Archive through May 06, 2010
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: General Tactics Discussion:
Lyran Tactics:
Archive through May 06, 2010
I sometimes play the enemy ship and the new player's "First officer" at the same time. Both trying to kill him and handing him tactical options and pointing out potential pitfalls. SFB is big and complex and it's good to have someone in your corner till you get the hang of the core mechanics.
New players seem to like hearing the words "Now I'm going to help you beat me."
Being both enemy and ally at once can be hard to do if you're really competetive, because the part of you playing the enemy can't have access to what you know as the new player's advisor.
This works easiest with a monster that runs by automatic rules. Then you can work together with the new player to kill the monster without divided loyalties. I've XOed new players fighting the Planet Crusher before.
With new players I tend to start with Feds, however when using another race like the Lyrans a BPV advantage or a drone limit no scatter packs or 2 pol vs the CA so that he can have a fair chance of winning
If the new player balks at uneven battles (some people I've met have too much pride), try using several smaller ships against one large one (excepting PFs, of course). 3 POLs vs a D7 is a fight the D7 will have an advantage in, but appears to be an even battle to a new player. Plus, even if they lose they'll probably kill something, which keeps them eager for the next fight.
I generally prefer NOT the Fed. The Fed have the advantage that they're reasonably straight forward and very familiar. They have the downside, however that they're very subject to the good or bad roll of the dice. I've had the best success with the Klinks with a slight BPV edge.
Clarification.. He's not at all new to wargaming (we've played historical games regularly once a week for 9 years now), and we've played quite a few games of SFB in the past 6 months so he has mechanics down.
He's even won 1/4 - 1/3 of the games we've played at even BPV when he played Klingons. It's tactics when we switch to new ships that he still needs help with. He played Klingon for the first half dozen or so games, then we played a couple games of a small scenario I put together (Lyran vs Hydran). We've done "one big ship - him" vs "two small ships - me".
I do note that I generally use John Trauger's "First Officer" method a lot. If I see a couple of potential options for him, I point them out. I usually discuss the situation at the end of each turn, or at complicated moments. And then we have a "What could you have done differently?" chat at the end, usually followed by more detailed thoughts in an e-mail the next day.
So in general, this isn't at all a request for help on HOW to teach a new player (I've done a lot of that over the past few years). It's also not a concern that he gets frustrated to the point of "quitting". He continually says he had fun and that he's in it for the long haul.
Specifically it's, to reiterate:
Is the Lyran CA vs Kzinti BC a balanced fight in most players' opinions?
If not, is there a better balanced fight with these two empires? What I _don't_ want is for us to assume a fight is balanced when it's not, as that will give the wrong idea to him as to how well he's doing. I _may_ just give him the NCA which BPV wise would favor the Lyran slightly but not by 15-20%.
If it is, what general Lyran tactics are recommended...
Tourney data suggests the Kzin is even, perhaps slightly advantaged over the Lyran (40 wins, 36 losses). That's with a substantially stronger Lyran than the CA (more power, better phasers, better shields) against a weaker Kzin (thirty spaces of special drones removed, only three type-IV, only eight fast drones). So there is room to shift the balance a bit for a more even fight - don't worry about BPV once you've found a matchup that works for you. You could try weakening the Kzin (a CS with slow drones is much weaker compared to the BC than the BPV suggests) or improving the Lyran.
Andrew, that's helpful.
Yup. I was debating dropping to a CS. An additional data point, we play with Speed 20 drones.
Also, doesn't the Tournament Kzin have double drone control? (The Historical BC doesn't). This may not be much of an issue.. I find it odd that the CC is only 4 points higher than the BC after the Y175 refit. So the BPV difference for double drone control may not be that much.
However, one point to note which I should have..
We play with a float around a fixed point map, not a fixed or floating map. In other words, we place a counter at the center, and the map can float as long as that counter stays on the map.
The reason this came to mind, is that this "ups" the Lyran's chances and decreases the Kzinti's compared to a pure fixed map. Perhaps not quite to the same degree that the Lyran/Kzinti ships are improved/disadvantaged in a Tourney.
Most every time, a seeker race will become less effective the more room it's prey has to run.
Are you certain that a BC does not have double drone control? I thought it did.
John,
I was surprised too, but the SSD doesn't say it has double drone control, and I checked the Basic Set rulebook too which, if I remember (and if I didn't completely miss it) doesn't have that qualifier (the CC has it in both places). Will triple check tonight.
I think there are a lot more Kzinti ships with single drone control than commonly believed.
Yeah actually that is one of the KZI downfalls. Many of the more commom ships do not have double drone control.
Ie the DN, CC, and many of the scouts have double. Those missing are the BC, CD, and many of the "cruiser" type hulls. Although nearly all KZI ships have high launch rates a close look has to be kept on control channels. Remember ATG is your friend!
And of course, Kzinti can have more spaces of ATG (and other drones) than other races, so that helps them a fair bit.
Anyhow (to keep this on topic.. Lyran as opposed to Kzinti), I've discussed all this with my friend, and it looks like he wants to stick with the Lyran CA. I've suggested that he definitely wants to fire disruptors on Turn 1, and hopefully aim to get a 5-8 range Overload shot early on Turn 2 and use the UIM. This is based on what I did in the previous 2 games, and while I could change my plan to account for knowing what I told him, I won't. It won't necessarily be easy, and I won't pull punches, but it seems to me that that's a decent opening plan for the Lyran in this fight. Beyond that... well, depends on where my drones and ship are.
I'll also point out that he probably doesn't want to turn away from the drones when I'm still coming at him, otherwise it's too easy for me to get on his tail. I've given him some mid turn speed change advice, so the hope is he can speed up to only deal with some of the drones at once while still executing a more normal battle pass where our positions should be relatively neutral.
The ESG really is a power drain if you try to go for the glory of two 5-power ESG fields, but that is not always necessary or desired. Sometimes it is hard to get the good ESG ram and recognizes when that is unlikely and not wasting power by charging up the ESG is a crucial thing to learn.
It seems to me (reading the aces reports here) that the threat of the ESG is often the important thing.
You announce the ESG and influence the other side. Then cancel if they don't obligingly come to be rammed.
And if they do come in to be rammed, watch out! They're planning something!
I remember the first two times I played the Kzinti vs Lyran fight (tourney cruisers I believe). I was good with Kzinti but had never fought against Lyrans, so a member of our group decided to teach me. Both times I flew straight in through his ESG ram. The details are fuzzy but either the timing was such that we closed by two hexes so the ESGs hit different shields from the one he could fire on, or I managed to avoid his weapons arcs, or something but all I remember is both times taking his ship out an impulse or two later with three heavy drones and the Kzinti phaser hose.
He kept saying: "You were supposed to avoid the ram and run away!" My response was: "Wanted to see how bad it would hurt the first time. It didn't, so now I don't fear them."
Seems to me, the ESG is certainly a powerful weapon, but really hard to use properly. I think most people (or at least inexperienced people 
) see it as the major weapon on the ship and plan their tactics around it. To me it feels like drones, stingers, etc on other ships.. as a tertiary system which can influence your opponent and even win you the game if things break right. Another way of putting it is, you have to be more opportunistic with its use than proactive in most cases.
Given the float around a fixed point, he's got some options.
He can play the saber-dancing game, and that should eventually go the KZI way based off of power curve.
On a semi-floating map, there's a lot of run-room however. He may want to try going for the Hack and Slash (drop the shield in #1.32 with the P3s from R1-2 and overload distruptors through it on #2.1) or Kzinti Anchor, both of which would put him as not arming disruptors T1.
Michael,
I'm actually asking for Lyran tactics in the fight for my friend. ;) I'm the Kzinti.
Oh yeah ... sorry ... why would anyone want to be the lousy Lynx again? Okay, now that the kzinti part of my soul is satiated, here's a few thoughts.
As has been said, the ESG is over-hyped, but very useful. At R1, it's a great way to mitigate a large drone-wave from the Kzinti. The trick is to get the Big Kat to mass launch enough drones to make it worth-while. The 4 from the racks are hardly worth the energy cost to recharge it.
With the semi-floating board, I'd keep speed as a priority, then Disruptors (non-over), phasers and the ESG.
The weekness of the BC is that in direct fire, it's significantly underpowered compared to the competition outside of R2-3 (P3 range). If you can keep out of the Kzinti's claws you've got better distance armament with better arcs the the Kzinti. It'll be a war of attrition, but fly hot (spd 21+ and as fast the Kzinti), trickle-load the ESG for when the drones do eventually close.
Thing is, I'm not sure the Lyran CA's arcs are really better than the Kzinti. Not having the ships in front of me, if I remember, the arcs are:
Kzinti:
4 disruptors (2 x FA/L, 2 x FA/R)
Drawing a complete blank on the phaser 1's but it may just be 4 (1 x FA/l, 1 x FA/R, 2 x 360)
Lyran:
4 disruptors (4 x FA)
I think it may have 6 phaser 1's but with 2 at LS/RS arcs and the rest in FA/L, FA/R (or just FA).
The only actual disadvantage I can find in the Kzinti is that it has center warp, and not much in the way of forward hull. That combination means that the Lyran can get to significant power hits more quickly given the same internals. There's also a non-redundant scanner, but that requires luck (and you'd better believe I'll have a guard on the scanner track against hit and run raids).
The one obvious advantage the Lyran has is the UIM refit (I do think I'll make sure he takes at least 1 backup UIM module for the next battle).
Based on that, I think the Lyran has to do as much damage as possible on the opening battle pass without, as Michael puts it, falling into the Kzinti's claws. I'd even think about hit and run raids on the forward hull if the opportunity presents itself. Use the ESGs and tractor beams to handle drones, heck, even take a hit from a Type I rather than use up Ph-1's on it if you can take it on a shield that likely won't be exposed to fire.
So as the Lyran, I would probably try to get a Range 9-15 shot with standard disruptors on Turn 1, then a 4-8 range shot with UIM overloaded disruptors and phasers on Turn 2, using ESGs, T-bombs, tractors, phaser 3's and even shields to handle the drones. The whole goal in the first pass should be to "get to the power" and then the ships might be more even for the rest of the game.
The above would require good timing, and better nerves but would be the plan I'd try if I were the Lyran.
The Lyran CA is overpriced. Andrew Harding's point about tourney ships is spot on - the Kzinti TC (which I would say is roughly comparable to the BC) is slightly better than the Lyran TC (which is markedly superior to the CA). (Note: The Kzinti tourney ship is based on the CC, which DOES have double drone control. The TCC gives up special drones, reloads and the ability to use more than one scatterpack, in exchange for 2 power and double drone control.)
In general, ESGs are overpriced, BPV-wise. If you want a good matchup, upgrade his Lyran to a CC, or use the tourney cruisers. Or try a CW/CM matchup, giving both ships all refits (except mech links).
Well, the ESG is pretty impressive defending against drones. It takes one point of power to knock down each standard type-1 drone with a range 0 ESG. Sure, it's not as effective as a Phaser-G, but its not nothing.
And ESGs never overkill drones, keeping the remaining potential damage to deal with other drones in the 32 impulse active period.
NCAs and medium speed drones is what i would pick, if it were me. the lyran has a lot of resources, and is just generally a cool ship to fly, imo.
I would really disagree with using ESGs to defend against drones. I'd rather use speed and ph-3s, which I believe the Lyran CA has a bunch of. ESGs are too power hungry to be used as anything other than a last ditch defence, in my opinion.
Unless, of course, the Kzinti has discharged his weapons for the turn and is trying to hide behind drones.
The Lyran CA is a good match vs the Kzinti BC...as long as the BC has slow/moderate drones. You could use the Kzinti CS with fast drones...
If you give the Kzin BC medium (speed-20) drones, you are probably going to have to give the Lyran some refits to compensate.