Archive through July 20, 2010
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: General Tactics Discussion:
Federation Tactics 2:
Archive through July 20, 2010
Robert,
yeah, I don't thnk George's advice will work either. It'd be too easy for the selts to adopt a slow retrograde once the charge is obvious and dare the defenders to stray out of the base's EW lending range. the fighters could but the selts would start popping them despite the shift.
Oh, hey...do you have mines?
Pull the selts to 15- and the fighters won't need to charge to take their shots.
No mines yet.
OK... I guess I have to read more carefully. 
(Apologies on getting the narrow salvo aspect wrong)
As to the 16 deployed shuttles, on the surface it looks like a problem but it really isn't. It just means the fighters have a different target to engage first.
Just the threat of a charge will be enough for you to regain control of the battle.
Based on my previous post, the carriers never leave the umbrella of of the base staions ECM lending. They actually never get close enough to the parked selts that there is a change in the "to hit" probability of the Ph-2s and PCs. Whether the carriers were parked at the base at range 30 or move up 12-14 hexes closer to the selts, they'll still be immune to get hit by their weapons.
On the first turn, it would be a safe bet he hasn't allocated movement for his ships. Therefore, if he wants to do a retrograde, he will have to kill his rerserve power to do it. More liklely, he will probably move up his shuttles to engage the fighters next turn. I wouldn't recommend firing at the shuttles just yet unless they are already at a range 10 to the fighters by the end of the turn (small target modifier bonus).
On the second turn, continue with the plan but be aware on how he declared his opening movements.
1) If he starts retrograding, congratulatios your base and DHD are safe from his weapons this turn. (Focus on repairs)
2) If he stays parked, look at his shuttle movements. If they're aggressive, then he probably will be declaring a mid-turn speed change. It could still be forwards or backwards so but the longer he waits the better for you.
If the shuttles are passive, then he will probably stay parked and wait for you to come to him.
Either way, Using the same firing set-up for the second turn (1/2 squadron each breakdown on firing pattern), have your fighters engage the shuttles at close range (2) fire their 20x ph-3s and fusion beams (one charge at each shuttle)
[His shuttles do not have built-in EW, cannot be lent EW from their home ships (not scouts) and have to go thru the +10 ECM protection of your fighters]
By the end of the turn you will most likely have eliminated or at least removed a good portion of his shuttle screen and you will still have at least 60 fusion charges on your fighters. (10 with 4 charges each and 10 with just 2 each)
If he retrograded then have the fighters AND carriers circle their loaction and wait him out (keep their speeds up and keep the carriers under the base's ECM umbrella). He will first have to come to a stop before he comes back in on you. The fighters can always do a HET if they need to
If he is charging... oblige him
(He's going to lose either a ship or have both heavily damaged next turn)
I'm definately not the best when it comes to fighter tactics but with Hydrans this is how I would play it. (Probably with Vudar as well). If you dont pursue, then you will get to rebuild the shields on your base and DHD.
[EDIT: I'm not suggesting Robert follow this strategy, it's just how I see the problem and how I might approach an answer for it. I welcome any comments on it]
Good luck Robert on whichever you go with.
Thank you much :-)
1) If he starts retrograding, congratulatios your base and DHD are safe from his weapons this turn. (Focus on repairs)
The fighters will purchase 3-5 turns breather for the base. Then they'll be gone.
Just be sure whatever gets done in those turns is enough to turn the tide of battle otherwise the fighters are just being thrown away.
Docking ships to the base, which I think is the game-changing move, doesn't require the fighters sacrifice themselves. Once the base can lend to itself it becomes invulnerable to Selt fire until they hit range-15. You'll have a minimum of 2 1/2 turns repair time while he closes (as Gerge points out, one turn will be spent sitting there unless they want to burn reserve power for a mid-turn speed change). If he wants to keep his shuttle cloud with him as his moves in, you get a minimum of 3, possibly 4 turns.
While they approach, Russell can drop his shields and put a makeshift TB minefield in the Selt path, or whatever he wants.
And all the time the P-4s can still beat on the selts, or their shuttles if the ships go high ECM
Well for anyone that is interested...
We fought on for a little while longer. At one point the Selt ships began closing and I sent the Stingers out to greet them.
After concentrating most of his firepower on my FT's (with carrier loaned EW and E-Maneuvers), he killed two of them and damaged another two. I in turn knocked down Shield-1 on the Selt CA (but no real internals to speack of) and he then decided to leave.
Sadly, he is a stubborn guy and has decided that he will re-engage later on before I can bring in reinforcements. Therefore we will be effectively fighting this battle again. LOL
I want to state however that the BS does NOT have enough power to loan to two different units at once in addition to generating 6ECM while at the same time having enough to arm all of it's weapons. At best, it can apply the 6ECM and loan 4 ECM to two units and have enough power let over to trickle about 3 power or so per turn to the Phasers. Keep in mind, it's only a Base station.
I abandoned the Docking idea last night because the main reason I wanted to do so was to have the Carriers loan some of their power to the base for it's own weapons use. But they CANNOT dock to the base while also loaning EW to their fighters. It is for that reason I abandoned the docking. I suppose it's worth considering docking the DHD to the base, but I was hoping to use it as a stand off unit with the threat of it's photons.
Well, the good news is you can repair both damaged fighters and replace the lost ones from the carrier's spares.
Considering you needed the scout channels on the carriers, there was no need to add any ECM to either the base or DHD. If you know he's spending power for 6 ECCM unless you can top it by other means (scout channels/EM), save your power for something else.
For the DHD, if it was not docked to the base, then putting that spare energy into EM would give you the extra ECM for a +2 shift, which he could not overcome. You could then drop it later when your ready to fire your photons.
If you have the same setup again, try having both fighter squadrons work off of one carrier, having it lend EW to both squadrons, and let the other carrier dock to the base, giving it the extra power.
You could then have the DHD (under EM) travel with the active carrier and be immune to damage when above range 15 to the Selts. The base would only need one scout channel for the active carrier then while it is protecting the fighters.
Agreed. good thought. If ships go EM, that frees the base to lend ECM to itself and force the Selts to move closer.
Or you could just move all your mobile elements off 15 or so hexes on the other side of the base and let the base self protect. After 10 turns of doing nothing he might move closer. Obviously keep you mobile elements at spd 15 ish so if he does close you can flee or come in to beat up on slow moving Selts.
John,
Don't forget, a carrier cannot lend EW while under EM. With no EWF fighters or EW fighter pods, the carrier's EW lendimg is the only protection the fighters have in getting close to the Selts.
George,
My advice is base on my perception that the base needs to be able to lend ECM to itself for Russell to win. letting the Selts hang out at 30 gives them the advantage. That's the long and short.
The question is simply the best way free up a channel for the base.
IIRC the base does have 2 sensor channels, so the it can defend itself and one carrier. It can't defend more than one ship or its ECM drops to 6 and the selts sit out at 30 and phone the game in.
Fighters can be loaded on board the carrier that doesn't get loaned EW. That way it can EM without worrying about loaning EW to fighters. They can be launched in plaenty of time once the selts decide to charge.
Alternately, the fighters belonging to the carrier that has to EM can take your suggestion and move out behind the base beyond PC range until the Selts charge.
John,
I never suggested that the fighters move to behind the base. (That was Kerry's )
The fighters (ST-1s) are restricted to speed 12. If they stay behind the base (until the the Selts reach R30), by the time they can cover the distance to reach the Selts they would have completed their battle pass on the base (or parked carrier) and moved off.
From my previous posts I was describing that the fighters and the carriers (now one carrier and the DHD) get into position by the time the Selts get to range 30.
ST-1s roughly 20 hexes out in front of the base using EM, the carrier around 10 hexes behind the fighters loaning 4 ECM to each squadron (it can move up to 4 hexes closer to the fighters and still have the protection from the base), the DHD can either stay with the carrier or move ahead a little (no closer than 16 hexes to the Selts) under EM.
[Note: that this is the end position when the Selts are at range 30, they can all travel together as a tight group saving on EM and lent ECM when the range is more open]
[Note II: You can have the other carrier beam over it's deck crews to the active carrier thereby doubling up all the fighter boxes with DCs]
This way the only targets he can shoot at (and not too effectivly) are the fighters. The base and the active carrier have the scout channels, the DHD has the EM, the parked carrier has the passive fire control ECM bonus (I forgot about that one ), and the fighters have the built-in ECM, the EM and the carrier's lent ECM.
[Note III: IF the base rotates each turn, then the carrier also turns a fresh shield, while docked, as well. If the base doesn't turn, then the docked carrier is protected from damage because it's behind the base]
If he wants to just pick on the fighters he would probabnly do that from beyond range 30 to the base. Have them fall back to the carrier, land the damaged ones, and move the DHD out a few hexes in front of them he can then fire photons (prox/std). If the Selts are beyond range 30 it can switch the scout channel on itself over to the DHD.
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Under your suggestion, you are giving the movement advantage to the Selts. All he has to do is hang at range 30 and circle around building up his speed. When you least expect it, he goes in fast to range 15 and zips out again in the same turn. The fighters can only move up to speed 11(EM), while the ships only have reserve warp available to change speeds. He can be in and out of there before the fighters can get into range and before the DHD can get to range 8 on them.
George,
At worst, half the fighters would be out of position.
If the selts circle the base to build up speed for a battle pass, this is the cue fot any outlying fighters to return to the base. having them hang out in BFE would only get them sniped by circling selts.
Having reserve warp is fine for the ships. where are they really going to go? Indeed, if the Selts do make a battle pass, Russel's ships will want power for their ECM, fighter ECM and some kind of shield brick. And with tacs they have have the movement advantage over the selts.
Russell wants everything clustered around the base for interlocking firepower, with the exception of the ST-1s, which combine with the base P-4s to (hopefully) blow a hole in a ship's shield as it goes by.
Your way, ships don't dare move out more than 15 from the base or they're dogmeat. IIRC that means the fighters can't get out past their carriers' lending range or THEY're dogmeat. That's 20 hexes from the base, and because the fighters move at speed-11 under EM, the selts will see it coming a mile off and back up out of fighter fusion range. they won't have to go far.
Then they start popping fighters. Even one per round is one less fighter for the base's defense. The selts would like nothing better than to fight russel's ships in a slow retrograde moving away from the base's support.
If all else fails, they pick up the siege and move to the other side of the base, which they can do much easier than the ship arrangement you are proposing.
What would you expect the fighters to accomplish beyond temporarily standing the selts back from the base? How do the Hydrans actually win?
1) I have no spare fighters. 
2) The real object of the fighting is the base. If I hang onto the base, I keep the campaign hex we are fighting over. If I lose the base, I lose it all.
3) He has the luxury of eliminating my units bit by bit and (because of the robustness of the Selt ships), he can take a lickin and keep on kickin (to a point).
4) I suspect that what I really need is a way to deal a crucial crippling blow to one of the two ships (more easily done to the CA). That way it will drive him to leave once and for all allowing me to bring in reinforcements for the next time he attacks me.
Do whatever you need to do to give the base 10 ECM.
The rest is up for debate.
Hello folks.
I am going to command a Fed fleet against a Klingon group. This battle is wildly non-historical in its makeup. Perhaps a little background on it would be in order.
I have been working on some rules to play SFB solitaire. The rules are quite a bit more advanced than the robot ship rules from the cadet handbook and the FC robot ship rule set. I have a pile of old SSDs (some from the Capt edition and others from the Commanders edtions but updated to Doomsday) that I have been using to playtest these rules. The Klingon and Federation ships to choose from have gotten a bit thin, so whats left is the forces in this post.
Federation: FFV escort carrier
FFE escort frigate
PV police carrier
FFR escort frigate
12xF20C
6xF18C
Klingon: 2x B10 separated boom section
F5L destroyer leader
F5D drone destroyer
The Klingons have 8 Disr, 23 Ph-1s, 5 Ph-2s, 2 Shuttles, and can launch 11 drones per turn. I am giving the B10 booms the D% in drones.
The Federation has only 1 Photon, 13 Ph-1s, 56 Ph-3s (counting the ftrs), 9 shuttles, and can launch 23 drones per turn.
I have not flown a fleet with virtually no heavy weapons before, so I am not sure this one could be won by the Feds.
The Federation commander asks, "Gentlemen, can we engage them with a reasonable chance of success?"
Floating map? If so, the answer is no. The Klinks will do a Kaufman retrograde and You'll never get a shot off that isn't bounced.
Well, B10 booms are definately not cruisers. They have the weapons but lack a lot of the other systems, and most importantly, are a little low on power. Should serve to slow them down or hurt their EW game.
The Feds are going to have to get close, and need to arrive with most of their stuff intact. I'd say ECM and EM are in order to hurt the Klingons' chances of an early disr hit, and head for the B-10 booms. Maybe an early drone launch just a few hexes in front of your ships just to complicate his defenses.
The Feds can cause a lot of havoc, but they are going to lose a lot. If the Klingons hunker down for a close range fight, massed overloads could quickly erase a frigate or two. I would not be happy if I was assigned to one of those frigates.
Thanks guys.
Mike Graton wrote:
Floating map? If so, the answer is no. The Klinks will do a Kaufman retrograde and You'll never get a shot off that isn't bounced.
Mike,
Since the battle begins at over 40 hexes range, it would seem that, if the Klingons are retrograding, the Fed force could, using sideslips and turns, could keep the range at 41+ hexes. This would mean the Klinks could only use phasers and the three or four points (the Feds are of course using EM; no generated EW in this battle) of damage would not be sufficient to prevent a stalemate. Unless I'm missing something, I don't see the point of the retrograde I guess.
The klingons have every reason to close to range-15 if possible, so a retrgrade is only viable if a stalemate favors the klinks. They have a decisive outer-range edge.
The Feds only get dangerous at point-blank range. Yes they can launch more drones, but half of that is going to be tied down by Klingon drone vs drone counter launches. Then we can talk about ADDs for making up the slack. While not fully functional cruisers, those B10 booms still pack 4 disruptors each.
Expect the Klinks to set a pace that they hope the Feds can't match and pop whatever is scrimping on EW to keep up. The two escorts can take the fight to the Klinks but this is a risky tactic. the klinks might slow down to knife fight and gut the escorts, but that might be the only hope the fighters have of getting a shot at the enemy.
Larry,
You did not specify what refits the B-Booms have. If they do not have any, that should help the Feds a little as the Booms will not have FH/L/R Disruptors and they will not have the LS/RS PH-1 upgrade. Also, If the Klingons have the Stasis refit on those booms then your fighters BETTER be alive and loaded by the time the Booms get close to your ships or the Feds lose, period.
Even without Klingon refits this is a hard fight for the Feds to win. What you really need is real fighters or at least ones that stand a chance of dealing more damage to the Klingons. Maybe a half squadron of those F-20's could be replaced with F-18's or F-16's and that would help even things out. Or maybe give the Fighters the Mega Packs and/or make them Remote Control.
Lastly, I do not have my SSD's in front of me but but if my memory services me correctly, I recall that the B-Booms only have 7 phasers (numbers 1 to 3 being PH-1's). Assuming that your Booms and the F-5's all have the K-refit, that only gives them 18 PH-1's and 6 PH-2's that I count. Again I am away from my SSD books but perhaps I have forgotten something?
Oh and by the way... for John and George and any of you who were giving me advice on my battle a while back where I was trying to defend my Base Station and a few ships against the Seltorian ships... I won. :-)
It came down to his CA getting to range 10 to my Stinger-1's and I gutted it. He could have then charged with his battle tug and dealt a serious blow to me which might have left him in a position to finish me off with siege tactics... but he turned tail and ran.
So anyway, I won and as I expected he returned on the next campaign turn with a full fleet of cruisers to attack me again. But not before I had upgraded my BS to a Starbase and brought in a few new ships to repel his attack. We have not finished the battle but it is looking bloody for both of our fleets but I do not see myself losing the Starbase. ;-)
Tactical excercise:
You are a Federation corvette captain (POL) in Y145.
You have come across a Klingon raider near the Neutral Zone. After sending off a message to the nearest base, you engage the raider.
Setup is The Duel, with a Fed POL (you) and a Klingon E4 as your opponent.
Neither side can use Commanders Options. Year is Y145. Both sides are WS-2.
Discuss.
Do everything you can to overload the photon and hope it hits. Stay out of Ph-2 range.