After the introduction of the first Generation X ships (and related technology), the Federation Star fleet ONI (Office of Naval Intelligence) produced a (rather negative) assessment of the ability of the Tholians to produce X ships.

Not, specifically, that the Tholians could produce such ships, but rather that the state of the Tholian economy would limit the number of such ships that could be produced.

One possible solution that the ONI suggested might be a viable option (and it is interesting that both the Klingons and Romulans both also produced similar ideas) was that by the use of the Tholian Web generators on the PC class ships, a PC (titled for this discussion as PC#1) would generate 1 point of Web, and the ship/technitions would "detune" the ships upper dorsal fin so that the "glop of Web" would adhere to the upper most portion of the ship (again, for discussion purposes, id'd as PC#1).

PC#2, would "detune" the center, hull portion of the ship, and manuver into a position above PC#1, and lodge itself in the "glop of web".

one ship must power the web generator with 1 point of power each turn to maintain the integrity of the web. the other ship must power and attach a tractor beam to maintain the allignment of the ships, as they "Balance" each other on the "Glop of web".

The net result are two PC class hips that have technically "merged" into single unit held together by the web, and held in alignment by the tractor beam.

Now, it would be a fair question to ask, what does this mean", to which I suggest we could discuss the implications and determine if such a proposal #1, can function in SFBs. #2. determine what negative factors such a procedure would introduce, and #3, list the benefits, (if any) such a procedure would grant to the twin PCs.

Comments to follow.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 06:27 pm: Edit

The list of negatives would include:
1. each ship would have to continue a individual ships for energy allocation purposes... technically they are not "docked" and therefor do not have the ability to transfer crew units, cargo power or anything else other than by shuttle craft or transporter.
2. Movement cost would double (since there are two ships, each would have to pay for movement energy cost, and ideally they would cooperate as far as where and how much energy the put together for total movement.
3. Turn Modes of the combined ships should be worse than the individual ships have, and any nimble status would be lost so long as the ships are twinned.
4. the twinned ships could not successfully complete a HET(High Energy Turn). any time a HET is attempted, it automatically results in breack down.
Positive factors:
1. any damage the twinned ships receive would be divided evenly between both ships. applied first to shields then into the ships on a 50-50 basis.
2. Firing arcs of the two ships would be unimpeded.

Other ideas, suggestions, critical comments?

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 06:28 pm: Edit

To share power the ships would need to dock. The tholians would need excptions to all the docking rules specifincaly intended to keep ships from combining into a single supership.

The tholians would have to develop a kind of web that they currently don't have, namely web that moves rather than restricts movement.

No offense, jeff, but it sounds like you'd need a rat's nest of rules, exceptions to other rules and special cases to make the concept work.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 06:31 pm: Edit

Oh, and one other thought... the twinned ships would be unable to use its web generator during the period it is twinned (the web generator can only do one function at a time, not designed to "multi-task".

Same thing with the Tractor beam... if an enemy ship tries to tractor the twinned ships, the tholians must win the tractor auction (counting the tractor beam in use holding the ships together) as its "negative tractor beam"... if the enemy ship wins, the pin tail formation must be disolved.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 06:35 pm: Edit

John Trauger, the ships do not share power, and are not docked... simply held in the glob of web.

The rules already have provision for movemnt interactions with tractored ships... it seems to me, the exceptions to make this work already exist.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 07:22 pm: Edit

The existing rules for Tholian Pinwheels say it won't work (C14.12), otherwise at least one ship could use warp power to move the pinwheel even if (assuming three PCs) the movement cost was 1 (i.e., a top speed of 13 including a point of impulse power).

Sorry, but even though the ships in a pinwheel are "docked" (can share power and etc.), what holds them together is web, not normal docking, and if they cannot move while "held together by a glob of web", you cannot move.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 11:00 pm: Edit

There are many significant differences between what was proposed and what constitutes a Pin Wheel.

1. in a pin wheel, all three tholians are docked "stern to-stern to- stern." in the proposal, the two PCs are technically trapped in web... as I envision it, the web acts as a spring or shock absorber intended to prevent the ships from damaging each other... the application of the tractor beam is to ensure that the two ships remain in static position with regard to each other.

2. In a pin wheel, the three ships act as a combined unit (see rule C14.1

in the proposal, the two ships share shields, and nothing else... and are treated as being connected by an in place active tractor beam.

3. with regard to rule C14.12, it appears to relate specifically to Pin Wheels, but this is a case of 2 ships trapped in web, connected by a tractor. it has some similarity to a pin wheel but the proposal does not block the PCs warp nacelles, nor is the "Pin Tail" surrounded by web.

It seemed that if two ships could get "stuck" in a small (1 hex size) strand of Web (specifically not anchored to anything or other ships) such as "Free Standing Web" rule (E12.22) it might be possible to use that ability to "connect" two tholian ships.

I didnt read it correctly earlier, but I see now (when I follow thru all of the rules cross references that I missed a key point, that the free standing web disapates very quickly... too quickly for the purposes I intended to use it for.

Ah well... another proposal dies on the rocks of the rules!

Proposal withdrawn.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 11:35 pm: Edit

Jeff Wile:

Not belaboring the point, but what you miss in your point #1 is that despite being docked stern to stern to stern, the Pinwheel can move at speed one using impulse engines (C14.13). If they could use impulse engines in that configuration, then they could use warp engines, but warp engine use is specifically and completely excluded, not even for tactical maneuvers (C14.12).

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, June 16, 2010 - 11:04 am: Edit

Steve Petrick:

Aside from the proposal having been withdrawn, there was no declared Anchor Point... the concept being that the ships, glued together by a "Glob" of web, could, in theory (note, the theory already having been disproved) move.

But, again, you have already more than adequately made your point.

the proposal was already withdrawn, what more would you have me do?

Respectfully,
Jeff Wile.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, June 16, 2010 - 12:23 pm: Edit

Jeff Wile:

My apologies, I just thought the last point needed to be made in response to your point #1 because you and I are not the only ones reading this. I felt it was needed so that others following in your footsteps might be aware of it since it had not been mentioned before.

Respectfully:

Steven Paul Petrick

By Mike Kenyon (Mikek) on Wednesday, June 16, 2010 - 12:47 pm: Edit

Thank you both for populating my brain full of evil ideas. Even if warp movement isn't permissible, a Spd1 pinwheel may be preferable against say sublight Roms in EY. I hadn't considered using the Pinwheel as anything other than a turtle until I read this.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, June 16, 2010 - 01:01 pm: Edit

Mike Kenyon:

See rule (C14.18).

Have fun using Pin wheels on the offensive!

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Thursday, June 17, 2010 - 12:00 am: Edit

Any Tholian that pinwheels vs sublight Roms in EY deserves what happens to him....

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Thursday, June 17, 2010 - 01:07 am: Edit

This proposal is for the 2X era. Why are we assuming that the Tholians don't make tech innovations that would side step the limitations under the current pinwheel rules? After all after the arrival of the 312th the Tholians can finally get legendary engineers, they probably picked up all kinds of useful data from the Feds during the General War when the Feds were sneaking some tech to them.

Prior to the arrival of the 312th the Tholians were limited economically and technologically. After their arrival the only remaining absolute constraint is economic.

Even PRIOR to the arrival of the 312th the Tholians fine tuned their web technology so it as more energy efficient. The 2X era allows us to step outside of the box to some degree.

regards
Stacy

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, June 17, 2010 - 03:56 pm: Edit

Stacy Brian Bartley:

Slightly incorrect. The Tholians in the Home Galaxy had webs that operated like the improved webs. All you are seeing in the Milky Way is the regaining of technology (and that sort of weak since they did not discover how to make cast web until the 312th showed up), not the development of somethin new that did not exist in the Home Galaxy.

X-Tech is an improvement, but followed the arrival of the 312th.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Thursday, June 17, 2010 - 06:17 pm: Edit

SPP
Which doesn't rule out improvements in web tech which would allow this tactic. I'm not sure it's that great an idea, but neither am I sure that arguing PRESENT web rules should preclude a 2X innovation of this or any other type when we get around to exploring 2X is a valid argument.

Ultimately, I think Tholians should be able to figure out how to build ships akin to those built in the old galaxy in size and style. After all if they have the machinery to build starbases they should have the technology to build these ships, but I can see how it might not have occurred them until a legendary engineer from the 312th asked them why the $#%$% they weren't doing it?

It seems like an obvious conclusion but since I almost lost my cat this last weekend by failing to reach an obvious conclusion, I can attest it's quite possible for Tholians in the Holdfast to not notice that the #12 support girder on the starbase fabricator machine is virtually identical to the #32 hull beam produced by the war ship fabricator back in the old galaxy. In this same way they realized that the CM Module produced by the warship fabricators is fundamentally the same as the PC produced by the civilian and police auxiliary fabricator. In short the main thing that would fuel tech development in the Holdfast post General War is the fresh perspective offered by the engineers of the 312th in interaction with the make do innovation managed by the engineers in Tholia.

Presumably the machinery they used to fabricate Tholia ITSELF is still on site, and I suspect it can build some pretty big stuff. Again it just may not have occurred to them to USE them. They were after all only CIVIL engineers as opposed to shipyard engineers;)

As ever the MAIN brake on Tholian strength will be economic even in the 2X era.
regards
Stacy

By Steven E. Ehrbar (See) on Thursday, June 17, 2010 - 08:04 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

Any Tholian that pinwheels vs sublight Roms in EY deserves what happens to him...

---

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Friday, June 18, 2010 - 03:25 pm: Edit

Nah.

Tholia was produced in the Sphere construction yard (its an entire solar system) and then towed into place.

Obviously, thats why there were those handy towing thingys around when they needed to flee!

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Friday, June 18, 2010 - 03:44 pm: Edit

Mike
You can't really believe they didn't build these things in situ (And I do sense you may be jesting) Unless you envision an economy of unlimited energy it's just too preposterous.

Beyond that a star system would only have the resources to build maybe one or two of these absent complete conversion of the matter of a planetary system. Which means conversion of matter from hydrogen and methane of Jovian giants to more solid matter and I just don't believe the Tholians had that type of power - because if they DID those spheres could double as industrial strength Deathstars.

I do agree the large units you describe must have existed and have been at Tholia at the time of revolution given the current theory of how they moved the sphere (Which I have issues with. When I originally proposed the sphere way back when they built it HERE. But moving it is the narrative we're going with....).

But that still doesn't disagree with my notion that the starbase fabricators being able to produce hull parts for larger ships. It just may not have OCCURRED to the Holdfast prior to the arrival of the 312th.


regards
Stacy

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, June 18, 2010 - 04:23 pm: Edit

You just want a NBB in the Milky Way...

BTW, Stacy, welcome back.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Friday, June 18, 2010 - 04:38 pm: Edit

John
Actually I was never that enamored of the NBB. I figure just armor up some of those sphere tugs...

In more serious vein, an NBB doesn't make that much sense given the Holdfast's economy or defense needs. Also given that I'm proposing this conceptual breakthrough would take place coinciding with the 2X era an NBB would be a dinosaur.

I would however have no objections to a 2X NeoTholian CA...

I could also see some merger of the original Tholian design with MWG Tholians say for instance a CM module ugraded ala a Tholian CW hull. What we may end up with may have an obvious descent from both the NeoTholian and Holdfast Tholian design methods.

regards
Stacy

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Friday, June 18, 2010 - 05:04 pm: Edit

IIRC there is canon in the background that states categorically that the Holdfast in the Alpha quadrant was the last one on its "branch" and it was towed into place. And its "tow stuff" was still hanging around so they used it to move it.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Friday, June 18, 2010 - 05:12 pm: Edit

Mike
I have to confess, that I haven't seen everything on this matter. But still my statement about the sheer amount of material to build a sphere even of the limited size of the Tholian spheres is HUMONGOUS.

As for the tow equipment, it may have been more akin to the Bussard Ramjets used as attitude adjustment for Larry Niven's Ringworld. It may have been that they towed it into place around the "pseudo-star" at it's center (In fact it was shortly after reading Ringworld Engineers that SVC got the notion that the thing could be MOVED).

But even if the sphere was NOT built in situ it MUST have fabricators capable of repairing itself which would STILL be able to fabricate larger construction elements.

regards
Stacy

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Friday, June 18, 2010 - 05:21 pm: Edit

I always figured that the only logical explanation was that the Sphere was a generation-style STL ship, and the current crop of Tholians have forgotten 99% of the tech.

And yes, they would worship the Sphere as a god....

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Friday, June 18, 2010 - 05:44 pm: Edit

Mike
The problem is you can't reconcile the timeline with a sublight trip from the home galaxy.
regards
Stacy