Hi.


At the moment, the largest that any known Jindarian metal-hull ships get are the two strike cruiser types - which have been shown as getting advanced technology upgrades in Module X1R.


My thought was to have a similar duo of larger metal hulls - one as a Light Dreadnought (which in game terms would be closer to the Seltorian DNL than the fast ship DNLs seen in other empires) and another as a Heavy Dreadnought (not necessarily as big as a true DNH seen in other empires, but notably bigger than the LDN even so).


These ships would, in most places, be relatively rare,or maybe even conjectural in Alpha or the Cloud. However, in the Jindarian Freehold over in Omega, perhaps ships like these might be the centrepiece of metal-hull forces used for Freehold security - as a means of avoiding having to risk the asteroid ships in combat against an intruding force (such as the Andromedans and Souldra).


If for nothing else, these ships could help make a metal-hull Jindarian fleet somewhat more interesting to fly in a player campaign.

By Terence Sean Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Sunday, January 31, 2010 - 08:23 pm: Edit

I know I tend to pour cold water on everything, but here's my two cents:

Firstly, Jindos tend not to maintain a standing fleet of metal hulled ships (or so I understand from what I have read). They build them as needed to counter large threats. So I am not certain that anything as large as a dreadnought of any sort is something that they would build. On top of that, it's possible that something that big is more than they could build.

Secondly, a DNL is a fast ship, a raiding dreadnought. I don't see the Jindos conducting raids, or at least not often enough to require building DNLs or other fast raiders. A DNH is an upgunned variant of a DN which packs the most firepower possible onto the hull. I think you may actually mean heavy battlecruiser (BCH) and standard DN instead of DNL and DNH.

In any case, by the time X-tech becomes available, X-cruisers have the command capabilities and firepower of dreadnoughts anyway, making these ships redundant.

I'm not sufficiently familiar with the Jindarian Freehold to know what they might do in response to Andro or Souldra invasions, but I suspect that they would hide as much as possible and conduct guerrilla operations against attackers coming into their asteroid fields. I'm pretty sure they would not conduct stand-up fleet vs fleet battles if they could avoid it.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, January 31, 2010 - 08:39 pm: Edit

Terry:


As noted above, the LDN would be intended to be akin to the Seltorian ship Storm of the Firestones, in terms of size and performance.

(The Selt DNL can't go seven hexes a turn in F&E terms, but is still more powerful than a CA for the Tribunal's purposes.)

I wanted to avoid the BC term, to try and avoid confusion with the pre-existing asteroid hull, as well as to echo the naming of the Light and Heavy Strike Cruisers. (Indeed, one could argue the Selt DNL has its classification in order to avoid confusion with the M81 BCH.)


Two noted examples of the Freehold being attacked are an invasion by the Andromedans in Y199, and an assault by the Alunda in Y209. While the details of the Jindarian response to the Andro assault is not detailed, the Alunda are noted as being driven back by the 'sheer size of the Jindarian response'.

The Freehold seems to be the only hex on the map, in any known region of space the Jindarians have been shown to operate, that the Jindos will stand and fight for in numbers.


Plus, while it is noted that some form of X-technology does spread across Omega in the Y200s and onwards, it's not guaranteed that the Freehold Jindarians would developed their X-ships the same way that those in Alpha (or the Cloud - who at least had the chance to find out about the Alpha-Jindarians after Operation Unity) did.

But even so, prior to the time X-tech became widespread across Omega, the Jindarians would have been at risk of attack from their neighbours, the Souldra, and that Andro invasion in Y199.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Monday, February 01, 2010 - 05:34 am: Edit

I'd be interested in seeing the ships Gary is proposing here, even if they were conjectural or extremely rare, simply because they would offer a different dynamic than asteroid hulled DNs and BCs. The asteroid ships are at the core of the Jindo's "flavor" as a race, and I would be against seeing that change, but larger forms of the conventional ships would be an interesting alternative.

Maybe rather than the traditional DNL and DNH designations, barrow the "Strike" designation for something like "Strike Dreadnought" and "Strike Battlecruiser". Humm...don't like the sound of that second one (the BCH-equivalent) so much... how about "Super Strike Cruiser"? The basic idea anyway is to use the "Strike" designation for all large, metal-hulled Jindos.

Conceptually, I like it, regardless of name. The second question is...can a metal hulled ship handle anything bigger than a medium rail gun? Keeping the heavy railguns confined to the Asteroid ships would help preserve their value, and would make these guys truely different.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Monday, February 01, 2010 - 12:49 pm: Edit

I would deffinatly keep the heavy rail guns as "base" type weapons ala the ph-4.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Tuesday, February 02, 2010 - 04:17 am: Edit

So what would the armament on these guys look like? Both the HCS and LCS have four MRGs on the corners and 4xPh-1-360. The LCS has two additional Ph-1s forward, while the HCS has three forward and two aft.

I'd think the target armament for the DN equivalent would be 8 MRGs. Heavy, but there is no clean way to stick to the "four corners" arrangement of the other metal hulled ships with 6 weapons and not have a forward bias to the weapons. Given that high number of MRGs, I would not expect the DN to have a staggering number of Ph-1s. If the pattern of 4xPh-1-360 holds, then maybe a total of 6 additional phaser-1s split up around the hull.

The BCH-equivalent is tougher. At 180 BPV, the HCS is pretty much a BCH-equivalent already (the rock-hulled one BCH is 200 BPV). I guess you could go with a ship with 8 MRGs and a smaller number of Ph-1s than the HCS. Not sure how workable that is. 8 MRGs and 6 Ph-1s seems lopsided, but 4 MRGs and something like 10 Ph-1s. doesn't seem to be subtantially different that the HCS (probably 3 more Ph-1s on a slightly larger hull).

Just throwing out ideas here. Any thoughts?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, February 02, 2010 - 12:59 pm: Edit

I agree with the idea of sticking with small and/or medium railguns.


What if, instead of giving both ships the same railgun armament, the heavy unit gets 8 MRGs (2 per corner) with the light unit getting 4 MRGs and 4 LRGs (one of each per corner)?

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Tuesday, February 02, 2010 - 01:44 pm: Edit

That's an interesting thought. I don't know for sure how a ship with an overlapping mix of LRGs and MRGs would actually fly, but its worth considering. It would at least solve the problem of a two ships with identical, heavy loads of MRGs.

By Kevin Humar-Barrett (Cheethorne) on Tuesday, February 02, 2010 - 02:06 pm: Edit

Another idea would be for these two ships to partially break the 360 bias of previous Jindarian ships.

Instead of forcing 8 MRGs around a BCH or DNL -type ship, place 6 MRGs, with four in the front (two each corner) and two in the back (one in each corner) with a large central Ph-1 bank and the rest of the phasers split between the front and the bank 60-40.

For the larger DN-type metal ship, you could go back to 8 MRGs with 2 on each corner and even more Phaser-1's, but with this ship, I would think you have to find something unique for it to be armed with, like a small number of LRGs normally used for defensive purposes.

Also, I would completely steer away from having this tied to the Jindarian Freehold in the Omega Sector. It is unnecessary and other places that have referred to this group have said they developed in a different direction than stand-alone caravans. These ships can easily be conceived as the whims of a caravan leader that wanted to take control of some rich asteroid field from an entrenched power. Since the battle to take the field would be long and dangerous (but the rewards were worth it), he envisioned these ships as doing the heavy fighting without risking the more economically valuable asteroid ships.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, February 03, 2010 - 04:19 pm: Edit

Personally, I like the idea of sticking with as symmetrical a loadout as you can, when it comes to what the railgun options would look like.

But, of course, mileages may vary - and perhaps there was a (conjectural?) assault variant, which has a more forward-weighted arc. (Might be useful if there's an Andro RTN node, Souldra Dark Matter Cache or Zosman Marauder holding plonked too close to the Freehold for comfort.)

Which brings me to the issue of the Freehold itself. It's no secret that I'm a massive Omega nut, and that I'd consider the Freehold to be the one place where ships like these might have a more viable purpose.

Rather than a wholly conjectural pair of units that can go nowhere, I'd rather there be at least some chance for them to serve, and fight if need be, in this corner of the galaxy.


But then, kilometre-ages may vary, of course.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, February 04, 2010 - 10:49 am: Edit

Oh, one other thought:


Over in the Vari Combine, the locals' heaviest published ship is called a Battlewagon - which, despite having the same title as a converted Seltorian Nest Ship, is... somewhat smaller in comparison.

(The Vari had limits in terms of how large their cells' fleet yards tended to be, so the BW - and the SCS based on the same hull - are closer to your average BCH in size.)


So, maybe the two ships here could be the LBW and HBW - the Light and Heavy Battlewagons?

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Sunday, February 07, 2010 - 05:27 am: Edit

Gary, had some time this AM and ginned up this SSD. What do you think?

Jindarian Strike Dreadnought (SDN)

Pretty straightforward. 8 MRGs, 10 Ph-1, beefed up everything else from the HCS.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Sunday, February 07, 2010 - 08:49 am: Edit

OK, couldn't resist...here's the other one...

Jindarian Super Strike Cruiser (SSC)

A weird hybrid between the what most races would call a DNL and a BCH. The HSC is already a rough equal to the other fleet's BCH, and I didn't think the Jindos would use a real "fast" light dreadnought. So, this is what I came up with. It is size class 2, move cost 1.25, but doesn't have the 45 warp of a fast DN. Its armament is cruiser-like, giving up 2 Ph-1s as compared to the HCS, but adds 4 light railguns at the corners. Beyond range 10, this ship will no be more powerful than a HCS, but in closer, it will fight much differently with the mixed MRG/LRG armament. It has more power, but some of that will be eaten up by the more numerous rail guns.

This design is a lot less obvious than the SDN, and I'm not sure really sure how effective it would be. LRGs don't really represent much of a threat outside of point blank range. The SDN could give an enemy pause out at range 15 while this is no more spooky than an HCS at that range. The big difference is in durability and power.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, February 07, 2010 - 02:01 pm: Edit

They both look good!


In terms of size, perhaps a good comparison for the smaller ship might be the Loriyill Dreadnought - which also has a MC of 1.25, and is not a fast DN either.

I like the idea that it's a step up at short range compared to the HCS, but not at long range the way the larger ship would be. It gives each ship that bit more character, in terms of how they fight at least.


Also, I take it the light and heavy battlewagon name ideas don't work for you, then?

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Sunday, February 07, 2010 - 02:09 pm: Edit

"Battlewagon" just never had much of a ring for me. I hear "battlewagon" and I think "bucket of bolts"...don't ask me why. Never liked hearing real Battleships refered to as that.

I like using the "strike" term, as it is somewhat ambigious in broad SFB terms, and it establishes some commonality with the HCS and LCS. But them, names are not nearly as important as what in the ship design.

Glad you like the ships. I could see a lot of ways to vary these hulls, and I don't presume to say that these are the way they must be, just my own take on something close.

By Jonathan Jordan (Arcturusv) on Sunday, February 07, 2010 - 02:32 pm: Edit

Yes, I'm with you there Jeremy. I still have that little cringe when I'm watching documentaries and hear things like "Battlewagon Ise".

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 04:15 pm: Edit

Any more thoughts on these guys?