Tholian tactical discussion topic...

I'm flying Tholians in Dale McKee's Campaign and I'm not far (I think, the GM has the keys) from getting some Neo-Tholians. Campaign specifics aside, I've been eyeballing the Neos and wanted to get some opinions on something...

Which is the better Neo cruiser, the NCA or the NCL?

The obvious thing is the NCA gets the second web caster, but that aside there appears to be some devils in the details.

The NCL has the same power and heavy weapons as a CAW, and a substantially bigger phaser capacitor, on a 2/3rds move cost. It has thinner shields, but otherwise it appears to slightly outclass the CAW. Almost a CW with a webcaster.

The NCA on the other hand has only 37 power on a 1.0 move cost - low compared to many "modern", alpha-quadrant NCAs. The phaser capacitor and disruptors are the same as the NCL, but second WC creates an increased power demand. It seems the NCA will have a harder time balancing WC usage, EW, and heavy weapons fire while maintaining battle speeds. But, it is a slightly bigger, tougher ship.

What do you all think? Pound for pound, is the NCL better than the NCA? Or does the second WC on the NCA trump all that?

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Friday, April 10, 2009 - 09:19 pm: Edit

The second web caster trumps all. Take the NCA and make it the core of a battle group made up of A-T's.

You won't regret it.

BTW, web casters ARE your heavy weapons. The disruptors are there for when you decide you have nothing to cast web at that turn...

By Richard Sherman (Rich) on Friday, April 10, 2009 - 09:29 pm: Edit

Jeremy,

What Mike said. Also consider that you might be able to get the collars for both classes, and in the case of the NCA, makes for a substantially improved ship.

But...I have to ask...do you really have to choose between the two? Won't you have both available?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, April 10, 2009 - 09:53 pm: Edit

I might disagree slightly with Mike Strain and Richard Sherman. It depends on your campaign rules. If (hypothetically) your rules put severe limits on the total number of webcasters available, so that the webcaster limit, rather than BPV, is the limiting factor for deployment, then 2 NCLs is probably better than 1 NCA. Among other things, 2 NCLs allows you to put both web casters in the same battle force, or divide them between two different battle forces, as the strategic situation dictates. But if the limit is on web caster-equipped ships rather than on web casters, Mike and Richard are completely correct. Go with the NCA.

If the "heavy" versions of those ships, the NCM and NCH, are allowed, pay the extra points to upgrade. The extra phasers are useful but what you really want is the extra power.

Also, consider Archeo-Tholians with web caster refit, if they are available in the campaign. The CCW is outstanding,

Finally, if X-ships are allowed in the campaign, upgrade every (non-dreadnought) web caster ship you have.

By Tom Carroll (Sandman) on Friday, April 10, 2009 - 10:56 pm: Edit

I wouldn't bother with the Neo Tholians smaller then the dreadnaught if you can help it. Their shields are just horribly weak. If you can, put the WC's on the Archeo's. As Alan says, the CCW is awesome. The Archeo's also can get snares to protect the WC on internals. A big plus IMO.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, April 10, 2009 - 11:45 pm: Edit

Tom,

I'm afraid you're thinking of Tournament SFB rules. In "standard" SFB, web generators and snares are both hit on "Flag Bridge" while web casters are hit on "Drone". In standard SFB nothing pads the web caster (see Annex #7E Damage Conversion Chart).

That is an advantage for the NCA over the CCW or NCL if you are limited to one web caster-equipped ship. If your only caster ship is a CCW, a single drone hit could take out all your web casting capability (until the system is repaired). But if you are limited to two web casters, for example, I would rather have them on two different ships rather than one NCA^*.

^*A DPW or DHW is a different story. You would still have the strategic problem of not being able to split the web casters between two different battles. But the DPW and DHW are both great ships.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, April 10, 2009 - 11:50 pm: Edit

Jeremy,

I just noticed in your initial post you said

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Quote:

The NCL has the same power and heavy weapons as a CAW...

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By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Saturday, April 11, 2009 - 02:36 am: Edit

If you're fighting fleet actions then take as many WC as the campaign rules permit. The larger the enemy fleet, the more effective each becomes. The marginal benefit reduces as you add casters - the first is incredible, the second excellent, the third merely good but there is never a point where you can have too many. God help the enemy if there is other terrain already limiting their manoeuvre.

If you are limited by total number of webcasters, deploy one per ship so each one needs a new set of shields punched through to take out. If you're limited by total number of caster equipped ships then build ships with lots of casters.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Monday, April 13, 2009 - 06:33 pm: Edit

Thanks guys. That's what I needed to hear.

Rich, I will have both in our campaign. I'm just trying to think ahead about how to deploy the ships...who will work better with who...that kind of thing.

NCM...Licks chops!

By Kevin Humar-Barrett (Cheethorne) on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 08:53 am: Edit

I am also playing Tholians in a campaign, but I don't have a lot of experience in playing Tholians in battles.

In reading the descriptions of the Neo-Tholian Command Modules, it says that the Tholians used the forward section as a separate ship in tactical encounters as opposed to just using it as an emergency ship like the Federation and the Klingons.

What exactly would you do with the command modules as a separate unit? Is there any real benefit to doing this, and if so, what are the circumstances when I would want to do it?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 12:40 pm: Edit

Kevin,

I almost never separate a CoM during a battle. Not only do you have to wait 32 impulses before the module can raise shields (I think it's 32 impulses - it's been so long since I did separate a module during combat that I can't recall for certain), but the CoM generates so little power on its own that it's not very effective in combat even with shields up. There is a scenario (which I have never played) set in the Tholian home galaxy in which the Neo-Tholians are trying to deal with smugglers and the opponents are freighters that scatter in all directions to keep from being boarded. The suggested tactics for that scenario include separating the CoM (might be a Light Command Module from an NDD or NFF - don't recall) to pursue freighters fleeing in different directions. But that's not very relevant to a heavy combat situation.

Where have I used the separation ability? After combat. During a campaign I once fought a battle in which I had both an NCA and NCL. Both ships took internals in excess of my ability to repair "at the front". The NCL did not take a drone (web caster) hit and took left and right, but not center, warp hits. So I was able to apply all the internals to the rear hull. The NCA also took a few internals, including a web caster, but I was able to apply almost all of them to the CoM. (It also took a couple of warp engine hits, but the number was small and I was able to repair those.) When the battle was over I switched CoMs, pairing the undamaged NCL CoM with the almost undamaged NCA rear hull. The NCA remained on station and was to all intents and purposes 100% combat effective, while the damaged NCL with the damaged CoM returned to a BATS for repair. Without the ability to switch modules, I either would have had to leave damaged ships on the line, or pull both ships back to base.

By Kevin Humar-Barrett (Cheethorne) on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 01:42 pm: Edit

Ugg, 32 impulses is a long time to wait before it can use its shield's.

I figured it wouldn't be that good, outside of special circumstances when having lots of smaller ships is beneficial, but I wanted to make sure.

Another Question:
As far as fleet / squadron tactics go (in a non-historical campaign where any particular race could be an enemy), what is the main thing to watch out for as the Tholians?

The ISC have reasons to fear Web Casters and the DisDevs, which play havoc on the Eschlon Formation, but do the Tholians have any such vulnerabilities? I can see from the previous discussion that plasmas are not too hard to handle with careful planning and a Web Caster or too, but what about drones, Hydran fighters, etc?

By Tom Carroll (Sandman) on Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 12:06 am: Edit

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Quote:

I'm afraid you're thinking of Tournament SFB rules. In "standard" SFB, web generators and snares are both hit on "Flag Bridge" while web casters are hit on "Drone". In standard SFB nothing pads the web caster (see Annex #7E Damage Conversion Chart).

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By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 01:31 am: Edit

Kevin: The major threat to Tholians is long ranged massed fire that knocks out web casters. It is difficult to close on a moving opponent while always maintaining a wall of cast web to stop direct fire, especially if the Tholians are attempting heavy weapons fire of their own.

Drones and fighters both become very dangerous in a short ranged fight. Cast web won't solidify in time.

The major mistake Tholian opponents have made has been to focus too much on riding the cast web magic carpet to victory. Sometimes, using a web fist would have served them better. Sometimes, the clever web trap being setup has a weakness that could be exploited. Don't let the wonderful web caster blind you to the rest of the Tholian ship.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 01:36 am: Edit

I agree completely with Richard Wells. As with any ship with a special toy, try to master the ship without it then use the toy as a coup de gras.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Saturday, April 18, 2009 - 10:26 pm: Edit

What Loren and Rich said.

Plus, Neo-Tholians really, truly, hate plasma and Hydran gunboats.

But most folks hate them as well, so it's a wash.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Sunday, March 07, 2010 - 10:37 pm: Edit

I have a random question, and this seemed the most appropriate place to ask.

Does anyone actually *use* the pinwheel rules?

I am not asking if doing a pinwheel makes sense, is a good idea, or anything like that. (Though we can if you want.) I just want to know if anyone has actually used the pinwheel rules.

I imagine a few of the true "die-hards" might have given it a whirl once. But did you ever use it again? Remember, WS-III gives any qualifying Tholian force the option to form a pinwheel (with surrounding web!) prior to the start of a scenario. Does anyone ever actually take advantage of that?

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Sunday, March 07, 2010 - 11:07 pm: Edit

Mike
As described in the original scenario it was a tactic born of desperation. As a dedicated Tholian tactician I never used it, nor could imagine using it in any situation where it wasn't a last gasp effort.
regards
Stacy

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Monday, March 08, 2010 - 05:04 am: Edit

Mike, I have used it going into a scenario against a force with superior size and manueverability.

I had a Tholian fleet lead by an ATG with a Battle Pod, one CA, and three DDs in a campaign battle. The ATG has massive firepower, but can't shoot and move. My opponents fleet was a Romulan beast that was going to be able to fly rings around me unless I could get a web up.

I used the DDs to set up the pinwheel and force a range 1 engagement. It was still extremely bloody, with multiple cruisers and the ATG going down, but the Tholians ultimately held the field.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, March 08, 2010 - 09:52 am: Edit

A quick question for those Tholian players who like to fly in the Home Galaxy:

What kind of options would you use if you were flying some of the Will's smaller ship classes (anything up to an NCL) against the M81 Galaxy pirate ships from CL40?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, March 08, 2010 - 10:35 am: Edit

Jeremy,

I don't know the details of the campaign you were playing in. But when I read your post I couldn't help wondering why you were using an ATG/Battle Pod in an "open space" fight. As you remarked, it is slow and has poor maneuverability. Personally, I don't much care for it (or for most Battle Tugs) unless I'm assaulting an enemy strong point. It doesn't sound like that was the case in your battle.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Monday, March 08, 2010 - 04:03 pm: Edit

Alan, it was very much a "fleet of the moment" situation. The system had been recently taken, and I had not had a chance to build any fixed defenses. In fact, the tug was there to do precisely that.

The campaign structure often forces you to fight with what ever you happen to have on hand. In this particular case, an ATG and a few supporting ships was all I had.

By Michael Kenyon (Mikek) on Wednesday, April 14, 2010 - 06:39 pm: Edit

As posted in another topic, I'm in the process of starting a new campaign as a Tholian.

To campaign rules, in defense, I'm limited to the web that I can draw in a single turn to be laid pre-game, with housekeeping. That's 1 hex for a PC, 2 for a DD, 5 for my scout, etc.

Any recommendations for solutions that make good use of very small amounts of web?

By John Smith (Johnsmith) on Wednesday, April 21, 2010 - 03:25 am: Edit

Solutions to what problem?

By Michael Kenyon (Mikek) on Wednesday, April 21, 2010 - 04:03 pm: Edit

Sorry ... tactical solutions. Ways to make effective use of reasonably small amounts of web <6 squares, likelihood of non-ship anchors low.

I'm trying to figure out how much web is going to drive my tactics, and my current thinking is "not much".

Most of the tactical literature starts with "ice your wedding cake with a dozen PPCs and then ...", which is convenient if you have
a) a wedding cake
b) a dozen PPCs to work with.

As I have neither, I'm looking for any advise on how to use what I've got, a handful of ships (<6, limited options, almost all Archeo SC4) and very limited web.

Pinwheeling is an option, but without a web to shield, I don't know if it's a good option or not.

I've seen recommendations for using flat web with ship anchors, but I've never tried it.

Some battles will be in asteroids, so I can see advantage there, but not by any means the majority of them (though most will have terrain of some variety.