Deleted

By Robert F Estrada (Daredevil) on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 11:36 am: Edit

several people have written about the 12/20 ( launch on i1-i6? then trac shuttle on i10-i15) speed plot, trac shuttle after SP pops

why is this bad?


max speed 24 for 1st half of following turn...so what..

Sort of telegraphs your intentions as Kzin...again so what!

T1 vs FED
vs HYD
vs LYR/LDR
Vs SELT
Vs ISC
Vs Andro

Situational
vs Klingon
vs AUX
vs GBS/KZin
vs ATC/NEO

Hold/Evaluate
vs Gorn (although T1 may be needed)
vs Roms(TKE, TKR,TKE)
vs Orion (Espcially a Plasma package)



thoughts?


Making them WW is good isnt it?

Racer

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 12:40 pm: Edit

Carl wrote:
>>Cloaking is not something I, as Rommie, like to do. Even for the Orion it sucks, despite the edge in power. Therefore...>>

Sure. But you *can* cloak. Which is more of an issue for your opponent than you. You *know* if you are going to cloak or not. They don't. And a lot of times, the Romulan cloaking (even the KR) can really hose you if you are playing an aggressive game. So 'cause you *can* cloak, your opponent needs to play with this in mind.

>>• I would try use EPTs to force you into such a position that I do not need to cloak. >>

This is very common. If you can't cloak, your opponent (I'm assuming Kzinti here) can outrun the first EPT, bust through the second EPT and F torps and jump you. Which works great against the Gorn, for example. And works horribly against the Romulan. As you can eat EPT2, both F torps, lose a bunch of shields and take some internals, and just as you are about to kill the ship...oh, wait, he has cloaked. And now he gets to reload while taking little damage and any drones you had on the map are gone. Yaa.

>>• This because if I am forced to cloak I will take damage. In my experience I can expect one downed shield per turn cloaked.>>

That is a *vast* overstatement. Especially if you cloak when your opponent was expecting (hoping) for you to run. So you stop, dive, and your opponent who has a lot of energy in movement and probably not much in weapons runs you over, shoots up a shield with some P1s at R0, and then flies off to turn around and try again. I mean, yeah, if you start the turn stuck in the corner with limited plasma and an opponent 8 hexes away, ok, they are probably planning on you cloaking. But if you are in this position, either:

A) Your opponent already has a lot of damage, so the piddly R0 cloaked overrun isn't going to even things out.

or

B) You are losing anyway.

>>• Two drones per turn for 11 turns will not force me to cloak, not even if of you build a wave of four. >>

But 8 drones in a single turn might (i.e. 4 on the map +4 from a underloaded SP). Especially if you can follow up with 4 more.

>>• If using EPTs I will have little power for speeds. A typical plot would be Hk 4, Torps
10, Shuttles 2 which leaves 22 for other things.>>

Sure. Which is plenty of speed if your opponent is running away from EPTs.

>>• It is difficult for Rommies to arm epts and use speed to evade drones. He can use phasers but eventually that is something he need to put back in the caps.>>

Correct. So you eventually stop and weasel or stop and cloak or both. Hopefully at the point when your opponent finds it most inconvenient.

>>>• Arming torps, recharge batteries and phasers is not possible to do while cloaked. >>

If you are a TFH with limited internals, you can do ok--18 for cloak, 3 for ship, 4-5 into plasmas, 4-5 into phasers/batteries/shuttles gets you speed 8-9 or so. Which is generally enough.

>>• Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the decellaration limits he Rommie will be under if he cloaks. This make it tricky to uncloak again if the Klink/Kzin/Shark is close.>>

This is completely true. Except if it is a choice between:

A) Not cloaking and getting cornered/pasted when you have limited plasma.

and

B) Cloaking, rearming, and having a tricky time uncloaking when you are fully armed.

I'm not seeing how (A) is preferable to (B).

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 12:49 pm: Edit

Rob wrote:
>>Making them WW is good isnt it?>>

Sometimes? And not usually in the way that people think it is.

If I am a Kzinti ending T1 at range 8-9 with 10 drones on the map (not at all an unreasonable situation for the end of T1) and your opponent stops and weasels (either all out stop or speedy weasel), you are now stuck in a situation where you have, probably 18-20 power in movement (unless they were in a no-not-weasel) situation where they probably have less than 10. Which means plenty more energy for overloads and tractors. So if you go and jump on them (especially if they are stopped completely), you are fighting an uphill battle. Even as the Kzinti.

There are certainly ways to mitigate this--have your drones in 2 stacks 4 hexes apart to compromise his AFC activation, for example, but still, if, say, the Klingon or Shark stops and weasels T2, the Kzinti's best plan is usually to try for a R8 unreturned volley and then getting out to R9 before they can shoot back, and then come back later when they are moving speed 10-14, rather than just diving on them on T2. As you will probably just get yourself killed.

Again, much like the Romulan above, if you are in a situation where you *know* they are going to either weasel or die (i.e. they are stuck in a corner, you have 10 drones on the map they can't get away from by running, you are reasonably close to them), you can plot some sort of 9-4 speed plot and do just fine. But in those situations where they might weasel or they might run, and you plot for one and they do the other, you are usually hosed if you play into their plan.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 03:36 pm: Edit

Peter, let me put it this way; based on my epxeriences flying the TFH and TKR I would happily trade the cloak for a dual shuttlebay.
Exactly that good is the cloak.

By Gregg Dieckhaus (Gdieck) on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 04:00 pm: Edit

As a Lyran I would gladly trade my dual shuttle bay for a cloak!

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 05:58 pm: Edit

Carl wrote:
>>Peter, let me put it this way; based on my epxeriences flying the TFH and TKR I would happily trade the cloak for a dual shuttlebay.
Exactly that good is the cloak.>>

I mean, yeah, ok, if you dislike the cloak that much, there is little I can do to convince you otherwise. But if you dislike the cloak so much, why fly a Romulan?

Even the TKR with its horrible cloak cost has the *threat* of a cloak, which has a very significant impact on the game, even if it never turns the thing on. When fighting the Romulans, you need to assume that the cloak can and will turn on when it is least convenient for you, and while in your head, you are thinking "Man. Cloaks suck. I'm never using this thing.", your opponent is, at the same time, thinking "Man. If he turns on his cloak this upcoming turn, I'm completely screwed...", and plotting accordingly. Which might very well get him killed.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 09:19 pm: Edit

Well, I didn't say it would change your tactics. Running through EPTs to catch a Gorn is one thing, doing it vs a Rommie is another. Of course, the SP may help you do just that if it changes the meta game of board position to your advantage.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Sunday, June 20, 2010 - 04:45 am: Edit

that should have been "I didn't say it would NOT change your tactics."...

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, July 17, 2010 - 07:56 pm: Edit

Xander wrote (in the World League thread, about a Klingon vs Rom TFH game gone bad):
>>Really, I see two major mistakes I made.>>

The big mistake was cloaking on T2. You had 3 plasmas armed, and the Klingon was spending the turn running into the corner from the enveloper on the map. This is the point that, as a Plasma ship, you chase him into the corner at high speed to either anchor him or phaser/bolt a rear shield with an F torp and make him either eat or stop and weasel 50 points of plasma that he can't avoid. I mean, it doesn't always work like that, but that is the hope. And dropping speed to cloak in the middle of the map on T2 is giving up any advantage you gained by launching the enveloper on T1.

>>On turn 1, I had considered using reserve warp to increase my speed by 1, but I had calculated (incorrectly) that I would be able to stay out of range 8 with the plot I had. As it happens, I just barely fell into it by ONE impulse when he moved and I didn't. Obviously, the 'reserve warp to movement' on a previous impulse would have been a smarter use of power than the shield reinforcement it got used for, and likely saved that shield.>>

If you can avoid getting shot at R8, that is good, but it usually isn't that big of a deal if you do get shot at R8 on T1, especially if it is on your flank shields.

>>On turn 2, I was waffling in use of the cloak. I had expected him to phaser off some of the enveloper and eat it (just one enveloper, especially after the phaser damage a tournament D7 can put out, is little more than a nuisance), at which point I would chuck another plasma torp at him and cloak out.>>

The Klingon had plenty of room to run out the plasma, so he likely is going to do that (as it uses the fewest resources to get the best effect). If you are moving fast at this point, you get to chase him into the corner while he probably doesn't have disruptors armed (as he is going fast and has to recharge phasers used from the previous turn).

Big Plasma is all about getting a position advantage (i.e. the middle of the map as your opponent runs from an enveloper) and then turning that position advantage into a firepower advantage (chasing them into a corner where they can't avoid plasma without stopping and you shooting them on a flank shield). The Romulan does have a cloak which is a powerful tool, but it is best used to get you out of a bad situation you have gotten into (i.e. when *you* are caught in a corner with little plasma armed) rather than just cloaking 'cause it seems like it might possibly help out.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Saturday, July 17, 2010 - 09:52 pm: Edit

Actually, cloaking is the last thing you ever want to do. You fly the Roms only because of flavour (they have pointy ears!) and different ship design than the Gorn.

By Andrew Dederer (Drewster) on Saturday, July 17, 2010 - 11:43 pm: Edit

Robert:

12-20 T1 won Sandy Hemmingway a Gold Hat and several Kzintis multiple ace cards (Steve Hecker pretty much swore by it).

The only real change from the original is that most Kzintis don't build the 10-drone stack anymore (they manuver behind 6 and add rack drones as needed).

It works (ok not against plasma), it is a bit dull and it won't surprise anyone. Most really good players will have a "canned plot" ready for it (you know where the stack will be imp32).

I think the "brick" version Hemmingway used most of the time (14 reinforcement on the #6 shield) IS a bit obselete. Since they "know" where you'll be, your target may well try to close. Nothing ruins an iron-jaw like getting charged. 2+2 or 4 standards is much more likely nowadays.

In sum, solid tactic, but won't surprise anyone.

By Brook J. Villa (Brookie) on Sunday, July 18, 2010 - 09:57 am: Edit

My experience with the 12-24 speed plot that allows you to pick up your scatterpack shuttle is that it's a good tactic. If you don't mind being speed restricted for the first part of turn 2, then it's a good idea. Against plasma what could be wrong with having an extra wild weasle? Not much.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, July 18, 2010 - 11:27 am: Edit

Yeah, I never like the 12-24 plot. I don't like being restricted to 24 for that long (most of T1 and what is usually an important part of T2). If you are fighting plasma, you probably don't want to launch the SP on T1 anyway (as it is too easy for BP to make you turn off and let them kill/weasel the SP while you are fleeing plasma), and you can always go back and pick up the shuttle later if you launch it at some other point.

By Robert F Estrada (Daredevil) on Sunday, July 18, 2010 - 07:37 pm: Edit

Good input guys

i'm gathering that :
The 12/20 is good for the Kzin, but I need to be more flexible .


12/20 is not good for Klink:
Terrible for the klink IMO, as it sacrifices the klinks turnmode (B) advantage at key battle speeds.


Racer

By Brook J. Villa (Brookie) on Sunday, July 18, 2010 - 08:46 pm: Edit

Remember Robert, if the Klingon is using his scatter pack drones just for a deterrent and to soak up phasers, his ability to hit well with overloads at range 8 and then take off makes the 12/24 speed plot feasible. I guess I'm saying I'm not so sure that it's a bad option for the Klingon, given the consistency of his heavy weapons hitting. The ability to last a little bit longer with one more wild weasle is pretty big.

By Andrew Dederer (Drewster) on Sunday, July 18, 2010 - 09:49 pm: Edit

The big difference between Kzinti and Klingon is range control. The Klingon MUST control the range early (the Kzinti doesn't much care at what range damage swaps). Together with channel limits, the Kzinti closes behind his pack, the Klingon tends to lead it in THEN hide behind it.

The Kzinti with pack out can still dump rack drones whenever he wants to. The Klink generally can't without losing some.

The other thing is that the Kzinti can often afford to use the pack against plasma early (on the assumption that forcing a Rom into cloak is worth the pack).

I expect 15/21 splits from most Klinks (with a possible 26 or 28 very late). If they start at 21, they aren't packing OLs.

Overloaded disruptors are a big thing for the Klink, while the Kzin tends to be a bit meh about them. Both are good knife-fighters, but the Kzinti's drone load is much scarier (and he can fight out of 5 shields instead of 3 1/2).

The Klink is scary from ranges 3-8, but generally has to shoot first to take advantage. The Kzin is trying to force a knife-fight or an attrition battle, but the drones have to soak P-1s or other heavy stuff for this to work.

By Steven J. Hecker (Stevehecker) on Monday, July 19, 2010 - 09:38 am: Edit

I adopted the 12-20 from Sandy Hemmingway immediately after I read it. Though, I don't launch the rack drones immediately. I put the SP drones into 2 stacks of 3 and if my opponent looks like he is going to go through them, I launch 4 fast. If he isn't, I may or may not launch rack drones (depending on range, his heading & speed).

I do like it against Big BP as it stops the plamsa ballet. Usually forces the ROM to cloak, so you have to learn how to kill a cloaked ROM. And yes, I've used the 4th shuttle.

Same thing with a ship which WW. A Kzinti doesn't always have to overrun and win on that turn, but does need to do more damage than it recieves. Plus, you are now faster and you have to know how to use that in the following turns. (Big Ad -- they can no longer outrun further drone launching. So they are either going to use Phasers or more WWs.)

And those few times I have not launched the SP, it rarely gets used. The Kzinti likes to knife fight. Range 0-2 is not the best time to launch a SP. Rack drones are much more useful, so I'd rather expand the SP on turn 1 and save my rack drones for later.

And going slow, is fine with me as it lets those SP drones get out in front. I can use the extra power for weapons, shields, tractors, ext.

Yes, its a known tactic. Most folks have a plan to handle it. Heck, I've had folks play my first turn for me at times. But, just because its known, doesn't mean it won't work. The plasma ballet is a known tactic...

(Note: It did take me a while to figure out how to defeat a ship which WW, but that's a manadatory skill with the Kzinti as they will see WW even without a stack of 10.)

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Monday, July 19, 2010 - 11:19 am: Edit

If you forced the Rom to cloak, I assume that you flew through the T1 plasma? As a Romulan I'm fairly happy about that.

By Andrew Dederer (Drewster) on Monday, July 19, 2010 - 11:28 am: Edit

Not necessarily. He just has to keep within 35 of you. Eventually the drones get there and the Rom either shoots them (which empties the capacitor), or weasels/cloaks. Either way the ballet terminates (whether it's worth 10 drones to do that is another question).

By Steven J. Hecker (Stevehecker) on Monday, July 19, 2010 - 12:13 pm: Edit

Usually, I run out the first Enveloper. The 2nd S-torp (envoloped or not), I'll go in if you are cloaking out.

Yes, typically, the ROM is happy, but I will wreck / weaken one of your shields every turn you stay under. When you come out, we are generally even in shield damage, and we are now close (within 8) which I am happy with. I just have to avoid being tractored.

Drew -- Yes, it worth 10 drones. If I am going to hit the ROM with drones, its the fast ones. But I don't play to win games with drone damage.

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Monday, July 19, 2010 - 03:17 pm: Edit

If you can get the Rom to cloak with 10 drones, it's absolutely worth it. IMO, the Kzinti is a very good sub-hunter due in part to the number of fast drones available each turn.

That said, if you turn off to run out the turn 1 EPT you are unlikely to be forcing a cloak or a weasel. A good Rom will likely turn in to follow, and shoot/dodge your drones. You will then be pinned in the corner with the Rom somewhere near the center of the map. This is typical ballet. With good launch/maneuver of the drones, and/or bad shooting by the Rom you can probably force an early launch of the T2 EPT. That will allow you to chase on T3. At this point, both ships have used a bunch of resources. This is where I've typically seen the game really start between the Rom/Kzinti.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, July 19, 2010 - 03:25 pm: Edit

Yeah, for my money, launching 10 drones vs the Romulan on T1 rarely, if ever, pays off. If you turn and run from whatever the Romulan launches on T1 (enveloper, say), he can slip around/shoot down/tractor enough drones to be able to chase you into the corner and dump a second enveloper on you on T2 that you can't really do anything about other than stop and weasel or eat. And then turn and run across the map on T3, allowing the Romulan to weasel or cloak the SP drones eventually.

I mean, yeah, this is pretty much what Brian just said. But it is also what I see happen all the time in this fight. And you can get in the same situation without launching the SP on T1.

If you hold the SP on T1 (I'll often unload a couple drones from the SP on T1 to save for when I fix a busted drone rack and reload it; 4 drones in a SP is just as good at forcing a cloak or sucking up phasers on a Romulan as 6, especially the TFH with only 2 labs), you can rush to meet the Romulan in the middle of the map. He launches an enveloper and tries to avoid R8. You turn off and turn from the enveloper, he turns in and closes. End of the turn, you launch 4 drones in case he rushes you. Next turn, you run out the enveloper and come around. Romulan launches the second enveloper and turns off. You crash the enveloper and chase the Romulan across the map to try and corner him on T3. You can launch the SP when chasing the Rom after the second enveloper, and then the Rom probably cloaks on T3 as he is caught and has drones closing in. But maybe not. And better than launching the SP on T1 when he might be able to shoot down all the drones, or speedy weasel them in the middle of the map.

By Andrew Dederer (Drewster) on Monday, July 19, 2010 - 07:36 pm: Edit

If the Rom speedy-weasels, the ballet is done.

One thing about the turn 1 EPT, you generally don't have to "turn away", you can run it pretty far by simply moving off at an angle (and make the Rom decide how close he wants to follow).

But again to sum up, 12-20 works well because it keeps the Kzinti's assets together and tends to lead to an attrition battle (which with all those weapons and 110+ internals, he can usually win). The disadvantage is mostly that it is well-known and removes some of your opponent's uncertainty. It's like a solid chess opening, known, strong and analized to death. The only real question it gives your oppenent is where the power is (disr, shield, tractor or some combination), but that's standard for any Dis Drone ship opening.

Peter uses a more dynamic opening (from what I've seen). He typically deploys the shuttle but runs far to the right of it before hooking out of his near-right corner (and with a faster plot). Here he trades a shuttle he may never recover and less discretionary power for a more dynamic situation. I would suspect that one bonus for him is that his rack drones and ship are likely to come from a different "threat vector" than the pack drones. It may be possible to get around the pack, but it requires on-the-fly calculation.

One thing to remember, the Kzin has a good steady punch, but firepower-wise, it is really weak outside range 2. The Kzin is one of the few ships that can't count on breaking a shield at range 4. The drones don't need to hit, but they either must absorb firepower, or slow the target down, or better both.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Monday, July 19, 2010 - 09:16 pm: Edit

it is WHAT to death?