Robert wrote:
>>Why not hold stand S's( or Rolling delay them>>

Well, sure, that is certainly a possibility that I have used many times, which sometimes works but often doesn't. See, when he *doesn't* cloak and doubles one or both engines and rushes you, you have limited deterrent to keep him from getting to R4 and blasting the crap out of you--a single non enveloped S torp is unlikely to deter him. And so you end up, in best case scenario, trading a busted up shield on the Orion for a down shield and internals. If you launch both S torps, you are either gambling heavily or launching a pseudo, which ends up putting you in the same spot as with 1 S torp.

-Peter

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Wednesday, June 16, 2010 - 11:01 am: Edit

If he cloaks on turn 1 and you have an EPT, make sure you end the turn with the other S launcher facing him.

I still don't think it's a disaster if you EPT and he cloaks on turn 1. He's burned an impulse engine, emptied some of his batts, and maybe surrendered map position. You'll get that S torp back on turn 4.

By Jonathan Biggar (Jonb) on Wednesday, June 16, 2010 - 12:38 pm: Edit

The problem with making sure that the other S launcher is facing him is twofold:

1. You either loose the slight chance of the S bolt from the tube with the EPT hits and does some damage.

or

2. You bolt before i32, which allows the Orion to turn off the cloak on T1 and come out quicker.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, June 16, 2010 - 03:48 pm: Edit

Yeah, it is a problem, getting the armed S torp facing the Orion. The closest you can bolt from and still have a chance to hit, is, what, R12? But given that you lose a bunch of damage, the furthest you really want to bolt from is 10. And as noted, if you bolt before impulse 32, the Orion can just turn off his cloak a couple impulses earlier.

In the instance I was in, I waited till impulse 32 to bolt as I wanted to get as close as possible and it wasn't impossible I was getting true range 7 (1-2 to hit with the cloak range of 19). I could have bolted at true range 10 (probably, like, impulse 29-30), but then the Orion turns off the cloak the next impulse if he wants, and you don't get much out of that other than the opportunity to launch some plasma from 8-10 hexes away right before energy allocation.

By Robert F Estrada (Daredevil) on Wednesday, June 16, 2010 - 04:57 pm: Edit

The Orion doubling 1 engine has 39 power total
( assuming the Hellbore package)

39-4hk, -6 HB's - 24-30 hexes ( 16-19 energy), preplotted HET, possibly small brick on back shield

Even if you launch 1 S torp , probably 2 ( Fake/Real) he has to deal with that.

The next turn, he has to double ~~ just to surive your anchor attempt. or possible Bolt shot on a rear shield as your pursing.


all food for thought


I hate the Orion too!~
vs Any ship! Hehe

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Thursday, June 17, 2010 - 06:03 am: Edit

The Orion do not like to weasel, nor does it like using the cloak. It cost speed, time and as a consequence thereoff also engines.
What does this mean for the Gorn? That launching torps (EPTs) at an Orion is very worthwhile to do. Eventually you will be low enough on torps that the Orion will attack you in earnest, but then he will all ready be short of power to do everything he likes. Let us say he DO cloak T:1 (doubling Imp), and you are rolling your torps. T:2 he need to uncloak and is doubling one engine, counting on you launching an EPT. T:3 he doubles three engines and run through your second EPT and your Fs and shuttles. He will be down five engines at end of turn and that is not counting at least another 2-3 from damage (he could even have lost the entire impulse deck). Next turn he will need to double another engine just to arm weapons and move. Shield reinforcement? Too expensive for him to do now...


So what is the best plot for the Gorn on T:1? Rolling torps and pre-allocate for Het, I think. (One imp in the batts allow for a speed change too.) This leaves you 25 power for speed and shuttles.
If your opponents knows you well then you could do something else to just mess with his plans, but as a standard opening this is probably what you should plot.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, June 17, 2010 - 11:12 am: Edit

Carl wrote:
>>So what is the best plot for the Gorn on T:1? Rolling torps and pre-allocate for Het, I think. (One imp in the batts allow for a speed change too.) This leaves you 25 power for speed and shuttles.>>

Sure. And when he doubles both engines and charges on T1?

You corner dodge, have to top off the plasma on T2, have bad board position, and are getting blasted by OL HBs anyway, just to watch him turn and run form your plasma at 31.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Thursday, June 17, 2010 - 06:26 pm: Edit

Really? I thought launching plasma and turn away was a no brainer. He can run through it, all 50 pt real, or turn away in which case HE will not be in the best position.
Eventually he will catch up with you but will be damaged, and also lack enought firepower to kill you. He need a second attack to finish you off, but by then you have rearmed some torps and he will be weak.

By Robert F Estrada (Daredevil) on Thursday, June 17, 2010 - 07:00 pm: Edit

a R6-R8 by the Orion is not devestating to the Gorn. If the Orion wants to come closer ( ie. R4-R5) he needs to take his chances vs a 50 or 60 pt stack.

If Orion fires, and veers off, the Gorn can slowly turn around the following turn.

Its a tricky battle for a gorn no doubt!


Racer

By Robert F Estrada (Daredevil) on Thursday, June 17, 2010 - 07:02 pm: Edit

New Topic


Scatter Pack use


Best way to deploy? Trac and pickup T1?

6 Mediums? or 4 Fast/2 Mediums?

The Kzinti has a lot of ways to use it.


or Leave it in the bay for later?

Thoughts?

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, June 17, 2010 - 07:16 pm: Edit

For who? The Kzinti or the Klingon?

Assuming the Kzinti, against many opponents I like launching it on T1 to get 10 drones on the map (in 2 stacks), but without the speed 12 tractor shenanagins, as I usually would rather have high speed on T2 than the extra shuttle.

I won't do this against Big Plasma. And usually not the Klingon (where I'll save my SP for counter SP defense).

By Robert F Estrada (Daredevil) on Thursday, June 17, 2010 - 09:26 pm: Edit

Well my concern vs Klinks are the ADD! Evil device


I agree no Scatter pack early vs BP, Gorn can just wade around a stack of 20's, while Roms can simply Cloak out T2, after launching a T1 EPT!
I have read many captians like to unload the drones for later use.. the client makes this difficult to arrange.


Ballistic launching is tricky, but can be nice if timed properly.

How fragile is the Kzinti to interals, getting the scatter pack while still on board my ship?
2oish? 30ish tough call


Pete, I like your 2 stacks of drones, and havd seen you do this vs a few opponents.


At an Orgins ( during a Patrol game) Joe Good had his drones behind his ship vs my HYD I was perplexed what to do at the time! I fired at R8 and veered off..found a 10pt brick ...nasty.. fighters already on board .


Racer

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Thursday, June 17, 2010 - 10:49 pm: Edit

As a Klink I would love to see the Kzinti SP used against my SP. It doesn't happen much, because I usually plan to use my SP to counter Kzinti drones.

Delaying use of the SP is very tricky. The primary obstacle is not usually losing the SP to internals, it's losing the SP to opposing fire from range < 8 before it releases. It can be used successfully, but is very situational.

Ballistic targeting in tourney duels is standard procedure for me. It is just insurance against shenanigans where people turn off and try for range 36+. In practice, a T1 ballistic SP, set for range 27 or so, is operationally identical to a seeking SP. Against cloakers, it is actually easier to use a ballistic SP, as you can launch it while they are cloaked. With a short release range, you can ensure the drones only release if he fully uncloaks. (You're still hosed if he launches and ducks back under, but maybe you were using it to make him keep paying for the cloak.)

One thing I don't see many people do on SFBOL with their SP drones is spread them out. If you put all your drones in one stack, you are just asking for your opponent to slip by them. Spreading them out does mean your opponent can pick them off piecemeal, but if your position relative to them is good, you generally come out better that way than if he avoids the whole stack.

Mixing drone speeds in the SP is only good if you are planning to make him shoot down some drones and then follow them up with more. Otherwise, you are probably better off with all speed 20s.

In some cases, it can be good to mix in a type-4. It forces opponents to use labs and otherwise be more cautious when dealing with the stack. Also note that that a SP launched on impulse 17 or later that releases 5 drones might have a type-4 or might just have 5x1. Don't use the a type-4 in the SP if your opponent has ADDs.

Recovering the shuttle T1 can be handy but the problem is the opponents where you most want to keep the shuttle (plasma), you also most need to not be limited to speed 24 on T2. You could beam a pilot aboard, and hope to land the thing several turns later.

By Robert F Estrada (Daredevil) on Thursday, June 17, 2010 - 11:14 pm: Edit

Awesome info Andy! & Peter from earlier!


Sounds like you have aced in the Kzinti!
I know Pete has aced in the Kzinti a few times.

HYD and Kzinti similar , but Kzinti is way more forgiving and less dice fickle.


Face to Face play is totally differnt that online play where you read your opponents intentions by body language. Almost like poker!

My HYD face to face was usually, all in!


been burned a few too many times online by a fickle DAC or missing w/ a HB at an inopportune time. Or mis-timing my fighter launches to captialize on opponent errors. HYD still my fav race...heh

Thanks!

Racer

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Friday, June 18, 2010 - 12:18 am: Edit

I have not aced in the Kzinti. I have in the Klingon, for whom the SP may be even more important.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Friday, June 18, 2010 - 03:47 am: Edit

I appreciate as Rommmie that players don't launch the SP Please continue keep it in the bay!

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, June 18, 2010 - 08:14 am: Edit

Andy wrote:
>>As a Klink I would love to see the Kzinti SP used against my SP. It doesn't happen much, because I usually plan to use my SP to counter Kzinti drones.>>

Which creates a funny dynamic--as the Kzinti, I feel like I'm fighting an uphill battle against the Klingon (I give it a 6-4 for the Klingon, historically speaking. One of the few bad matchups for the Kzinti, for my money), and generally assume that if the two SPs nullify each other, it is a better wash than the two SPs just being on the board, as if the Kzinti launches the SP early (i.e. T2), the Klingon has all the incentive in the world to just stop and weasel on T2, which is (contrary to popular wisdom) *bad* for the Kzinti.

So holding the SP until the Klingon launches it's SP seems like a reasonable plan. If the Klingon launches its SP, it is unlikely to weasel on T2 (due to all the drones on the map), and the SP drones aren't that likely to get to the other SP drones before the end of T1, preserving mystery.

And if the Klingon never launches the SP, the Kzinti can launch it later in the game when it seems useful.

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Friday, June 18, 2010 - 01:29 pm: Edit

Robert said:

---

Quote:

I agree no Scatter pack early vs BP, Gorn can just wade around a stack of 20's, while Roms can simply Cloak out T2, after launching a T1 EPT!

---

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, June 18, 2010 - 04:31 pm: Edit

Yeah, against the Gorn, launching a T1 SP isn't that bad, although you are then committed to running through his plasma to get him (which, if it is an EPT and piecemeal launched F torps, works great!), but really, I'll tend to hold the SP and see what he does on T1--if he launches an enveloper, you can run the first one out and then charge through the second one after dropping the SP.

Against the Romulan, holding the SP is usually the best option, possibly unloading a couple drones for reloads and kicking out the 4 drone SP to encourage him to cloak at some point (or when you know he can't and he needs to come to you).

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Friday, June 18, 2010 - 05:57 pm: Edit

I agree the Kzinti has an uphill fight against the Klingon. As a Klingon, if I can nullify the Kzinti's drones with my own, then I have 5p1 to the Kzinti's 4p1, UIM on my disruptors, better turn mode and one more power. On the other hand, launching my SP against the Kzinti seems fruitless, as he has 8p3, 4 racks to launch counter-drones, as well as tractors, SS, etc. Cancel out the SPs, and I can probably deal with his rack drones with p2s, p3s and ADDs, and come out ahead on offensive weaponry. If both SPs are used offensively, the Klink must either stop and weasel (killing his maneuverability advantage and allowing the Kzinti to drop back and build another drone wave) or end up using p1s to shoot drones. Meanwhile, the Kzinti deals with my SP with p3s and maybe a rack drone or two.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, June 18, 2010 - 11:16 pm: Edit

Yeah, I've never seen the "deal with the Klingon's SP with P3s and a rack drone or two" plan work out well. 'Cause then the Klingon makes you deal with two more fast drones while shooting down yours with ADDs.

For my money, trading SP for SP is a good trade for the Kzinti in this match up. As is trading SP in the bay for SP in the bay (i.e. we both hold them forever, waiting for the other one to launch first). The Kzinti needs to get in close and stay there for a while (at which point the UIM and ADD cease to be particularly important), and the Klingon having those 6xSP drones on the map makes that much harder.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 02:08 am: Edit

I fail to see the merit of Not using SP vs Roms.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 09:05 am: Edit

Who said "don't use a SP vs Roms"? What, you are gonna launch it inert just out of spite? Unload all 6 drones and launch it as a manned shuttle?

The point is simply that launching it on the first turn vs a Romulan is a questionable plan. If they launch an enveloper, and then a T2 enveloper, the Kzinti is going to do what? Eat them both to make the T1 SP useful and then watch the Romulan cloak out on T3 to shake the drones after you have eaten 2 envelopers and some F torps? Yeah. That'll work great!

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 11:10 am: Edit

Don't be afraid to launch a ballistic SP against a cloaked ship, either. They come up, the shuttle pops...and there are a bunch of drones to complicate their planning.

Seeking weapons are largely about making the other guy do something he'd rather not be doing.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 11:23 am: Edit

Cloaking is not something I, as Rommie, like to do. Even for the Orion it sucks, despite the edge in power. Therefore...

• I would try use EPTs to force you into such a position that I do not need to cloak.

• This because if I am forced to cloak I will take damage. In my experience I can expect one downed shield per turn cloaked.

• Two drones per turn for 11 turns will not force me to cloak, not even if of you build a wave of four.

• If using EPTs I will have little power for speeds. A typical plot would be Hk 4, Torps
10, Shuttles 2 which leaves 22 for other things.

• It is difficult for Rommies to arm epts and use speed to evade drones. He can use phasers but eventually that is something he need to put back in the caps.

• Arming torps, recharge batteries and phasers is not possible to do while cloaked.

• That fact make an un-eventful rearm turn so very important.

Of course , you may discus the timing of the SP deployment, but turn one is not bad. After all, it do mess up the Rommies plans.
And that is what drones are for in the first place!

• Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the decellaration limits he Rommie will be under if he cloaks. This make it tricky to uncloak again if the Klink/Kzin/Shark is close.