Yeah, another Photon Torpedo thread...

This is a spin-off off John Trauger's "Y200 Standard-tech Hulls" thread over in "New Ships." This proposal is intended for post-war (Y2C) construction to make conventional ships competitive with X-ships. (I presume this could be applied to X-ships, though personally I wouldn't want to see it happen.)

In a nutshell, Size Class 4 and smaller units have the option of being built with Light Photons instead of standard Photons, while Size Class 2 and larger units have the option of being built with standard Photons that can be double overloaded. Basic restriction: the class of Photon is decided in the design phase, and only one class is built into the hull.

Light Photon: essentially the mini-Photon that's gone around Star Fleet Universe discussions since the game began. Can only be built on SC4 and smaller units; gives these units more firing opportunities than they would have with standard Photons and more torpedo boxes to hit. Costs less to arm (2-4 warp) and hits with less crunch power (4-8pt), but otherwise uses standard Photon rules.

Heavy Photon: a modified standard Photon that can only be built in SC2 and larger units. A ship can arm as either standard Photon (8pt), standard overload Photon (16pt), or heavy overload Photon (24pt). Units firing anything more than four heavy overloads in the same turn suffer shock effects, but Starbases (specifically) do not suffer shock effects. Heavy overload cannot use fast loading rules (just-in-case provision).

BPV: Assume two Light Photons cost the same as one standard. Add 3 BPV each for the first four Heavy Photons, and 2 BPV for each of the rest (3 BPV each for all in Starbase construction).

By Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Sunday, November 01, 2009 - 09:33 pm: Edit

And another thing...

While it makes sense that Light Photons could be installed in units larger than SC4, the idea here is to give smaller units more flexibility with their Photons (and more boxes to hit). Thus they are limited to SC4 and smaller units as a design philosophy and not for any technological mumbojumbory.

The idea behind the Heavy Photon is to let SC2 units retain their "pee off" factor by discouraging X-ships from approaching too closely. I don't think it would be a good idea to give SC3 units the Heavy Photon, but if it were done add a rule that says SC3 units suffer shock effects if they fire anything more than two heavy overloads in a turn. Most likely a really bad idea to install them in anything smaller than SC3.

This kind of leaves cruisers in the lurch, but that could be alleviated by giving them fast loaders (which personally I'm not a fan of as it turns photons into expensive disruptors); maybe one-turn standard loads and two-turn overloads.

Maybe the Feds give the Tholians the Light Photon... dunno...

By Sean O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 02:35 am: Edit

Light photons already exist in the Omega sector, IIRC. For the Federal Republic of Aurora.

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 10:37 pm: Edit

P6 already published mini-photon rules (E108.4, pg 12).

By Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Monday, November 09, 2009 - 10:12 pm: Edit

Idea for Y2C cruisers (Size Class 3 units):

Cruiser Photon: (for lack of a better name) SC3 units get the standard Photon (8/16pt), but when overloaded it has the option of firing a series of 4pt "sub-munitions." Basically take the overload warhead and divide by four (round down) and that's how many "subs" you get to fire (so 2, 3, or 4 depending on how much arming power you apply). I don't know how much BPV to add, but start with 2/tube and experiment from there. Restrictions: must fire all "subs" within 'x' number of impulses (1, 2, 4, 8?) and can't be held over to another turn once firing starts (standard 1/4-turn delay applies after firing final "sub").

This gives cruisers more firing opportunities without an actual increase in warhead yield or number of torpedo tubes, but damage potential should trend up. Again, the intent is to make conventional ships competitive with X-ships.

(This proposal assumes no fast overload Photons for conventional ships)

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, November 09, 2009 - 11:54 pm: Edit

I think that the four submunition should have to be fired at the same time but at the same of different targets. However, the ship can only target as many enemy units with photons as there are undamaged photon tubes on the ship per impulse.

This could still be considered a real problem for shuttle/fighters.

By Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 12:04 am: Edit

Good point about the number of targets.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 03:04 pm: Edit

shotgun your photon!

Hate to say it but if shotgunning costs extra power for a plasma, it should cost more for a photon.

Suggest:

Cost: 2 pts of warp power per tube shotgunned.

Produces current photon warhead/4 submunitions. round fractions down.

Cannot be held.

Must be done at Energy allocation

OL photons and standard load photons may be converted. Prox photons cannot.

Once converted to shotgun, the photon may not be converted back.

Additional warheads may NOT be made with reserve warp.

Shotgun range does not exceed OL range, regardless of the photon that was converted. Shotguns are not any kind of "prox" photon.

X-photons may not fastload a shotgun.

By Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 04:41 pm: Edit

I reckon the fact that Photons specifically require warp power to arm, no additional energy cost is needed. All the same, if the aforementioned isn't balanced then 1 or 2pts per tube seems reasonable.

And note that this "sub-munition" thing is intended only for "cruiser" Photons. Wouldn't apply to the Light or Heavies posted above. (I suppose it could apply to the Heavies, but that might be a bit too much... or maybe not... dunno...)

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 05:23 pm: Edit

+1/2 point per submunition?

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 05:55 pm: Edit

I thought about that. I'd personally rather the photon pay as if it were shotgunning a fully OLed photon and let the player decide if he wants to use the option on less.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 06:04 pm: Edit

Well, you'd have a minimum of two since a regular photon is two 4 pointers according to the proposal. So the option would cost a minimum of 1 extra power. I think this decision should have to be made during EA (at any point of arming) and commit the tube to one type or the other.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 06:32 pm: Edit

My suggestions above would have it at EA only.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 06:56 pm: Edit

That's what I meant. EA on first turn or second or subsequent holding turns.

By Jonathan Jordan (Arcturusv) on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 07:37 pm: Edit

If you limited submunitions to firing at only the same target, should it require extra energy? I mean I see why plasma shotguns are the way they are. A single plasma cruiser can shotgun and wreck a PF floatilla or frigate squadron, etc. Or at least seriously put some hurt on them. If you stick with it being only on the same target for photons though it becomes little more than a neat trick to get a better shot at a hit (But with how I roll with Photons I'd still miss with every one, even at range two). Course this is something I wouldn't want to let any photon to do (Much less the Heavies), have it just be an ability that specific ship's can do due to design rather than some setting on any.

Course I wouldn't mind some form of it that punished the superstack either. Even if it was horribly broken like "Get one submunition for every target in a hex". But that's just me.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 07:49 pm: Edit

A plasma shotgun costs more power because it does more damage - oddly enough, the same as an EPT for the same power. The photon shotgun doesn't do more damage, so I don't think it should take more power...

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 08:28 pm: Edit

But there should be some cost because it increases its value against attrition units a LOT.

By Jonathan Jordan (Arcturusv) on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 08:47 pm: Edit

Dunno if it's all that much more effective against attrition units. Year 200 any attritional units that remain, rare as they are according to the background, right? Would take more than the four points to cripple after all. And with only four shots at them with a weapon that has a penalty for firing at small targets, if I remember right, and has poor chances to hit anyway... I don't see it as that effective. Plus all the enemies the feds fight don't use direct fire fighters or attrition units in general, so they can stand off from Overload range. Meaning they get small target modifers and at most only 2 shots at them. Hardly that much of an increase against attrition units as I see it.


Unless you want me to have that "One shot at every target in a hex" shotgun style. Because I'd LOOOOOVE that. And mock anyone that stacked fighters in one hex anyway. ;)

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 09:23 pm: Edit

Photons take a - to hit drones, not shuttles.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 10:08 pm: Edit

Asside from the standard Small Target Modifier that all weapons face. IIRC, R8 and less is not affected.


Would there be a proximity fuse for this style of arming?


And I hate to say it, but how would the disruptor races balance out? Maybe after a certain year no burnout UIM becomes standard?


I keep thinking this would be a nice X2 thing. It would go with the concept of fewer heavier phasers.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 10:30 pm: Edit

There *can't* be a prox version of this. Not when the possibility of shotgunning OL torps exists. It would further encourage large fleet games to slug it out at range-30.

Oh sure you could split a prox into 2 2-pt torps, but why?

By Jonathan Jordan (Arcturusv) on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 10:46 pm: Edit

*shrug* I wouldn't mind that myself. And I don't even play UIM using races. Then again my opponents have great luck and will tag me with 11 out of 12 Disruptor bolts at max range quite regularly with no burnouts, so it'd have no effect on my play anyway.

By Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 10:37 am: Edit

To clarify: my intent was to make conventional units more competitive against X-ships. Attrition units weren't the target here. If this proposal makes them more effective against a-units, fine. If not, it wasn't the intent in the first place so it's still fine. X-ships (and bases for that matter) were my first consideration here.

Plus I wanted to keep it relatively simple by making any "special" functions part of the overload.

$0.02

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 12:06 pm: Edit

I don't see this as being effective against X-ships. By dividing the warhead into multiple hit rolls you will be ensuring a more average damage curve, but X-ships have an EW advantage that will apply to each roll individually. With large power reserves crunch is what is needed to fight X-ships; you either hit big and dive in for the follow-up or you miss big and get out of town. X-ships can fend off the soft hits all day long.
None X-ships have to fight X-ship almost like fighting Andros.

By Douglas E. Lampert (Dlampert) on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 01:54 pm: Edit

I'm with Loren, if you want to improve Photons against X ships you need something that makes them more accurate (so they can hit through EW) or that INCREASES crunch (so if they do hit the X ship can't simply reinforce from battery and bounce the shot).

I'll suggest two possibilities. (1) short range proximity torpedoes. Photons may be fired as proximity torpedoes at ranges 2+, this option MAY be applied to overloaded photons. +2 to hit, 1/2 damage.

(2) Coordinated fire. A group of size class 3 or smaller non-X ships in the same hex with the same speed, facing, and hull-type, with no damage to the sensor or scanner track on any ship, and all in command, and including a command variant of that hull type may fire any desired heavy weapons on the command ship and up to 2 of the other ships as a single narrow volley using the EW status of the command ship to determine the chance of hitting. Any given ship may participate in Coordinated fire at most once per turn and not within 8 impulses of any other coordinated fire by that ship.