I'd like to get this discussion started with an actual "Help newer players" rundown of Kzinti general tactics. I'm not precicely the best to give it (being a fairly new player myself), but here goes my best. Anyone who sees an error (and there are likely to be a few), just correct me.

Kzinti ship traits:

1) Kzinti specialize in Drone warfare. Even their lighter ships have upwards of 6 Drone racks plus dedicated ADD racks, and they also tend to have Cargo spaces stuffed full of reloads.

2) Following this, many Kzinti ships are able to control double their Sensor rating in drones at once, unlike most other ships.

3) Again following point one, use of Drones as primary offensive (and significant defensive) weapons means that they tend to be energy-rich despite having relatively little actual power generation.

4) Non-drone weaponry tends to be a small number of Ph-1, with several Ph-3 backing it up. The 3s usually have good firing arcs for defensive use, the 1s very limited.

5) Toughness tends to be middle of the road or slightly lower for its class, but remember that in may cases there will be spare power for shield reinforcement.

6) Lastly, many Kzinti ships (especially the ones THEY call drone-dedicated) have Special Sensor units. The uses here are many and varied (and, I'll admit, beyond my immediate expertise).

Kzinti ship tactics:

Firstly, any drone speed upgrades should be purchased if possible. It will e moderately expensive (or very expensive) on many of the ships, but it is WELL worth it. Remember that even if you ca only directly control 12 drones at a time, a Type-6 Dogfight drone (or anything else Warp-seeking) doesn't need to be guided if it's close. Thus, I like seeding my attack waves with the Starfish drones (forgot their designation) which, though weaker than a Type-4 itself in total, greatly multiply your threats.

Remember that any trick you have that can hide the actual shipkillers or protect them will be invaluable. Don't Shatterpack all Type-1, for example. Instead, two Type 4 and four Type 6 make the actual damaging ones much harder to find... and frees up a LOT of control space to launch more.

When the drones start approaching the enemy ship (as in, within 4 hexes or so), dumping some offensive EW into your opponent via Special Sensor can be a good idea. Crippling enemy defensive fire will mean that much more of your drone wave will get through. Remember that this can be done from 15 hexes away, so plan your moves accordingly. You're not tough enough to take the hits after the drones are done, so stay away unless you have a compelling reason to dive in closer.

Also know that Drone racks are always 360 firing arc unless otherwise stated, which means that the vast majority of your weapons have no problem going into the face of a pursuing enemy.

Now, there are two major weaknesses to Kzinti Drone Warfare. The first and biggest by far is against Lyrans, since the Expanding Shield Generator will clear out a wave of drones on its own. However, remember that these are quite power-hungry and can be knocked down by damage, so a second wave timed to strike 6-8 impulses after the first means that one of the two will likely get through.

The second major weakness comes in the form of the Phaser-G. At the point-blank ranges drones by definition operate at, the Gatling Phaser is at its most efficient. There is not much counter to this, except those already stated. False drones, offensive EW, etc.

By Terry Smith (Kzindog117) on Friday, December 04, 2009 - 12:51 pm: Edit

Nice run down

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, December 04, 2009 - 03:07 pm: Edit

One think to keep in mind about kzinti ships is that their MY designs cut their teeth fighting other Kzinti ships. They're optimized to fight and defend against the drone game.

What are drones good for:
1) Soaking up phasers
2) And therefore enemy power
3) Encouraging an enemy to maeuver where he wouldn't otherwise
4) and if you're lucky do a little damage now and then.

Kzintis get huge special drone percentages. Kzintis are well advised to get real familiar with how the Drone Construction rules (Advanced Missions) work.

Facing Lyrans, multi warhead drones will soak up huge amounts of ESG damage. Armored drones help here too. (MEMORIZE how ESGs assign damage! it is immportant!)

Facing klinks, maybe a few swordfish drones will sting him at range, complicating his defense.

Against hydran (or anybody's) fighters, there's nothing like a good starfish drone. MW drones are nice here too.

Kzinti aren't as maneuverable as klinks but until the general war brought out the D5 and its FH+R/L arcs, most kzinti had a wider firing arc with FA+L?R being very common. Before the general War the Kzinit had some of the best disruptor arcs around.

A favorite kzinti tactic is the "hack and slash" where the Kzinti gets right up in the face of his opponent, and on Impulse 32 hacks the opponent's facing shield down with all those little P-3s (plus the P-1s) and then pumps overloaded disruptors through the hole on Impulse #01 of the next turn. Sandy "Firemane" Hemenway used it to good effect when he won the yearly SFB tournement at origins one year.

By Will McCammon (Djdood) on Friday, December 04, 2009 - 08:08 pm: Edit

I concur with John.

The Kzintis disruptor mounts are few in number (and definitely secondary to their drone-throw capability), but they shouldn't be discounted. They are useful adjuncts, in both the medium/long (9-15) and close game (point-blank/overloads).

Where a Klingon's tactics are often driven by the disruptor's abilities (with drones being a useful secondary with the phasers), the Kzinti is the opposite. That "secondary battery" of weapons is often what causes the winning damage, after the "primary weapons" kick open the door.

The wins I've had with Kzintis were usually due to damage from disruptors, more than anything else (I did pull off the "hack and slash" once though. Seeing all those ph-3's peck away at his ship after the drone wave I followed in blew the shield down was great fun. He got his licks back at me, but I won the day).

Note, I'm writing this more from a Federation Commander perspective (having vastly more play-time in that system), but the principles are the same.

By Jonathan Jordan (Arcturusv) on Friday, December 04, 2009 - 08:39 pm: Edit

I will say if you play Kzintis in a fleet/squadron style game, that's where they really shine. I don't care much for duelling with them myself, and usually find myself coming up short (Possibly due to just inexperience in the One on One against my opponents admittedly). But when you get fleet games, especially those that are "Build a ____ BPV fleet" to go at it you really see the Kzintis cook. They have by far my favorite fleet based/combat small ships. Being able to chuck that many drones at that long of a range gives them a better chance of survival than small ships usually get and can make them a lot more dangerous than the frigates of other empires.

Enjoy the EW game. If you play with electronic warfare and scouts the Kzintis get some of the best deals in the game. Thanks to drones not blinding sensor channels all thier scouts are pretty much fully combat capable as well as able to give you the die roll modifiers.

They are a pain to play in the Fleet Arena only because at any given time a Kzinti player will have at least 3 times as many counters to move around as anyone else. And I know some players refuse to deal with such clutter either playing as, or playing against.

But it's how a Kzinti survives. The history pegs them as such, especially carriers and drone chucking fighters, and that's what you got to do. Stand off, use creative homing patterns on your drone whenever possible. Usually there's three hexes you can move your drones too after all. It's quite possible, and I've done it a few times, to see an enemy with drones from the same scatterpack approching them from behind and in front. It takes some practice and a good eye to set it up, but if you can keep looking for ways to bracket your enemy with drones, your job becomes a lot easier.

Don't forget you can send your Scatterpacks on ballistic targetting vectors and have them blossom up at odd angles to the enemy, really complicating thier manuevers.

By Jacob Karpel (Psybomb) on Friday, December 11, 2009 - 12:55 am: Edit

Having played a game now with the CBT (Y178), I must say that D-Racks are a mixed blessing for the Kzinti. On the plus side, you get a freaking fire selector on your main offensive armament. On the minus, buying upgrades for all those slots gets old quick. VERY quick.

I did pull a few exceedingly valuable lessons from the match (Other than "don't let fluff get in the way of fun", I was teamed with a Klingon Battle Tug). First is that, while specialty warheads are cool, they are mostly just there to play mind games with your opponents. Your main damage-dealers will always be the Type 1 and Type 4.

Another thing is a confirmation of something. Part of the key to victory is to know how your drones move, and play games with them all day long. Have them split up in their paths only to reconverge on one target, dance them around to find hidden mines before others get into range, mix up what types you're firing, and everything else in your power. Remember that the only real limits to what they can do are their maximum speed and that they must always get closer to their target (which means one of 2-3 different legit moves, usually)

The analogy I had was that we were all playing chess with only our Queen... but I had 3 pawns, two Rooks, and a Bishop running around as well. And they couldn't always tell which was which.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Friday, December 11, 2009 - 01:11 am: Edit

Note that when buying upgrades for D-racks, you only have to pay for one rack per launcher (FD3.44).

As for specialty drones, some stuff is fluff, some stuff is crucial. The type-4 with 1/2 armor space (also known as the 8/18, as in 8 points to destroy, 18 point warhead) and the type 4 with 1 armor space (a.k.a. the 10/12) are very important. With D-racks, that's mostly what I would use. If using EW rules, the ECM drone is the single most important thing in the rack. For certain battles, MW drones can be very handy. The rest can be an amusing switch-up, or can be important in special scenario cases, but generally aren't worth the Restricted and Limited slots they take.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, December 11, 2009 - 12:39 pm: Edit

Swordfish drones are useful when fighting plasma races (but only in fleet battles where you can mass them), as then you can actually do some damage to the torps before they hit. Pretty inefficient, but you can arrange for a massed ph-3 strike that might put enough of a hole in a plasma strike to allow you to push through the plasma and close the range to the enemy fleet.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, December 11, 2009 - 12:47 pm: Edit

I generally agree with Andy Vancil's assessment of drones (I like the 8/18 a lot) but would add that it does depend on the nature of your opponent's drone defenses. The 8/18 is a very useful version of the type-IV against "damaged-based" defenses such as phasers and ESGs. It is less useful if your opponent relies heavily "all-or-nothing" defenses such as his own drones or ADD racks to kill your drones

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, December 11, 2009 - 01:19 pm: Edit

Occasionally I'll select "12 to kill, 6 warhead" heavy drones (3 armor modules, 1 explosive) because they can survive a T-Bomb and sometimes confuse the enemy's defenses. I don't like these drones against Klingons or Feds, because ADDs render them much less useful. They are especially good against Lyrans, Gorns, and Roms.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Friday, December 11, 2009 - 05:30 pm: Edit

Starfish vs hydran stinger swarms

By Jacob Karpel (Psybomb) on Monday, December 14, 2009 - 10:28 am: Edit

Tried out one of the 12/6 drones when I noticed an enemy using a T-Bomb defense and to probe for the validity of visible ones. Firing one of them about three impulses before the main volley at the same speed works miracles at saving your clusters from explosions.

That said, I come to the "Timing is Everything" part of the lessons (meant for newer players. Experienced Kzinti probably need not read this ). General rule of thumb is to have as many drones get to within threat distance of the target at the same time as possible. This is called "Target Saturation", and makes it very difficult for an opponent to take them all down.

Timing waves of different-speed drones is a nasty trick for ships with double-control. Essentially, time a fast drone wave to get to the anticipated target point about the same time as a Medium-speed wave. Doubles the threats if you time it right, and forces the opponent to change their maneuvers awkwardly and expend weapons energy even if you don't.

On the flip side, if you know about specific kinds of defenses (like the mentioned T-Bombs), then scattering launches might not be a bad idea. if you decide to stagger launches, remember to do so enough to matter against the defense you think you'll be facing (next-impulse launch against an anticipater T-Bomb isn't very helpful), but close enough to still be a threat (an 8-impulse difference across a turn break makes the wave a negligible threat).

By Jacob Karpel (Psybomb) on Sunday, December 20, 2009 - 03:25 pm: Edit

Has anyone here tried this out? I'm thinking of attempting it in the next high-BPV duel I get into. Inspired by Honor Harrington books and the Macross anime.

It takes a little bit of setup to work. Specifically, that the Kzinti player be flying a carrier with as many TAAS/TADS fighters as possible (thus, you want this to be Y178 or later). The more shuttle bays and launch tubes the better, as well. Works best if you have at least one Special Sensor for offensive EW or even extra drone control, but the example at the bottom doesn't use any.

Equip one or (maybe) two of the Fighters with drone-control pods (J11.35), and use them as "drone tenders". Have EVERYTHING else time their drone launches to arrive within a few impulses of each other, and try to launch right at the beginning of a turn in order to over-saturate potential defenses at the end of the same turn. The idea here is literally to have more missiles in the air than the enemy has weapons to shoot them down with.

One or two ship-launched missiles would probably be best to precede the others in order to trip mines ahead of the pack (I know I'll be firing a 12/8 or two to do so)

Assuming you time your movement right so that the range is around 12-14 (longer potential if your opponent is dashing into your face or if yo have a bunch of fast drones) just after the Energy Allocation, this has the potential to generate a supersaturation of defensive weapons. Simply put, every single weapon your opponent has will be forced to fire full-bore into the onrushing tide of destruction, or else when they hit the victim will be reduced to dust... and not much of it. If he does, all of the lovely Disruptors and Phasers the fighters and carriers also carry will do many horrible things to him, not to mention the drones that will make it through.

Even mistimed, this has the ability to occupy enemy fire for a lot of a second turn while you launch a follow-up wave (which could potentially be just as heavy as the first one). That, and even more time for Disruptor and Phaser fire to do their dirty work.

For other fun times, you can have one major launch wave coming around Impulse 24-26 of one turn and a second massive wave immediately following it 8 impulses later, just after Energy Allocation.

I've personally worked out that, using a CVA and its default fighters in ideal circumstances, I could have upwards of 78 drones in space at once, and further BE ABLE TO CONTROL THEM ALL as long as a decent number of fighters survive (TAAS can control 4 each, DAS 2 each, and the tenders and carrier 12 each).

Now, am I completely off my rocker on this tactic's legality? Even if it's legal, how effective would it really be? Carriers that know what's coming 8 impulses ahead would be able to launch their own fighters for defensive fire, and anything carrying a charged ESG or several (read 4 or more) Phaser-Gs would probably be able to survive the initial assault. That, and you'd only be able to pull off two such waves in a given duel, due to fighter drone limits (though there would be a few more heavy waves, potentially more 78-drone waves if the range is close enough for Type-VI fire). However, I can't imagine any one (or even many two) standard ship(s) coming out of it uncrippled, or even in position to make any attempt at striking back at their opponents. Not even something like a B10 with full fighter compliment and same-proportion Commander's Options.

By Jonathan Jordan (Arcturusv) on Sunday, December 20, 2009 - 04:21 pm: Edit

Legal? Seems so. Will it work? Questionable. Though I do love my Macross.

If you end up on any sort of floating map you run into the typical problem. That no matter what you do, you'll never get that close. With speed 20 drones you'll only get a hit if your opponent makes a grievous error working on things like Mid Turn Speed Changes (Which has happened to the Lyran player in our group once). So without Fast drones, even on a fixed map it'll probably not work. Your stocks is all spent in one/two waves here. With only two huge waves (Presuming a relatively equal fleet), they shoudl be able to manuever around them and snipe down any of your drones launched outside the huge swarm that might pin them down. If you have Fast Drones your opponents will usually have faster ships that can run fast enough on a floating map to nullify the Big Wave, or at least buy them enough time that thier defenses can work to full effect.

A full Klingon Battlefleet, for example, usually has enough ADD racks to put some serious hurt in a wave, and thier drone racks will most likely be saved purely for sniping your drones adding to it. On that floating map if hte Drones were too much for thier defenses, it's almost guaranteed they've been running away to buy more time for thier ADD racks and won't be in effective range for you to really hack and slash with a CVA group.

My own experience has shown that unless your opponent is in some bloodthirster rage or just fully unaware of how many drones you can put out, the Large Swarm doesn't work. They'll see it coming, turn and run out drones, they can throw thier full defenses into it, T-bombs rolled out the hatch, ADDs, Drone Racks, phasers, becuse by running you wnt' be in range to really punish them. And generally speaking you wont' be able to throw out enough Large Waves like that to wear down thier defenses with long range disruptor bolts and phaser shots before you run out of launch capacity and they turn in to gut you.

I personally have more success doing it just a few at a time. As long as they know the HUGE WAVE is still on the option's table they avoid closing with you. It's all about finding that threshold which forces them to go defensive while you still have the majority of your drones available. In a fleet engagement drones in the rack are more worthwhile than drones on the board. Especially if you're facing Klingons and you can show them that your Phaser-1 batteries and Disruptor bolts can make an as effective, if not more so sniping set than what they can fire behind them.

Course if here is some scenario rule that forces them to be agressive, the whole equation changes.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Sunday, December 20, 2009 - 04:24 pm: Edit

Uhhh...a wild weasel? It gets rid of them all. Looks like a good trade for one shuttle.

By Jacob Karpel (Psybomb) on Sunday, December 20, 2009 - 04:37 pm: Edit

Thanks. I think I'll still try it once, just to see how much clearance they give my carriers in future games (*evil grin*). I think it'll actually be quite effective if I can bait my enemy into facing directly toward me at mid-close range, as most ships in those points ranges can't HET safely. I don't know many players who are willing to take a 33% chance of just instantly losing due to a Breakdown.

More than that, even after the two Macross Missile Massacre waves, there are still a good number of drones left for standard launch rates. The CVA, for example, still has 2 C-racks and 4 B-racks plus its 4 disruptors.

I agree, though, that it either takes Fast drones or Mediums at short range for this to actually have a hope of completely wiping out a competent opponent.

EDIT: dangit, knew I was forgetting something. Mostly stopped by the Weasel. Remember your other weapons, though, as they're not all THAT hard to kill and doing so fast enough would let that missile wave re-lock onto the actual ship... which wold no longer have Active Fire Control to defend itself with.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Sunday, December 20, 2009 - 11:48 pm: Edit

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Quote:

Uhhh...a wild weasel? It gets rid of them all. Looks like a good trade for one shuttle

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By Terence Sean Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Monday, December 21, 2009 - 12:23 am: Edit

That trick's very limited though, isn't it? Firstly you have to arrange for drones and the DF drone to enter the target's hex on the same impulse, and secondly, DF drones have a range of only 12 hexes or something.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, December 21, 2009 - 12:55 am: Edit

Other empires that can cause problems for this massive drone tactic:

Tholian fleet with web casters If you're fighting web caster-equipped Tholians, it's a bad idea to choose a fleet that relies too heavily on seeking weapons.

Romulan fleet Well timed cloaking can cause large numbers of drones to lose lock-on. You can try Xander's "... ol' "target all the drones on the dogfight drone" trick." But as Terence pointed out, there are enough limitations to that trick that it is hard to bring off against a good opponent.

By Terence Sean Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Monday, December 21, 2009 - 03:50 am: Edit

Going back to the original post, it says most Kzinti ships have 6 drone racks. In fact, most Zin ships have four, and can't control more than six drones. There's plenty of drone variants with better than four, but the most numerically common Zin ships have four racks. In refits, the racks do get better though.

And drones are not a primary weapon for the zin, the disruptors are. They use the drones to force the opponent's movement and make him waste power, for the most part. It makes up for their own average turn modes and less generated power. Drones don't hit that often.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Monday, December 21, 2009 - 04:58 pm: Edit

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Quote:

EDIT: dangit, knew I was forgetting something. Mostly stopped by the Weasel. Remember your other weapons, though, as they're not all THAT hard to kill and doing so fast enough would let that missile wave re-lock onto the actual ship... which wold no longer have Active Fire Control to defend itself with.

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By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Monday, December 21, 2009 - 05:02 pm: Edit

And going back to the original post, there's something else that doesn't seem to have been mentioned. Unlaunched drones force the opponent to hold firepower back. If you're in a knife-fight with 4 drone racks ready to go, your opponent can't afford to fire all his phasers at you, just in case you chuck 4 type-4 drones into his defenceless face the next impulse.

By Jonathan Jordan (Arcturusv) on Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 08:07 pm: Edit

Course, the other thing to consider is, if you're playing a fleet battle on a floating map is that yes, the enemy will run from the massive drone swarm. If you can find the threshold where they will run to buy time and outmanuever the wave then you can play the Snipe Game. Yes, you will have your Disruptors ready to go against thier rear shields, which is nice. But don't forget that the Kzinti Fleet, against it's historical foes, has a nice Phaser-1 Advantage, and it's cheaper on the power. You can maintain a higher speed to keep up pressure and enough massed phaser-1s can breakd own any possible reinforcement on smaller ships (Who likely won't have the energy while at high enough speeds to outrun drones in later years to go ECMing) and score some free damage. It's a good way to pick off smaller escorts or frigates lagging behind to cover the larger, more valuable ships. Of course if you have the energy while chasing (And Kzinti ships usually can), you can save your disruptor sniping for the heavier craft.

Free Damage is free damage. If you can find a threshold where half your fleet is emptying racks and forcing them to run you keep the other half ready to launch incase they go aggressive or weasel perhaps and you draw close. If they keep running your superior phaser suite will make them pay.

And if it only takes half your fleet launching then there won't be a Reload Turn with you being toothless as well.

Just something to consider.

By chris upson (Misanthropope) on Thursday, December 24, 2009 - 04:01 pm: Edit

the zin are monsters in close combat. when things get messy in a knife fight is when people start getting killed by drones. a turn that begins with a potential overrun developing (at range 9-15, ideally) is a good situation for the zin against almost any opponent.

to me, knowing when to arm disruptors and when to arm the tractor beams, is the most important thing in driving the kitties. if your opponent wants to just opt out of the knife fight, you gain the two classic pursuit advantages: 1) your opponent has to spend appreciably more power than you on movement, and 2) you will have an easier time keeping intact shields interposed, than he will.

if your opponent wants to do "D5s at range 30 all day", im not sure there is much you can do, but on the other hand, win or lose, that game isn't quite as much fun as getting a root canal during an IRS audit.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, December 24, 2009 - 04:56 pm: Edit

They don't call them Tiger-Men for nuttin'.

The long range disruptor snipe is why the Kzinti have the Scout Frigate, and later the Drone Scout Frigate.


Seiously, my former regualr opponant was a crafty dangerous Romulan, but also a stalking deadly Kzinti and he also never went without a scout frigate. Indeed, we played a destroyer game, but he took the SDF. During General War years the SDF is the prime choice with a squadron or fleet since an SF is going to cost you 90 BPV anyway. With other ships, the drones are vurtually a freebe (same for drone speed upgrades).

Kzinti ships require considerable study. Many Kzinti ships have no-so-obvious advantages. Sometimes it takes careful study of the SSD with a DAC in hand.