John, refresh my memory-- what questions are still pending?

Rob, that isn't a rules question. You are hereby beaten about the head and shoulders with the dreaded #7 Griswold cast-iron skillet.

(The #7 is used as it isn't the official WebMom weapon.)

By Howard Bampton (Bampton) on Friday, November 27, 2009 - 09:00 pm: Edit

I have drafted a preliminary ruling for Jean, John, and Mike to review on ACD and what things can substitute for a ship to get you to 5+ in combat.

I've put any other things that were ruled on in my notes file for the rulebook errata/rewrite whenever we do it.

If there is an item beyond the first two that you think should be run by the GMs, let me know.

By ROBERT l cALLAWAY (Callaway) on Friday, November 27, 2009 - 09:49 pm: Edit

It been almost 6 month that makes a rules question (doning kelvar vest, helment and shin guards

NE TOOK COLORADO TEXAS UP NEXT SATURDAY nc IN A BOWL?

By John Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Friday, November 27, 2009 - 10:58 pm: Edit

Hi Jean,

My question is (in a nut shell) "are non-MRR squadrons in supply if they are in a MRR hex"?

Howard had interesting opinions. But, I've not heard the "offical" answer.

To review (without rereading past posts), assuming proper MRR support, a squadron of survey ships is in supply. But, the same is true if a squardon contains other ships and at least one survey ship. This would be true for three squadrons, each containing a survey ship.

So, assuming the same number of ships (for my example), one squadron containing only survey ships and three squadrons of non-survey ships (the non-MRR squadrons), would they all be in supply in the MRR hex?

John

By Jean Sexton (Jsexton) on Friday, November 27, 2009 - 11:37 pm: Edit

John, I don't see how anything in the rules supports non-MRR-ship SQs being in supply in an MRR hex. Rule (B3.15a) specifically lists those ships that will not run out of supplies as long as they are next to the owning empire's surveyed hex. While you might have non-SR ships [and also ships not listed in (B3.15a)] attached to a SQ, you will either have to break them off and move them back into supply, have some ship run them supplies, or have them run out of supplies and eventually go boom. The SRs cannot supply ships (B3.152) unless they have optional cargo pods attached. Rule (B3.80) implies that the SRs must be in one SQ as the fourth SR can be added to "a squadron".

By John Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 01:28 pm: Edit

Hi Jean,

This is disturbing, that the non-survey ships in the same squadron as the survey ship are considered out-of-supply. This seems wrong to me. (I recall Howard's opinion that a squadron with a survey ship would be in supply.)

The last sentence of (B3.15a) "As long as an SR, F-OL, F-PL, F-PS, F-OP, CPL, or CPP is adjacent to the owning empire's surveyed territories, the ship will not run out of supplies." perhaps is vague. I have construed this to mean any ship/squadron present would be in supply as long as these specifically listed ships are present.

Hence my question (it is vague).

"(B3.30) Up to 3xSRs (of the SR class) may work in a hex at the same time." -- this does not imply that they have to be in the same squadron (though I personally do put them in the same squadron for simplicity's sake).

An interesting tidbit is "(E4.20) Ships being used for MRR are considered to be in the Strategic Defense. This is the only case where SD can be used with military ships." -- The mention of military ships implies (to me anyway) that a squadron may consist of a survey ship and other ships and be in supply.

John

By ROBERT l cALLAWAY (Callaway) on Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 03:17 pm: Edit

John the amount of supplies that a MRR sq needs is small and mainly non military in nature beans and butter as it were. A military sq needs beans, butter, drones, and other items not required by an MRR thus one F-L every other turn might keep the MRR sq in supply. The military sq might need 2 F-L & 2 F-S every turn.
The reasoning seems to be that there are no location/route beacons in the unsurveied space, which seems wrong to me if a SC can survey one hex a turn and can have sq in supply at the begaing of the next turn then a unsurvey hex next to a survied hex should doable

By Matthew Scull Mat (Mscull) on Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 03:57 pm: Edit

I'd join this line of questioning but I have no understanding of the MRR rules as they are let alone whats missing

By Jean Sexton (Jsexton) on Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 06:24 pm: Edit

John, (E4.20) refers to the Merchant Marine. SRs are military ships. The MRR ships in the MM are deployed into the SD (when being used to do MRR) and work with the military ships (SRs) to do MRR. I believe that is the intent of that rule.

If I recall correctly from working on the GC RB, the word "ship" is not used to replace the word "squadron". Thus the "ship" not being out of supply does not equate with the "squadron" not being out of supply. I think if we meant for "any SQ that contains one of these ships" is not out of supply, we'd have written that. The way the sentence parses out is "As long as an SR, F-OL, F-PL, F-PS, F-OP, CPL, or CPP is adjacent to the owning empire's surveyed territories, the ship [an SR, F-OL, F-PL, F-PS, F-OP, CPL, or CPP] will not run out of supplies."

Remember that doing MRR is a full-time job and the ships must work together. I don't know if an AM would be required to have them "act together" were they not in a single SQ or not. Like you, I always deploy multiple SRs in a single SQ. I do it in part because they are less vulnerable that way.

Rob, eventually for game design, you must draw a line in the sand and say "HERE you are out of supply." Unowned space is that line. Maybe supplies start petering out halfway through the surveyed hex. It doesn't matter. It's an on-off switch, not a dimmer.

By John Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 11:13 pm: Edit

Hi Jean,

I agree, I think the intent was to say that the only military ship allowed into the MRR/SD is the SR. (Note, E4.20 - the plural "military ships" is used. In my arguements, I construed this to mean any military ship, implying a military squadron containing at least one SR. Perhaps clarification is needed.)

Granted, that is the other meaning of "ship". (Though technically, a group of ships is called a squadron.)

Ah well, that is why I asked the question, the rule was not clear. Another interpretation could be construed.

I shall consider my question answered (i.e. non-MRR squadrons are not in supply in an MRR hex). "Parsing" is clearer!

In a past game, I used the MM equivalent of a SR (F-EL/F-ES) for a MRR. As the F-EL/F-ES can not command anything, I had them in separate squadrons (i.e. a squadron containing 1 ship!), working together. The MRR was active and producing. They were not AM'd.

John

By ROBERT l cALLAWAY (Callaway) on Sunday, November 29, 2009 - 12:39 am: Edit

Note Fe-L ect a CC1 can alway control one other ship.

By Jean Sexton (Jsexton) on Sunday, November 29, 2009 - 08:56 am: Edit

Rob is correct. The minimum Command Rating is 1, no matter how many reductions there are (CAN-3, poor crew, etc.). Thus a SQ of two ships is always legal.

By John Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Sunday, November 29, 2009 - 10:12 pm: Edit

Oooooh, I missed that one. The F-EL has a 0 command rating listed in the annex. Live and learn!

John

By Christopher Braun (Beancounter) on Friday, December 04, 2009 - 03:35 pm: Edit

Some questions regarding converting ships...

Some ships I have been converting to SFBGQ have me or my players puzzled.

DD/DW/FF sized transport ships - to they qualify fot the Tug bonus? (I'm only asking for completion and because of one really unorthodox player, I understand that they're a relative waste of a conversion slot).

Fast CW class ships - Most CW classes are already Speed 4 (with HPM tech). Is there any point in building these ships in GQ, or are they an unfortunate victim of rules conversion?

PF Transport Pods and Fighter Conveyor Pods - do these have any tactical purposes, or are they purely strategic?

War Dreadnoughts - would these be "new" ships, or are they SC-2 conversions of their base hulls (CW/DNL for the most part)?

Spare fighters - given the abstract nature of damage, should it be best to use those spares to add to the DF of the damaged squadron to bring it back up to it's max?

Thanks!

By Howard Bampton (Bampton) on Friday, December 04, 2009 - 05:26 pm: Edit

DD/DW/FF tugs- it is a waste of a conversion slot. We never ruled on that one. I'll add it to the future fix list. I suggest +7 for SC2 tugs, the standard +5 for SC3, and +3 for SC4 ones until we explicitly address it.

Fast CW hulls- no different in GC in terms of speed than regular CW hulls.

FCR, pods, and other sources of spare attrition units. Would allow reloads (from spares) when out of supply. They also mid turn reloads. They are also useful for smuggling spares into a base or system cut off from the supply grid.

War DNs- build it in a SC2 shipyard, no conversion needed. Convert it from something else- uses SC2 conversion.

Spare fighters- first off your players have to build them and load them on the ship (many GC players do not). If they are there, they would be used to bring the squadron back up to strength.

By Christopher Braun (Beancounter) on Friday, December 04, 2009 - 06:20 pm: Edit

Howard, thanks once again for the input.

Have thought of another idea for the future fix list - my really earlier question on refits (specifically the Plasma Sabot).

I know for the heavier ships, most refits can add some extra crunch power (especially drone ships). Therefore, I propose that refits that are a part of normal research (pretty much everything but UIM, PP, and a couple of others) are added to the cost of all units, whether or not they are effective in GC.

I reason this based on my understanding of SFB, in which once refits were made available, they were almost always applied to new construction as part of normal construction. I can see it balancing the better refits with 'wasting' an EP or two on smaller ships where there might not be a benefit.

Thoughts?

By Howard Bampton (Bampton) on Friday, December 04, 2009 - 09:08 pm: Edit

It is generally assumed that new builds are built with their expected refits, just like the various SFB rules that make certain refits mandatory. Older ships are not forced to be refitted (generally; Randomizer would be an exception that I can think of off hand where it is all or nothing). Deployment locations, base locations, in process conflicts, etc. often keep ships out in the field for long periods of time. [The Romulans with historically constrained NTW->1st generation warp, and 1st->2nd generation warp for example couldn't have refitted their fleet at the "historical" rate and in U1 were building NTW WB/Hawk/Snipe hulls with poor crews while upgrading their Vultures, Falcons and Hawks that had normal crews to tactical warp...]

A player can opt to use R&D to move up the date of their +/R/B/K/power-pack/side-phaser/Sabot/whaterver/ refits to get the AF/DF "bump".

I agree that there are some ship/refit combinations that are particularly good or bad. The Kzinti FF (might be FF based scout) is one where the + refit makes no difference. There are others where the refit is more effective. It kind of goes with the ~7x reduction in granularity from SFB BPVs to GC AF/DF values.

While most refits are done to new construction, there are "wishy-washy" ones like the Klingon K refit to support hulls, and the Federation R refit on cruisers, where there is a phase in period of many years in the published history. The exact mix is empire specific and better placed in the player empire special rules if the GM is concerned about players min-maxing every last AF/DF out of their build costs.

By Matthew Scull Mat (Mscull) on Saturday, December 05, 2009 - 02:43 pm: Edit

Speaking of Conversions Do Lyran Trimarans Take a conversion slot if they are built that way as new?

I understand that a Catamaran can be converted into a trimaran.
I guess my question is can a trimaran be built that way without building it as a Catamaran and then converted to a trimaran

By ROBERT l cALLAWAY (Callaway) on Saturday, December 05, 2009 - 02:58 pm: Edit

That a conversat only if your going up CL/CA CA/BC CA/CV A STRAIGHT build is no

By Howard Bampton (Bampton) on Saturday, December 05, 2009 - 03:41 pm: Edit

Rob is correct (minus some typo'd examples)- a direct build BC would not be a conversion. A CL being built and converted during building into a BC would count (I can not think of a reason to do that).

The one corner case I can think of where it might be worth the slot would be build a FF (20% discount hull, in a specialized SY (15% more), that is automated (10%)- 45% total) and then converting it into a DW (24% maximum discount).

By Christopher Braun (Beancounter) on Monday, December 07, 2009 - 12:03 am: Edit

Question: I've seen mentioned a few times now a 20% discount on FF hulls. Is this a racial thing or a flat rule (never seen it mentioned in the rulebook, just the CW/DW bulk discount)?

Thanks.

By Jean Sexton (Jsexton) on Monday, December 07, 2009 - 12:25 am: Edit

Hush Christopher! You are on the verge of revealing Things Players Were Not Meant To Know!



Some empires might indeed have such a rule for them alone -- that could explain why so many FFs were there historically for a particular empire.

By ROBERT l cALLAWAY (Callaway) on Monday, December 07, 2009 - 09:04 am: Edit

THAT RULE IS THE ONLY REASON THE GORN WOULD EVER BUILD A FF THAT AND SENDING POOR CREW TO DIE AND NOT TAKE A CA HULL WITH IT

By John Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Monday, December 07, 2009 - 09:58 am: Edit

No need to hush it up! In my opinion, all empires have such a rule (though not in the rulebook). The GM's like to "flavor" the races. It is not just the 20% discount on FF/DD class ships. There are other racial characteristics. These are the ones to keep secret!

To keep the players off balance, the GM's change them between games. Having played the ISC and Triaxians twice, I know this to be true!

Based on my ovservations of the ship choices of Jean's Gorns, I have an idea of what one of them is. But, I'm not telling!

By William Gary Glattli II (Wglattli) on Monday, December 07, 2009 - 06:00 pm: Edit

While the 20% discount ship is USUALLY a FF or DD design, this is not always the case. To give you an idea of what I am talking about, in U4, the discount ship for the Kzinti's, (that is me by the way), is the CL, not the FF.

Gary