remember the Phaser-1 upgrade on the Lyran Ships... it only a few points more...and a force of BC and 2x CA is a good small hard hitting force.....that force can take out a BATS with fighters ( no other Support Ships around )....It a great raiding force.....or take a CA and add a CL,SC and possible one FF or 2xFF...still a good raiding force or recon mission.....

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 08:31 pm: Edit

I'd avoid the PFs. For any other race, I'd probably take them, but Lyran PFs are rubbish. Lyran Interceptors are much cheaper and have almost as much firepower, but are still pretty lame.

Assault PF? Whassat?

By Marc Baluda (Marc) on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 08:45 pm: Edit

Jim, Lyran PFs are not rubbish. A two disruptor PF with packs is nasty. It's phaser suite is weak, but it's not rubbish.

By Marc Baluda (Marc) on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 08:56 pm: Edit

I will admit, however, that the sweet spot is R9-10 in a heavy EW environment for Lyran PFs.....

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Wednesday, July 22, 2009 - 03:56 am: Edit

The Lyran PF is fine...when its not fighting other PFs. I think its a decent match for the Klingon or Kzinti (depends on how much they get out of their drone racks), but if forced to fight some of the better PFs out there (Gorn, ISC, Hydran, etc), it will end up hurting.

The good news is the Lyrans get them early. Perhaps the one thing that makes them exceptional...they exist, for a while at least, when the only other game in town is interceptors and heavy fighters. During that window, they are awesome.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, July 22, 2009 - 01:21 pm: Edit

Jeremy,

How can you not list the Tholian as being among the best PFs? Superficially, it seems a bit better than the Lyran. But when you look at the cumulative effect of its capabilities, it's really a lot better.

In general though, I agree with your assessment. If it were up to me, I would drop the cost of the Lyran PF, rather than change the design itself.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Wednesday, July 22, 2009 - 01:35 pm: Edit

Playing the Tholians in a campaign right now, against Marc's Lyrans. Just trying to not rub it in!

In all seriousness, you are absolutely right. The Tholian PF is basically a PC on the cheap, trading disruptors for Ph-1s (sometimes) and with much better command of the EW environment. I guess there are few things a PC can do that a PF can't...but not many.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, July 22, 2009 - 02:03 pm: Edit

The Lyran is also cheap, IIRC. Meaning more hulls to throw at an opponent.

And Lyrans practically carry PF the way Hydrans carry fighters, Most Lyran capital ships are rigged as PFTs, making them a part of the lyran nutricious breakfast, also going a way to make up for Lyran difficulties with fighters.

By Marc Baluda (Marc) on Wednesday, July 22, 2009 - 02:29 pm: Edit

Lyrans are able to put a lot more PFs in your face, that's for sure.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, July 22, 2009 - 02:50 pm: Edit

If it doesn't go all over the place, it doesn't belong in your face.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, July 22, 2009 - 04:15 pm: Edit

Its like they breed like cats.

By Lee Hanna (Lee) on Wednesday, July 22, 2009 - 05:02 pm: Edit

Thanks, all. A scout of some kind may be in order, the Feds were bothering us by staying under ECM drones the last game.

I was thinking about a mauler, too, and may run with that.

It will be 425 BPV, Y178.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, July 22, 2009 - 05:12 pm: Edit

Take a moment and ask yourself if you can predict what they will bring.

You might be able to tailor a fleet to kill them.

By Marc Baluda (Marc) on Wednesday, July 22, 2009 - 06:20 pm: Edit

Oh, I just can't help but give you what you need to beat the Feds:

NTGu w/P-SC - 186 (4xDis, 8xP-1s, 4xspec. sensors, 2xESG)
DWLbup - 115
DWbup+ - 107
17 Commanders Options (MRS, 2xT-bombs, 2xCommando)

or

NSR w/P-B - 202 (2xspec sensors, 6xdisruptors, 4xESGs, lots of P-2s)
DWLbup - 115
DWbup+ - 107
1 commanders options (2xcommando)

Unless you need commander's options, I'd take the second option which shorts you 8xP-1s and 2xspecial sensors, in favor of 12xP-2s, 2xdisruptors, 2xESGs, and 2xpower.

Go eliminate Fed oppression from this region of the galaxy.

By Marc Baluda (Marc) on Wednesday, July 22, 2009 - 06:27 pm: Edit

ooops! Forgot the P-B gives you sick shields....definitely option 2. Jam the tug in his face. Use the two special sensors to shut off ECM drones, then fire. Or alternatively, offensively jam him on photon turns while firing away with the DWs. After he fires, you can afford to blind your own sensors by having the tug fire back.

By John Smith (Johnsmith) on Wednesday, July 22, 2009 - 09:48 pm: Edit

If you look at the Frax PF, it's very similar to the Lyran PF but costs almost 25% less.

By Richard Sherman (Rich) on Wednesday, July 22, 2009 - 11:30 pm: Edit

Lee:

Marc is correct. At this BPV level, that is pretty much an unbeatable Lyran force for which there is no comparable Federation counter. In particular, the new Lyran tugs combined with the newer pods available, especially the scout pods, essentially eliminates factoring any but the most rudimentary player skill/error in a battle when playing with full EW.

I would discourage you from using any of the Lyran NTG-type hulls and any SC pods. I actually would not use the new SC pods for any race. Although not acknowledged by ADB, combat data as well as anecdotal information from players is slowly suggesting these pods when paired with tugs, in particular combat tugs, may be broken in that their BPV cost is not in line with their awesome combat/EW capabilities. This is the reason they have become quite popular with certain Empires (not just Lyrans) in a campaign on this BBS called the Far Stars Campaign.

If you take these ships, you'll almost definitely score a win. But you will almost certainly alienate your opponents, as after one or at best a few experiences fighting against those particular tug+pod combinations, they're likely to either say, "Fine, you win. We're done. What's next?" or "I'm not playing against that ship unless I can play an empire that has an equal counter (see Klingons and Kzinti for two other examples)." You'll both be left with a bad taste in your mouth, and that's not healthy for a regular gaming pair or group.

While BT and maulers do have a slight cheezy factor (as I metioned above), these ships/pods in my view are over the line. If you want a tug+pod combination, and your opponent permits it, just take a conventional Lyran BT.

As a rule, it is generally always a good idea to - when taking an unusual or non-standard ship or group of ships - to ask your oppoents permission to use them. Keeps things friendly.

Marc may or may not disagree, but take his view with a grain of salt. After all, it's not his fault, really. He's an attorney, and was required to have the part of his brain involving fairness and morality removed during his third year of law school. (Kidding, Marc! )

By John Smith (Johnsmith) on Wednesday, July 22, 2009 - 11:57 pm: Edit

Rich: I'm sure I could think of some Fed fleets that have a chance vs. these ships. However, I agree that many of the new Tug + SC pod combos are just sick. They just have so much extra power to run those channels.

Actually, as an excercise, I am thinking a Fed fleet with Tug w/light battle pod, NAC, and NSC might do all right here. That may be a little over the 400 pt mark, tho.

By Kevin Humar-Barrett (Cheethorne) on Thursday, October 29, 2009 - 01:51 pm: Edit

My group is going to be playing a lot of mid to large fleet combat engagements and I am thinking of using a Lyran heavy cruisers as either a fleet leader (for a smaller fleet) or a workhorse in a larger fleet, but I'm not sure which of the three types available is better suited for this purpose.

Between the three heavy cruisers in the Lyran Fleet (CA, NCA, and CAL), what are people's general opinion about which is the better ship general fleet combat (against unknown opponents). Another thing to note is that I won't always be able to have a CC (or NCC) as a fleet leader instead of just a regular CA (or NCA).

I have no way of predicting what opponents I would be facing with my fleets, so I could be facing plasmas, Federation, Hydrans, Klingons, even Omega races.

By Marc Baluda (Marc) on Thursday, October 29, 2009 - 02:13 pm: Edit

The NCA is much better than the CA - it has more phaser-1s and more power. The CAL is okay.

Consider the BC - it's awesome.

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar1) on Thursday, October 29, 2009 - 06:53 pm: Edit

All 4 (BC, CAL, NCA, & CA) have four disruptors but the BC has 9 FA Ph-1s, followed by the CAL with 8, the NCA with 7 and the CA with 5 (add one if centerlined, except the CAL).

Powerwise [warp+non+bty] the BC is 30+14+6, the CAL is 31+8+4, the NCA is 32+8+4 and the CA is 30+7+4.

Take one of each...

By Robert Gamble (Rgamble) on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 03:08 pm: Edit

This is kind of a "cross race" post, but I'm pulling a new player into SFB and unlike other guys I play off and on with, he's "committed". He wanted to try Lyrans, and we've done two Kzinti BC vs Lyran CA battles (both ships have all refits except for the Mech Link refit for the Lyran, and we play with Speed 20 drones).

He's lost twice, although the first battle was a pretty bloody battle. The second battle, he had a plan for the first turn that didn't work at all (didn't charge disruptors, went too fast and turned off with drones and my ship chasing him after doing minor damage to his #1).

Pretty obviously Turn 1 was the reason for his loss in the last game, but he was definitely discouraged. The first thing I want to know is whether the Lyran CA is disadvantaged in the fight.

I consider the Kzinti drones to be slightly better than the Lyran ESGs, and am coming to think that the Lyran ESGs are actually a fair bit worse since they require a lot of power once they've been used. The Lyran has two more Ph 1's (though only 5 of the 6 are likely to fire at the same time) but the Kzinti's arcs are better, the Kzinti has 4 more Phaser 3's, and the Kzinti has better disruptor arcs. There are four obvious advantages of the Lyran: 1) UIM, 2) Two compared to three warp engines, 3) Scanner has a redundant 0 box, 4) Two shuttle bays.

If you consider the CA to be disadvantaged, is there a better Kzinti/Lyran matchup out there (I debated dropping to a CS, or perhaps giving him an NCA).

If you don't consider the CA to be disadvantaged, are there any tactics you could pass on. Yeah, I'll be the one to relay them to him, but my goal at this point is to give him good advice and keep him interested in the game. One thought I had was to aim to get a 9-15 range disruptor shot against the Kzinti on Turn 1, try to get to Range 8 for a UIM assisted shot and then base the next couple of turns on what the drone situation looks like.

By Troy Latta (Saaur) on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 04:05 pm: Edit

When teaching new people, I generally find it useful to spot them a 15-20% BPV advantage.

By Kerry E Mullan (Nomad17) on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 04:32 pm: Edit

If he's brand new start off small and go larger. By this I mean start by doing the cruise drone scenario or even basically launching 10 spd 20 drones in a single stack.

Then have him do 3 seperate EAs.

On the first he's ramming the drones with ESGs to kill him.

Number 2 he uses speed to get around them.

Number 3 he uses a weasel to get around em.
Then move up to destroyers vs each other.

After a couple games with these move up to CAs etc. I think beginning players tend to have issues with coming up with a viable strategy. This way shows him the options and some of the downsides he can draw experience from.

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 04:48 pm: Edit

I agree with Troy. You should have flown a DD or CM. New players don't like it when they get their butts kicked on a regular basis. It's all about the fun.