System idea:

TANTALUS FIELD

The Tantalus Field is generated by a mysterious device whose operating principles are not fully understood, however its effect is deadly. Only a tiny elite cadre of senior officers have Tantalus Fields, and how they acquired them is a mortal secret.

Only one Legendary Captain in a given fleet may possess a Tantalus Field (there cannot be more than one active Tantalus Field in a given fleet). It costs no energy to use, can operate once per turn during the Marines Activity Stage, and can only be destroyed in a Hit and Run Raid (and only after its first use). The field cannot be used if the owning Legendary Captain is killed/captured.

The field can act in either of two modes. It can either eliminate an attacking BP (no die roll needed), or it can act as a Hit and Run Raid (D7.8) against any legal target within 1 hex (kill or destroy, not capture). The field cannot be used against a cloaked target.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 05:57 pm: Edit

John, "The" Empire is just a generic way of referring to the Earth/Terran/Solomani (j/k) empire.

Alan, so what was the logic? And can the logRoms count on being on a comparatively same footing as the U.S. was after the war?

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 06:01 pm: Edit

RBN,

Simple answer: The Terran Empire never develops the cloak, presumably for the same reasons the Federation didn't.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 09:08 pm: Edit

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Will the goatee-Vulcans retain their own fleet of ships (possibly might include their own designs) or have they been comepletely absorbed by The Empire and serve in whatever ships the humans allow?

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Why would the lRoms side with the Klingons?

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By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 11:58 pm: Edit

Whoops, typo! Sorry, I meant to call it the "Tentacles Device"

I musta fat-fingered the keyboard there...

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 12:22 am: Edit

R. Brodie
You must be ex-Navy only a squid would come up with that!
regards
Stacy

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 11:18 am: Edit

Q: Would the LogRomulans get the cloak?
SVC ANSWER: yes. They had the cloakium mines.

Q: Will the goatee-Vulcans retain their own fleet of ships
SVC Answer: No.
Q: or have they been comepletely absorbed by The Empire?
SVC ANSWER: They are RUNNING the empire.

Q: Why would the logRoms side with the Klingons?
SVC ANSWER: Balance of power.

Q: Why would the Western Allies side with the Soviet Union?
SVC ANSWER: Not sure we're going with that history.

Q: How the heck do the ISC end up on the side of the Terran Empire?
SVC ANSWER: Balance of power.

Q: Paravians have axe to grind against Gorns.
A: Perhaps ISC resent the Gorns being mean to Paravians and give them shelter?

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 11:19 am: Edit

Tantalus: not within license.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 12:04 pm: Edit

Q: Would the LogRomulans get the cloak?
SVC ANSWER: yes. They had the cloakium mines.

Not to mention the inspiration of the Ru'Ahkthur. (PDR Pg. 68)

By George Duffy (Sentinal) on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 02:22 pm: Edit

Ok... if the one big change is that Surak died and the logRomulans flee to Romuulus and the emoVulcans are running the "Terran Empire", then I have a question.

Why does the Terrans have to be the power that is the Empire?

It has been suggested that the Gorns are on more friendly terms and therefore do not hamper early warp development of the logRomulans. The question I have is this.

The reason that the Gorns were able to destroy early warp development of the original Romulans was because of their fractricidal government with separate households each vying for power. Now if the only change was Surak's death, then wouldn't it follow that the emoVulcans would also have this fracticidal government in place, where separate households (each with their own ally race from one of the original Fed member races) would divide up the Empire, each House having direct control and their allies running their districts?

House Aurllius with it Terran allies being the more promiment.

House Pentalion with it's Alpha Centarian allies as it's chief rivals

House Rama'ch as the upstarts with their Andorian allies

House Selnirak as the goverment-in-power with their Orion allies manipulating all of the other Houses so as to keep their power base.

House Notrub'llah controling the Tellerites, House Serigius working with the Rigelians, and House Antredies with their Cygnan allies making up the remaining major players

It's all there in the PD Romulans why change that as well?

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 02:34 pm: Edit

"Why do the Terrans have to be the power that is the Empire?"

SVC ANSWER:
1. I don't know that anyone said they were.
2. they are kinda pushy and grabby.

By John Sickels (Johnsickels) on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 02:48 pm: Edit

Well the Romulan great houses in the normal universe are decendents of the fragmented communities set up by the original exiles. I doubt that quite the same dynamic would have occured with the eVulcans.

I thought all along we were talking about a Vulcan Empire, perhaps in cooperation with the Terrans, yes, but not really a "Terran Empire" along Mirror Mirror lines. Personally I think a Vulcan Empire with Terrans providing the industrial muscle is more interesting than the piratical Terran Empire myself.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 03:08 pm: Edit

Personally, I think the ImperialFeds should have periodic changes in whoever is "on top". I think the ImperialFeds should be a violent ruthless meritocracy. So, whoever in charge at any given time is determined by who has been performing best at this particular time. ("Performing best", of course, meaning "killing your enemies while not getting killed by other enemies".)

So, we know that the Vulcans, Humans, Orions, and Andorians all have the drive and ambition to be "on top" at any given time. (The rest participate, they aren't "subjects" or anything. They just aren't as nasty as the Big Four.) So, right now, we can say Humans are in charge. Originally, it was the Vulcans. In between all four species have had someone in charge at one point or another.

I really don't think we should have a situation where "the Humans run the show" or "the Vulcans manipulate the show" or some such. So, I don't think we should have a "Terran Empire" or "Vulcan Empire". Rather I would like to see the "Imperium" or "Stellar Empire" or some such that doesn't identify a particular member, but rather treats them as a whole.

I think their "inclusive" view should be to the point that they would even gladly absorb the Klingon Empire and let the Klingons participate as an equal member. (Not that that could ever happen. The Klingons aren't willing to be any species equal! They really do want to be in charge.)

The point is not that the Vulcans or Humans are destined to rule the stars, but rather that the Imperium/Empire itself is destined to rule the stars.

I just don't see why "evil empire" necessarily means that only one species can be in charge. I figure that at some point an "evil" society would develop that believes in the supremacy of its ideology, not its biology.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 03:28 pm: Edit

The problem is that dreams (or illusions) of supremecy are always seated with the in-group. that group must have some kind of common identity: Same race, same culture, same religion, same something.

We want the Imperium to embrace a multi-species common culture. That means something has to occur that breaks the component races out of their traditional race-centric approaches, such as we see with the Western races. (the cats and dogs take "top of the food chain" to a whole other level)

maybe what was the Imperium is the only area of space to actually eject a "kings" race from their space. The one thing they could all agree on is that they don't like Big Brother managing their affairs.

By George Duffy (Sentinal) on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 03:55 pm: Edit

I thought all along we were talking about a Vulcan Empire, perhaps in cooperation with the Terrans, yes, but not really a "Terran Empire" along Mirror Mirror lines.

I thought so too. If there was only to be one major change (Surak's death), then I would think that their idealologies would have remained the same. I could see the logRomulan building a kind of Federation made up of different races that were subjugated in the original universe.

I also thought that the Household system was in place while still on Vulcan. Sort of the Noble Houses (emotional) verse the masses (logical)

By John Sickels (Johnsickels) on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 04:31 pm: Edit

Well, when i wrote PD Roms, I set up the "imperial ideology" that lost out to Surak in such a way that, if the imperials had won rather than being exiled, a Vulcan Empire would be the logical result.

I would assume that the Vulcan Empire would rise because the Vulcans (like the regular Romulans) used imperial expansion as the glue to hold their racial unity together.

If I were to write this, I'd have Surak dies early, as a result eVulcans with their imperial ideology win over the logiVulcans, who leave and go to Romulus/Remus. However, the eVulcans end up fighting amongst themselves for long enough that the Vulcan Empire doesn't rise until something like -Y300 or so (parallel to the rise of Emperor Tal, the first Romulan emperor in the regular timeline). The Old Kings limit Vulcan Empire expansion until they disappear in -Y25, then VE expands out, absorbs earth, etc., expanding at about the same rate as the normal timeline Federation.

Under such a scenario, we wouldn't have to change much Earth history at all....the VE would arrive a bit sooner, changing first contact from Y0 to, say -Y15 or something.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 05:22 pm: Edit

You mean perhaps post WW3 when the remaining Earth groups are still seriously unstable?

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 05:30 pm: Edit

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The problem is that dreams (or illusions) of supremecy are always seated with the in-group. that group must have some kind of common identity: Same race, same culture, same religion, same something.

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Under such a scenario, we wouldn't have to change much Earth history at all....the VE would arrive a bit sooner, changing first contact from Y0 to, say -Y15 or something.

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By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 05:56 pm: Edit

Correct. I am saying they should use their culture as the unifying force. Subjugation is a waste of resources, and there just aren't enough emoVulcans to conquer the galaxy fast enough. Better to indoctrinate and include than try to just enslave everyone. They just didn't count on the fact that the Humans, Orions, and Andorians would be such fast learners and efficient practitioners.

...which make them threats to the empire for all those sAme reasons. Until the Empire has a need for them and they have or develop a reason to be loyal.

The Eastern races have this same (few of us, many of you" problem and apparently manage. Also vulcans of any stripe have a "we're superior" vibe going even in the Prime-universe *Federation*, let alone the Romulans or any Reflection analogue. That has to be ealt with.

The emoVulcan racial superiority mindset has to be defeated without discrediting their "strong will survive" mindset, which we want to evolve into a ruthless meritocracy. This is true of all the Imperium's component races. All will start out with my-race racism and in all cases, that racism has to be destroyed or subverted over time.

Outside threats do this.

Tossing off the local Old King race for example.

or

Uniting in the face of aggression from a peer-power such as the Klingons.

or

Xenophobia resulting from the arrival of the Tholains.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 05:58 pm: Edit

What if the Vulcans play the kind of deal-maker role that the Tazol played for the Mæsron Alliance?


In that neck of the woods, the bat-like Wallimi (explorers) met both the Tazol (humanoid thinkers) and Vulpa (wolf-like warriors) when all three had non-tactical warp.

While the Tazol and Wallimi got on reasonably well, the Wallimi and Vulpa clashed in the Colonial War. That war only came to an end when the Tazol developed Tactical Warp, asserted themselves, and brokered the Treaty of Mæsra. According to the terms of the Treaty, all three species would work together to expand into the rest of the galaxy.

Things started to go off the rails once the Vulpa got a little more influence than the other Alliance members might have liked, however...


In this case, the Vulcans might have been held back by the Old Kings operating from Zeta Reticuli, then ran into the non-tactical fleets of the Andorians, Rigelians and so forth.

By the time of First Contact with Terra (public or otherwise - this might not preclude a secret effort to influence pre-warp humanity) - the Vulcans could, Terran 'help' or no, push to assert themselves over the other space-faring species in the region, and seek to broker a deal which would let the various mini-powers expand outwards as a common front.

As they expand, they could recruit the Orions and others.


Whether or not the balance of power between these 'allies' would shift in favour of one species over another - the way the military muscle of the Vulpa allowed them to dominate Mæsron politics for decades prior to the Collapse - is up for debate...

By John Sickels (Johnsickels) on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 06:19 pm: Edit

Loren: Yeah. In the regular Trek timeline, first contact is about 10-15 years after WW3. We could have the VE arrive about -Y10, just after WW3 but slightly before first contact in the regular timeline.

The VE arrives. Earth, just after WW3, is in no condition to put up much of a fight, so has no choice but to accept VE leadership. The VE uses humans as a subject race along a Klingon/Dunkar model perhaps at first. Once Earth gets back on its feet, humans begin taking a larger role in the Empire...since they have a higher birthrate and adapt to space and colonization more readily. But the Vulcans remain the main leaders.

Note that the VE doesn't HAVE to be an exact parallel to the normal timeline Romulans. Their ideology could differ somewhat...still Imperial in nature, but perhaps a bit less racist, enough at least that humans aren't just slave labor but are rather junior partners.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 06:38 pm: Edit

Why play nice with inferior races when you can conquor them?

By John Sickels (Johnsickels) on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 07:04 pm: Edit

Conquest is more expensive and often less efficient than co-option.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 08:20 pm: Edit

Klinks don't seem to have much trouble. Or the Lyrans/Kzinti.

Then you have the problem of getting them to buy into your worldview. If you don't, you're handing them guns to point at you.

Edit: the worldview of any vulcanoid race is going to be "we're better than you" unless or until it runs afoul of the Great Steamroller of Experience.

By John Sickels (Johnsickels) on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 09:16 pm: Edit

One of the biggest problems the Klingons have is their ineffecient, command and conquest-oriented economy.

I'm not saying the Vulcan Empire is nice. I'm saying that I would not want the Vulcan Empire to be a carbon copy of the Romulans or Klingons. I'd like it to be something unique, based on a logical (pun intended) extrapolation of Vulcan and Romulan historical trends.

Of course it's not my decision to make.