Counter Web Caster tactics for Kzinti:
Buy several extended range drones. When the Tholians catch them with cast web they are actually helping you set up a heavy drone wave.

Even put some armor on them if you can.

Then there is the fast perpendicular launch that spreads the wave out over six hexes wide. Casting web to catch all these drones is very difficult, and results in a much weaker web. Since you will likely have fast drones, this is a serious issue for the Tholians. It is very likey that four of six drones (spread out in pairs over six hexes) will be able to avoid the cast web unless the web is fairly close to the launching ship. However, I have seen drones launched into the cast web on purpose so as to hold them up for the next launch the next turn. Now the Tholian is facing twice the drones.

Cast Web is not the most effective drone defense. It is best for blocking direct fire weapons and forcing opponants to turn. It is really good for creating temporary cover so another ship can make a turn where a down shield would be exposed for a bit.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, December 26, 2009 - 06:08 pm: Edit

Loren,

Well, I have to disagree. I've generally found web casters to be very useful against drone users. There are a lot of different ways that web casters can be used against drones, and not all of them are useful in every tactical situation. But there's almost always something that the web caster can do to interfere. Among other things, a properly timed web can "compress" a drone string so that one T-bomb can kill large numbers. It can delay the drones long enough that they will never catch the Tholians. It provides a method whereby the Tholians can effectively turn a wild PFS (or wild SWAC if the Tholians are allied with the Federation) on or off. It can provide cover for the Tholians to drop a facing shield to place T-bombs. Web casters are not so much of a nightmare for the Kzinti as they are for the big plasma empires. But they are still a major headache.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, December 26, 2009 - 06:54 pm: Edit

I tried that "bunch the string of drones" thing witht he web caster, and it worked exactly as you say... I had figured I would just cast the web, mozey up to transporter range and plant a T-bomb to take out all twelve drones. He foiled that plan by climbing into the web with the drones.

Had I had two web casters then I could have made that happen and he couldn't have countered.

That is, cast one string of web, then another with one hex between and plant your bomb in the second. You have to be careful to turn back very sharpley, otherwise you might allow the drones to avoid the bomb (unless you placed several, but T-Bombs aren't cheap and I don't like to plant two to ensure one blows unless I know I'll get internal hits.

Another thing is that my opponant would shift the use of drones to the other main drone tactic, maneuver manipulation. A drone wave is good for drawing out a web caster. As the drone user, he was preparred to shift the battle to a direct fight by going around at high speed. Definately two web casters are better than one; a full twice as useful, because you can then block a lot of this tactic as well. Three is probably not three times as useful, and after that you hit tough deployment restrictions and the more enemy ships you face the more they can counter your web casting techniques.

The reason web casters are best in pairs, IMO, is that web does two very important things; it catches things and it blocks fire, but it cannot do both to the same unit at the same time (you can fire out of a web hex). Two web casters can pin and block; phasers do the chopping.

By Jonathan Jordan (Arcturusv) on Saturday, December 26, 2009 - 07:22 pm: Edit

Meanwhile all those drones in the web are taking up control channels that you could otherwise be using. Most players seem to forget that it's only a relative minority of Kzinti ships that have double drone control, and that ATG only kicks in at short range. And that ballistically launched drones can't hit anything smaller than a planet. Course if you play Kzintis a lot you probably already know this. I'm sure every Kzinti player has had those moments where thier lack of understanding about drone rules comes to bite them hard.

Which reminds me for pick up games (And campaign planning), one of the most useful things you can do as a Kzinti player is take some time to hunt through your rule books. Track down all the Drone Mods, thier Restriction levels and Year in Service, and in some cases, mods that change availability during the years. Make yourself a cheat sheet to quick reference as needed.


I actually wish such a chart was published somewhere as I tend to lose that reference quite often. Especially when I'm in group situations and suddenly everyone is grabbing at it because it's just that convienent.

By Jacob Karpel (Psybomb) on Monday, December 28, 2009 - 11:55 am: Edit

I think there is one in the Master Rules compendium. At least, I think that's where it's from, as the main person in my playgroup has it (and I used it to plan out the CBT payloads).

By Jacob Karpel (Psybomb) on Sunday, January 10, 2010 - 07:00 pm: Edit

Next topic for my personal train of thought is the Multi-Warhead drone. Though expensive and coming up a bit short in raw firepower, these can be spectacular assets to the Kzinti. Notably, they are probably the most versatile weapon in any armament. Here's why:

1) Their designed purpose is to take out fighters. this goes double if said fighters have already shot their phasers at other targets. One of the submunition drones will cripple any regular fighter and completely destroy some. Forcing Chaff use means your own fighters have that much better chance.

2) They also do well against drone waves, with one multi-warhead drone capable of taking out 5 incoming enemy drones on its own by targeting its type-6s on them. This leaves your other weapons free to engage other targets.

3) Anti-WW. An enemy who expects the drone to be diverted and drops his fire control and speed to launch a Weasel will eat 10 completely unavoidable points to whatever shield is facing.

4) Defense saturation. There really isn't anything quite like the look on an enemy's face when a stack of 6 drones that were ADD bait turns into 30 threat sources. Each may only be doing 2 points to the enemy, but it's still 60 potential damage. It obligates a response, which will run enemies dry on phaser banks and ADD launcher ammo. Just remember that you have to control each drone briefly when it scatters to tell it where to go, before its warp-seekers lock on. Cascade releases one per impulse unless you have a LOT of spare sensor or allies that can help out.

Just my thoughts.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Sunday, January 10, 2010 - 09:37 pm: Edit

Jacob,

It's not true that "One of the submunition drones will cripple any regular fighter and completely destroy some." At least, it's not true if by "regular fighter" you mean a single-space fighter rather than a two-space heavy fighter. Off the top of my head - regular fighters that are not crippled by a hit from a Type-VI drone:

Federation A-10
Gorn G-10
Tholian Spider-II (and Spider-IIP) and Spider-III
Vudar Electron, Proton, and Tachyon

And that list assumes "regular fighter" excludes megafighters. There are lot of single-space fighters with 12 damage. If you consider their megafighter versions to still be "regular fighters", you greatly expand the above list.

By Kerry E Mullan (Nomad17) on Monday, January 11, 2010 - 09:09 am: Edit

Alan,

So by your statement about 4% of the current ftr list will not be crippled. To me that denotes the definition of "Regular".

Obviously heavy ftrs or mega ftrs are not regular as in each description there are direct statements to the contrary.

The only downsides to the tactic are availability, cost, and ability to hit issues.

By this I mean as a limited drone even Kzinti have only a 20% availabilty of drones to use them. If using type 4 drones thats 2 spaces of restricted so even the DN only can have 3 of those(and this kills the use of any other restricted drone).

Cost as well is a factor as for each spd 20 MW it's like 2.75 for a type 1 and 4.25 for a type 4(all with spd 20 submunitions). For spd 32s on both the cost goes to 4 and 6. having 3 or more of these can readily eat up CLs or if buying them outright can cost more than an INT or PF.

Ability to hit issues come about as all drones have this issue. There are many defenses available most notably turning off the bus vehicle with sensors, speed to outlast the 12 space T6 endurability, the launching persons ability to target correctly(ie you target it at a SC 2 and one of his SC 3 ships comes in close and just phasres the bus dead), tractors(a tractor can justwait for endurance to run out), tbombs as the t6 seem to bunch a lot, and finally terrain may have an effect depending on terrain.

By Jacob Karpel (Psybomb) on Monday, January 11, 2010 - 10:23 am: Edit

Yes, the cost and availability get very nasty very fast. I prefer to use them on a D-rack, since you only have to pay for one of the "clips" per rack you can get 2 spaces of MW for the price of one. Notably, my favorite ship in existence is the Kzinti CBT (at least until you give me a fully equipped SSDS, but I can't find anyone willing to play the Andromedan base :D). Thus, I do a LOT of testing with said D-racks. It would be worse on a B

As well, when you set a target the enemy can't know what you did unless they get an ID on it via Lab work, and you shouldn't be waiting quite that long for the dispersal. They can scatter the submunitions at any point after launch, so I usually do so at range 4 (conveniently just outside of ADD range, so the bus won't get instant-killed)

Ability to hit comes with practice. I usually don't fire at a swiftly-fleeing enemy (swiftly as defined by "within 3-5 of the drone"), as it's usually a good way to waste drones. One coming at you, though, is forced to use active defenses or HET, which is just as good.

I don't get to take them often, but after recent experiments if I can, I will. Thanks for the comments.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Monday, January 11, 2010 - 07:21 pm: Edit

There's a problem with your point 3 (anti-WW). If the opponent weasels the bus, the submunitions will accept that weasel as their target. You can get around that with random targeting, but then still half of them will go the wrong way.

The other real problem with MW drones (especially speed 12 or 20) is the limited range. You may make the opponent turn off, but getting hits is another matter.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, January 11, 2010 - 07:36 pm: Edit

Jim Davies:

As has been noted elsewhere, i.e., I am not saying something new, actually hitting a target is more a luxury than an expected result. The principle use of drones, even by the Kzintis, is to tie up the enemy's weapons, and influence his ability to maneuver, i.e., limit his options. While a drone impact can be a good thing, if the situation was that he found it acceptable to run over your drone (taking the damage) in order to destroy your ship, you lost and that drone hit is pretty meaningless.

You cannot go into a battle with the idea that the four drones loaded in your type-A drone rack are going to score 48 points of damage on your opponent. You might score a hit, but the important thing is to use their damage potential to set your ship up to do decisive damage to his.

There is one Klingon captain around here (I forget his name) who has been known to use disruptors as part of his drone defenses. He has gotten away with that on several occasions, but remember that if you can get inside his decision cycle, he might have empty disruptors while you overrun him with your overloaded disrutpors.

The upshot is to never fixate on hitting the target with drones. Doing so can be a good thing, and a beautiful sight to behold, but more than one Kzinti captain has invested so much effort in scoring a drone hit that he has lost his own ship in the process.

By Jonathan Jordan (Arcturusv) on Monday, January 11, 2010 - 08:06 pm: Edit

Yeah, only time I ever really count on getting Drone Hits was when I was playing in my group's mini-campaign against the juggernauts. If the terrain didn't chew up my drones I could usually get a hit or two every salvo. And you really need both those hits and tying up the phaser suite to have a hope of survival, much less victory.

But mostly drones were a "Quick, dump some angry decoys in thier way!" weapon.

I still admit since that campaign was my first campaign, and my first Serious dip into SFB I still play that way most of the time.

Exception being when I was using my CVA fighter group. Then I actually counted on getting some drone hits and did go on the offensive expecting to see some nuclear holocaust leveled upon my foes.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 10:59 pm: Edit

Scenario: The Juggernaught from CL 1.

Juggernaught VS Kzinti DN.

Three variations: DN with slow/moderate drones (Y165),medium drones (Y175), fast drones (Y185).

Discuss tactics for Kzinti captain in each situation.

By Jonathan Jordan (Arcturusv) on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 11:17 pm: Edit

Slow drones... Run like hell.

Seriously, Juggernaut is fast enough the drones are just a minor inconvience and if you have to slug it out direct firepower wise you're going to come up short. And in order to do enough damage to hurt it, you'll have to be in short range, in which case it's Explosion is going to take you out.

Even with Medium Drones I'd still say "Run like hell". You need multiple ships, or at least Fast Drones. A juggernaut shouldn't have any problem evading Speed 20 drones unless you can get them from multiple angles of approach and really box it in, which requires a bad player to ignore the ballistically launched SPs or multipe ships. You'd do better in my estimation taking a fleet of Kzinti FFs than a single DN for the point value.

With Fast Drones, it becomes much too easy however. Make him chase you uphill against your drones and scatterpacks, hook around and take it out.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, January 25, 2010 - 11:43 am: Edit

Fixed map or floating? You'd have to go for the suicide tractor grab IF you have to win as the Kzinti with slow drones.

Even the jindo is vulnerable to a point blank launch of all type IV with a couple three scatter packs out. This assumes he doesn't just use his speed and disdev to avoid you.

By Jonathan Jordan (Arcturusv) on Monday, January 25, 2010 - 03:21 pm: Edit

You mean Andro, right?

By Sidney G. Kanouse (Konus67c7) on Monday, January 25, 2010 - 04:12 pm: Edit

I also believe that multiple ships may be your best bet. Just look at some of the frigate and war destroyer variants, there are a couple that are pretty evil. I usually don't get involved in the "kitten" zone, but being a Klingon obligates me to give grudging respect to a worthy enemy. Multiple ships gives you more flexibility. Find out what the BPV of this Juggernaught is, and draw up some formations to attack and kill it. Throw everything and the kitchen sink at it; or should I say the litterbox.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Tuesday, February 02, 2010 - 08:27 pm: Edit

I suppose I'm deranged...I think the Kzin DN w/speed-20 drones (and the Y175 refits) could take Juggy, with some careful planning, of course.

By Jonathan Jordan (Arcturusv) on Tuesday, February 02, 2010 - 08:58 pm: Edit

I dunno, my experience against the Juggernaut player in our group is that the Juggernauts never went below about 26 speed.

In fact the only time I got hits with speed 20 drones was one, playing against the rookie in our group that forgot my Kzinti Drone Frigate had that many racks, and a second time against the Lyran player who tried to be too cute with his mid turn speed changes and was going to get plastered by two stray drones (But he saw it coming just in time to Zero Hex ESG one to death. The other was a Ph-3 swordfish that made him howl in annoyance)

By Douglas Jordan (Djordan) on Wednesday, February 24, 2010 - 02:00 pm: Edit

To all,

Looking for some suggestions. I have a Coalition force of a Romulan SupA(4xGII&4xGSF), WER, and Klingon F5D attacking a Hydran BATS(12xStinger IIs)with an undetermined ship in support(probably a Dragoon). The year is 175, I believe everyone has all refits and drones are speed 20. Rules are basic, no EW, SPs, mines, Commander's Opt, etc. This is intended to be the opening battle of the 'Economy of Force' campaign found in Basic Set.

By Douglas Jordan (Djordan) on Wednesday, February 24, 2010 - 02:15 pm: Edit

Oops, guess I put this in the wrong section, sorry.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, February 24, 2010 - 02:38 pm: Edit

You don't have enough force to lay seige with surity of victory. The F5D is all but useless except as a target. Inside 15 to the base, the base's channels have little to do besides break locks and ECM drones have no value without EW.

what you want to do is sit at range-20, cloak on reload turns and drop plasma-S's on him, but the amount of P-Gs in the Hydran force may not make it practcal. You may have to (gag) swat fighters with S-torps. and/or massed P-1 fire.

Does the base have mines?

The base's P-4 + hellbore combination is going to be nasty. You can't afford to let the base notch a shield for hellbore exploitation and you may not be able to avoid it. it will be tempting to envelop your plasmas, but only do so if you think you can keep a decent shield brick, which I persnally doubt.

Save your F5D and fighters for when/if the enemy ship and fighters come out to play. like the F5D, your fighters are just targets at range-20. You kinda want him to come out to play because that means he doesn't think he can win by simply aitting at the base and swatting what you throw at him.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, February 24, 2010 - 03:16 pm: Edit

Incidentally, why is a Rom vs Hydran base assault in the Kzinti Tactics topic?

By Douglas Jordan (Djordan) on Wednesday, February 24, 2010 - 03:43 pm: Edit

Yeah, thought I was putting this in the Klingon topic but missed. I thought if I could dip to range 10, bolt the 3 heavy torpedoes to crack a shield and then try to mizia the gatlings and ph-4's at longer range, I could make the base more suseptible to drone bombardment. Thx.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, February 24, 2010 - 04:15 pm: Edit

Not sure that will work out too well. You're gambling your siege on a 1-in-8 chance.

Plasma bolts hit on a 1-3 at range-10. You'd need to do internals on that first bolt attempt because at range 10 his P-4s, fighter fusions and hellbores, are going to mess up one of your ships (probably the WE) pretty bad. Which means you're going to need all three bolts to hit to make your tactic work, which is a 1 in 8 chance.

To be honest, by the time this base is vulnerable to drones from one F5D, the fight will be over.