SVC,

So, have we reached the magic 47 yet?

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 08:57 am: Edit

Mike, put the trout down and back away slowly.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 09:02 am: Edit

47,sure, but 47 publishable worthy needed ships? Film at 11.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 09:13 am: Edit

Updated list...

Fed	LDN	-	YDN upgrade similar to C4B - has also been called a national guard DN or GDN
Fed	LSC	130	OCL Scout CL 32
Fed	OLC	-	(Old) Light Command Cruiser - Mike West
Fed	LCC	-	Upgraded YCC from Y2 (The National Guard ships from R8 cover a lot of Middle Years ground - upgrading Y-ship to "standard tech". There are a number of ships I'm putting in here to round out that list. Essentially an effort by the various races to upgrade Y-era ships while new warships built from the ground up come online.)
Fed	LTG	-	Upgrade of YTUG to "L" standards. Feds do not introduce the standard tech tug until Y135.
Fed	DDM	-	Early two photon version of the DD
Fed	DDG	-	Commando DD
Fed	DDT	-	Transport DD
Fed	DMS	-	Minesweeper DD
Fed	DDA	-	FEMA Administrator -DD
Fed	CL	-	Modern Light Cruiser - Proposal
Fed	FFH	-	Heavy Frigate - Proposal
Cygnan	YCA	-	Cygnans could be include if not in Y2. CL description puts their war in the middle years but the ships are very early years-ish.
Cygnan	YDD	-	Cygnans could be include if not in Y2. CL description puts their war in the middle years but the ships are very early years-ish.
Klingon	C4B	122	Upgraded YDN CL20. On the current Y2 List
Klingon	D7Z	141	CL13 - first use of Ph-1s by the Klingons according to the ship description in the log
Klingon	D6C	126	CL20
Klingon	D6N	136	CL20
Klingon	DT6	-	Proposals Board - Jeremy Gray - (I consider this one very thin but its out there so I included it)
Klingon	LD4D	-	Proposals Board - Michael C. Grafton
Klingon	E4M	-	Minesweeper
Romulan	KB+	-	King Bird upgrade (assumes ship is published in Y2)
Romulan	KC6	-	Conjectural Early DN
Romulan	KC4B	-	Conjectural YDN Upgrade
Romulan	Hawk Variants	162	BH scout and leader proposed - both would presumably not appear before the BH in Y162
Romulan	K2R	-	Conjectural Kestral G2 (or alternatively a E3)
Kzinti	LDN	-	YDN upgrade similar to C4B - has also been called a national guard DN or GDN
Kzinti	CLC	127	Light Command Cruiser CL20
Kzinti	CLD	140	Light Drone Cruiser CL20
Kzinti	CLM	152	Light Minesweeper Cruiser CL20
Kzinti	CLS	-	Light Cruiser Scout
Kzinti	LCL	-	Upgraded YCL from Y2
Kzinti	DD Variants	160	Commando/Scout/Mineweeper/Drone variants proposed - DD appears in Y160
Kzinti	AC	-	Armored Cruiser (an old proposal - essentially a Kzinit WCA improved (on the current Y3 list) brought up to standard tech.
Gorn	YDN+	-	YDN upgrade similar to C4B - has also been called a national guard DN or GDN
Gron	ECL	-	Early form of the Gorn CL with 20 warp. Move the YIS date of the Gorn CL back to around Y150.
Tholian	LWT	-	An early web tender using a Y-era freighter
Orion	LCA	-	Upgraded YCA from Y2
Orion	FLG	-	CL30
Hydran	PGS	-	Pegasus Scout CL22 (PGC PGG and PGF also remain unpublished outside of Captain's Log. CL indicates these classes entered service in the Y170s)
Hydran	LDN	-	YDN upgrade similar to C4B - has also been called a national guard DN or GDN
Hydran	LCC	-	Upgraded YCC from Y2. Possible the Hydrans upgraded a number of Y era ships between Y120 and Y140. They don't get around to "modern" designs at all until Y135.
Hydran	LDD	-	Upgraded YDD from Y2
Hydran	LTUG	-	Upgraded YTUG from Y2
Hydran	AMZ	-	Amazon middle years CL - proposed in the R12 thread.
Hydran	HOP	-	Hoplite middle years CL - proposed in the R12 thread.
Lyran	YDNH	-	Assumed YDN upgrade similar to C4B - on the current Y2 list - has also been called a national guard DN or GDN.
Lyran	LCL	-	Upgraded YCL from Y2
Lyran	LDD	-	Upgraded YDD from Y2
Lyran	CLS	-	Light Scout Cruiser (last hoorah in the Four Powers war)
Lyran	CLG	-	Commando Ship similar to Kzinti CLG
Lyran	CLM	-	Light Minesweeper Cruiser
Lyran	FFS	-	Frigate Scout
Lyran	FFG	-	Commando
Lyran	FFM	-	Minesweeper
WYN	LDD?	-	Pick a ship and throw the WYN a bone.
WYN	LDD?	-	Pick a ship and throw the WYN a bone.
ISC	LDN	-	YDN upgrade similar to C4B - YDN base hull on current Y3 list - has also been called a national guard DN or GDN
ISC	LCC	-	Upgrade base hull on current Y3 list
ISC	LCL	-	Upgrade base hull on current Y2 list
ISC	LDD	-	Upgrade base hull on current Y2 list
ISC	CAI	-	Interim Design for the middle years. With the publication of Y2 the ISC will have a round of designs appearing in the Y-era with nothing to replace them until Y160 (based on the MSC). Exception is the "L" upgrades. Presumably these ships would be roughly on par with other ships of the period (in terms of power weapons etc) rather than the strong Y160+ designs we know and love.
ISC	CLI	-	Interim Design for the middle years.
ISC	DDI	-	Interim Design for the middle years.
ISC	FFI	-	Interim Design for the middle years.
ISC	TGI	-	Interim Design for the middle years.
ISC	SRI	-	Interim Design for the middle years.
ISC	POLI	-	Interim Design for the middle years.
ISC	FF Variants	160	Scout/Commando/Minesweeper/Transport proposed - existing FF YIS is Y160 - these will either appear then or be based on an earlier design (FFI above)

There are 69 entries in the above list, but some are potentially duplicative, dead-on-arrival, or could blossum into multiple ships. As SVC said, some are probably not worthy of publication. Some would have YIS dates beyond Y160, which may not fit in the middle years context (depending on which definition you are using for the "Middle Years"). With little or no new rules, we are effectively talking about an R-module here, so even if the focus period is something like Y120-Y155, there is no reason that a few ships on the fringes couldn't also be included.

In putting this list together, I've tried not to be judgemental - just putting stuff on a list.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 09:30 am: Edit

Wagh.

http://www.starfleetgames.com/discus/messages/12031/16537.html?1179780423

Fed 'Medium' Destroyer, renamed 'Heavy Frigate'.

http://www.starfleetgames.com/discus/messages/12031/16525.html?1174717414

Fed 'Modern' Light Cruiser.

By James Cain (Jcain) on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 12:31 pm: Edit

I do not recall having ever seen a Fed Commando Destroyer or Destroyer Minesweeper before. Do intend those to be unbuilt designs? If not, how do you plan to explain the Fed. having Commando Frigates and Frigate Minesweepers later but not having any Commando Destroyer or Destroyer Minesweeper any longer?

By James Lowry (Rindis) on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 01:38 pm: Edit

Well, minesweepers seem to start coming in around Y150+ for everyone, so I assume that there couldn't be a big gap there. (No MS in F&E so I can't check the SIT for dates... :D )

As far as whether FF or DD variants should come first....

Given that the Fed SC is based off the DD hull, with the FFS coming much later, you could argue that the Federation intention was for the DD to be the 'variant hull'. This ended up being the CL instead when it was found to be cheap to upgrade them to modern technology. FF variants came later when the Federation started needing more mission variants at the start of the GW and DD and CL production was already stopped/winding down, and NCL production was still ramping up.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 02:47 pm: Edit

Keep in mind the Feds already have the CL-based MS (Y158, 94/80 BPV) and the CMC (Y125, 100/80 BPV), both of which are very good at their jobs, and fall within the same BPV range as the DD. Would the Feds operate two basically parallel designs with nearly the same capability? My impression of Fed shipbuilding before the GW is that the CL always bore the brunt of the load as a basis for variants, while DDs were used almost exclusively in more direct, warship roles, with no non-combat variants (I consider the scout a combat variant - the FEMA ship could change that). If I had to guess, the existance of those ships has precluded the appearance of DD based ships for the same purposes in the past.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 03:25 pm: Edit

Just to clarify a point in the other thread - the first I heard of an MY module is through talking with Mike West, he mentioned hope for it during the discussion over a Four Powers' War module for Fed Commander (a topic which saw two different interpretations on the go, but that's another story).


In terms of the Peladine, I'd like to see the historical ships which Jessica Orsini has on her site (http://peladine.com/ to those who don't know it) which were in service prior to the Lyran conquest - basically up to Y130.

So, that would be the YEX (the exploration ship they first used for warp-powered adventures, YIS listed as Y100 in the R-section) as well as the CA, CL, DD and FF (YIS Y121, in Jessica's MSC) POL (YIS Y125, from JMSC) Tug, cargo pod and troop transport pod (YIS Y130, JMSC).

A couple of those ships may be in Stellar Shadows, but it wouldn't hurt to have room for them here, so that one need not rely on more than one supplement to have a fairly comprehensive list of historical Peladine ships - while leaving SS for those who want to go nuts with alt-history scenarios.

And as an added bonus, perhaps a story could be added which postulates a Peladine deep-range colony fleet (including one or two of those tugs and pods) which could be written as having left the home system in early Y130 several months before the Lyrans launched their invasion, therefore missing the conquest and escaping undetected into the far reaches of the Delta Sector?

That would be a useful means of bringing the Peladine into a post-Andro War Alpha Octant setting.

(Or, it would be interesting if the exile Peladine eventually ran into the Carnivon exiles from the CL32 story His Last Command, somewhere deep in Delta...)

I'm not sure I agree with upgrading the ISC unified fleet too early, however. It makes a kind of sense to have the ISC reach TL12 in their own time - in other words, in Y160 - although I do acknowledge that it makes for quite an interesting coincidence that they would reach TL12 in the same year that they uncover the Gorns and Romulans!



One last point - I'd ask for consideration to be made for any CL or Pol variants for the Federation which get a YIS prior to Y130.

The reason being is that they would be in the data bank for the Aurorans, and would have an impact on the ship classes they were able to construct from their own shipyard.

Of course, even if the Aurorans rejected the hull designs in the data banks when building the likes of the CLA or other hull types, it would still mean that the Aurorans must have had a reason not to pick one of the data bank designs when building CLAs...

...or, perhaps, the opposite was the case, in that the Aurorans did use the Star Fleet data when designing the CLA.


So, if this project does become more than a collection of hopes and wishes, I would ask that the Terran-hull ship classes, if any, be designed with Aurora in mind.



One last note; before the Klingons showed up in Y171, it was just the Republic of Aurora - the 'Federal' part was added when Kraknora was admitted.

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 06:29 pm: Edit

Here is a list of ships that have a note of MS or MW.

Empire Type Rule YIS Unit Name
Andromedan MLS R10.35 YIS 166
Andromedan MMP R10.53 YIS 176
Britanian DWM R58.7 YIS 165
Canadi'en DWM R59.7 YIS 165
Deltan DWM R57.5 YIS 165
Federation DWM R2.70 YIS 176
Federation FFM R2.46 YIS 170
Federation FLG R2.86 YIS 134
Federation MS R2.21 Minesweeper YIS 158
Federation NMS R2.30 New Minesweeper YIS 175
Federation PFM R1.PF4 Thunderbolt-M Mine Warfare Fast Patrol Ship Thunderblast YIS 181
Flivver DWM R56.7 YIS 165
Frax CWM R51.35 YIS 170
Frax DWM R51.13 YIS 168
Frax PFM R1.PF4 YIS 179
General F-ML R1.12B Large Mine-Laying Freighter YIS 168
General F-MS R1.12A Small Mine-Laying Freighter YIS 168
Gorn FLG R6.59 YIS 138
Gorn FLG+ R6.6+ YIS 171
Gorn HMS R6.22 YIS 173
Gorn MS R6.15 Minesweeper YIS 168
Gorn Pter-M R1.PF4 Pterodactyl Plasma Mine Warfare Fast Patrol Ship YIS 182
Hispaniolan DWM R60.5 YIS 165
Hydran HAR-M R1.PF4 Harrier Mine Warfare Fast Patrol Ship YIS 180
Hydran INS R9.70 YIS 150
Hydran INS+ R9.70 YIS 167
Hydran MS R9.14 Picador Minesweeper YIS 168
Hydran NMS R9.35 YIS 173
ISC CPF R13.52 YIS 155
ISC FLG R13.51 YIS 142
ISC MS R13.19 Minesweeper YIS 168
ISC PFM R1.PF4 Mine Warfare Fast Patrol Ship YIS 183
Jindarians DMS R16.26 YIS 1
Jindarians PFM R1.PF4 YIS 182
Jindarians PRF R16.43 YIS 1
Klingon D5M R3.58 YIS 170
Klingon F5M R3.27 F5M Rear Hull YIS 168
Klingon F5M R3.27 Minehunter YIS 168
Klingon F5M-Bm R3.27 F5M Boom YIS 168
Klingon G1M R1.PF4 Mine Warfare Fast Patrol Ship YIS 179
Klingon G4 R3.96 YIS 130
Klingon G4B R3.96 YIS 169
Kzinti CLM R5.945 YIS 152
Kzinti FLG R5.70 YIS 139
Kzinti FLG+ R5.70 YIS 168
Kzinti MMS R5.30 YIS 172
Kzinti MRN-M R1.PF4 Multi-Role Needle Mine Fast Patrol Ship YIS 183
Kzinti MS R5.21 Small Minesweeper YIS 168
Kzinti PF-M R1.PF4 Mine Warfare Needle Fast Patrol Ship YIS 181
LDR Bob-M R1.PF4 YIS 178
LDR MPM R14.15 YIS 168
Lyran Bob-M R1.PF4 Bobcat Mine Warfare Fast Patrol Ship YIS 178
Lyran CWM R11.26 YIS 172
Lyran DWM R11.42 YIS 168
Lyran FLG R11.60 YIS 136
Lyran FLG+ R11.60 YIS 168
Lyran MS R11.8 Minesweeper YIS 168
Orion BUC-M R1.PF4 Buccaneer Mine Warfare Fast Patrol Ship YIS 180
Orion FLG R8.A1 YIS 150
Qari P7M R1.PF4 YIS 179
Romulan CEN-M R1.PF4 Centurion Mine Warfare Fast Patrol Ship YIS 182
Romulan FLG R4.120 YIS 165
Romulan FLGR R4.120 YIS 171
Romulan K5M R4.64 YIS 168
Romulan PEL R4.8 Pelican Minesweeper YIS 164
Romulan SKD - Mod R4.N2 Skyhawk-D Minesweeper Module YIS 168
Romulan SKD R4.24 Skyhawk-D Minesweeper YIS 168
Romulan SPD R4.17 Sparrowhawk-D Minesweeper YIS 168
Romulan STH-M R1.PF4 Starhawk Mine Warfare Fast Partrol Ship YIS 184
Seltorian MS R15.10 YIS 183
Seltorian PFM R1.PF4 YIS 183
Tholian Ar-M R1.PF4 Arachnid Mine Warfare Fast Patrol Ship YIS 180
Tholian CWM R7.24 YIS 179
Tholian MS R7.13 Minesweeper YIS 168
Triaxian PFM R1.PF4 YIS 181
Wyn AxMS R12.11 Auxiliary Minesweeper YIS 165
Wyn PF-M R1.PF4 Freedom Fighter Mine Warfare Fast Patrol Ship YIS 183

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 08:42 pm: Edit

Re: the Peladine

Gary:

I asked about the Peladine on the Y2 topic and got this response from SPP:

"The Peladine are in a unique situation in that they are introduced in Stellar Shadows which shows a powerful fleet, but their actual history pretty much says they had nothing to fight with when the Lyrans arrived. Gurps says they were at TL 9, i.e., about the same place as the Romulans when the Lyrans conquered them. They had not spread out into space, but were on the verge of doing so."

This is different from what’s on Jessica’s website. She notes that all her designs are conjectural:

“With the exception of the CA, CL, DD, FF, Pol and a small handful of variant designs -- all of which were historical designs built within ten years prior to the Lyran conquest”

From Jessica’s history it would appear that the Peladine had a small modern fleet and had expanded their empire to neighboring systems before being conquered over the space of a week by the Lyrans in Y140. However, from SPP’s comments I would assume that this proposed history was rejected prior to the publication of the GURPS Sourcebook.

If there was any move to reconsider that decision the following Peladine Ships were in service prior to the Lyran Conquest and would therefore be considered historical:

CC Command Cruiser YIS 135
CA Heavy Crusier YIS 121
SR Survey Cruiser YIS 135
CD Drone Cruiser YIS 138
CL Light Cruiser YIS 121
COM Commando Cruiser YIS 125
DDL Destroyer Leader YIS 135
DD Destroyer YIS 121
FF Frigate YIS 121
PolC Police Leader YIS 140
Pol Police Ship YIS 125
TUG Tug YIS 130
YEX Early Years Survey C YIS 100

Total: 13 Ships

In addition there are two “historical” designs which served after the conquest:

PCA Captured Cruiser in Lyran Service
PDD Captured Destroyer in Lyran Service

Which brings our total to 15 (only 3 of which were published in the SSJ)

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, February 08, 2008 - 04:19 pm: Edit

I'd drop any of the ships with a YIS set after Y130 - it would make sense for them not to have the same range of specialist or command ships as the battle-hardened Lyrans would have landed on their doorstep.


Also, if there is an idea to let the ISC develop an interim TL12 fleet prior to Y160, I'd request that at least some of the racial ships being discussed for Y2 be converted into some form of local defence ship, or equivalent of a Free/Prime Trader, or some other such use.

I like the idea that in the isolated Concordium, there was competition among the shipyards producing Five Race ships to claim a slice of the civilian market, even if the fleet and police have moved on to unified-era designs.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 01:48 am: Edit

A note about potential Orion Pirate ships for a MY module - or, at least, ships which could serve as interim raiders while the newer range of CRs, LRs et al enter more widespread service:

*LCR (Local Despoiler Raider Cruiser)
*LLR (Local Despoiler Light Raider)
*LSL (Local Despoiler Slaver)
*LVK (Local Despoiler Viking)


Just as the sedantary empires made use of upgraded YCAs and others for second-line use, perhaps the Cartels would have upgraded their pre-existing fleets of YCRs and so forth to make the most of the hulls while building up their stocks of CRs, LRs, CAs and other TL12 ships.


Such ships could have true option mounts and phaser-1s - and perhaps even access to cloaks (or veiling devices if operating before cloaks become widely available) and engine doubling?

This could make them competitive against the likes of LCAs - and still very useful in Romulan space prior to Y160 - but keep them at a lower level from the newer ships each Cartel would have to operate.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 12:48 am: Edit

As posted on the other boards, a conjectural B6 could be interesting - as might a conjectural (or not? Maybe the third one listed as destroyed was lost while in Romulan service...) Kestrel conversion of the LD5.

By John Sickels (Johnsickels) on Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 02:00 pm: Edit

I suggest National Guard versions of the Klingon D4C and Federation YCC command cruisers found in Y2.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 04:21 pm: Edit

Well, you need to be careful with all of the "national guard" stuff. It would not be very difficult to just go nuts and make "national guard" versions of just about everything from Y1 and Y2. But what would that contribute? Is that really necessary?

Personally, I would much rather see more "period" ships (e.g. D6C) than a whole bunch of upgraded EY ships. I can figure those out on my own. I want the period ships.

The "national guard" ships should only be used as "filler" to even out counts and stuff like that. Some of those ships is OK, but I can easily see it getting out of hand.

By Steve Cain (Stevecain) on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 02:32 am: Edit

RE: Fed DD commando & Minesweeper variants
Not that I like the idea of the designs much; but one can ‘eliminate’ the DD hull commando and minesweeper variants in a number of ways. One would be to say that the cruisers (read old CL) were needed as gun cruisers. Outdated lollipop DDs were given engine upgrade and stripped of heavy equipment allowing a few more years to be squeezed out of them. Of course the National Guard is going to put those old photon torp parts to good use. Over time as more Republic, etc. cruisers come on line the much more rugged and better-suited old CL hulls are used for these duties more than they had been. Problem: Y2 creates a can of worms. Solution: low number in service in Y2 v. Middle Years needs.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, June 02, 2009 - 05:07 pm: Edit

Now that the Middle Years have been covered in Federation Commander (thanks to Briefing 2), there are a couple of interesting options regarding what might be available for an equivalent SFB module.


The Middle Years Fed OCA from B2 could be a neat option, as would the Lyran Royal Panther BCE.


(Oh, has the Light Monitor already been published in an SFB module?)


Scenario-wise, one could see SFB ports of the likes of Mercy or Death and Here Today... Gone Tomorrow? alongside the SFB version of The Battle of Iridima VII, as shown in Captain's Log.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, June 03, 2009 - 10:14 am: Edit

Light monitor is in R11.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, June 03, 2009 - 06:02 pm: Edit

And don't forget the Royal Leopard and Royal Cheetah ...

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Wednesday, June 03, 2009 - 07:29 pm: Edit

I'll be honest. If Module "YM" adds some neat new ships in for the period, I'm all for it, and would love to see it.

But if the bulk - or even a significant fraction - of the module is "Look, we nerfed the (Gorn CL/Fed DD/Whatever) SSD so it fits better with the time period, even tho the ship's been in the game for 20+ years with that YIS on the SSD"... err. I hope the module gets delayed by many Fed Commander products until 2012, and the Mayan apocalypse.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, June 04, 2009 - 10:45 am: Edit

I have never understood what this product would be. I don't see any "need" for the SSDs (which already exist if you just ignore the refits), or enough sales potential to do that much work. We've already printed a lot of scenarios from this time period. I just don't grasp what the "product" here is. maybe I could see a few SSDs showing up in Captain's Log, but I don't see a
"Product".

By Jack Anthony Jones (Designered) on Thursday, June 04, 2009 - 07:13 pm: Edit

But do the SSDs for these unrefitted ships have their Crawford boxes? (jk) (ducks and runs for cover from all directions)

By Sean O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Friday, June 05, 2009 - 12:22 am: Edit

Do Crawford boxes get refits? "After Y175, the shaded portions of the Crawford box become active"...

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, June 05, 2009 - 09:29 am: Edit

SVC posted:

Quote: "By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 01:09 am: Edit

People talk about this thing like it's a real product. I've never said so, but let's see if you can show me 47 ships (from the Y2-Y3 list) that should go into it.

Go on, show me. Give me a list. As many as you can. I saw at least 3 in the y2 argument."

Comment:

I could be in error, but it seems to be that this "product" is not a traditional rule module at all, but is rather an expansion / miscellaneous catchall of things published in various Captains logs but not yet included in R module. (see lists posted above in this thread).

There are a number of other proposals that could fit, but haven't been selected for a Captains Log.