| By Andrew Dederer (Drewster) on Monday, July 19, 2010 - 10:20 pm: Edit |
oops, wasn't checking my typing..
Analyzed, heck only one letter off, never saw that before.
| By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, July 20, 2010 - 09:39 am: Edit |
Andrew wrote:
>>If the Rom speedy-weasels, the ballet is done.>>
I don't know that the Romulan, in this fight, needs to textboook Plasma Ballet--if the Kzinti puts 10 drones on the map on T1 and ends T1 moving away from an enveloper, the Romulan can easily get away with a 4-14 weasel of the 10 drones and still pursue the Kzinti--with 70 plasma on board and all the drones on the map gone, the Kzinti is going to be hard pressed to rush the Romulan at that point. And if the Rom just follows and launches an enveloper later, T3, it can run away just fine, with speed 14 for a few impulses followed by 28 max for the rest of the turn. I mean, yeah, maybe not the most optimal plan, but can work just as well. And I've done it in the Gorn vs the Kzinti, and it works fine.
>>Peter uses a more dynamic opening (from what I've seen). He typically deploys the shuttle but runs far to the right of it before hooking out of his near-right corner (and with a faster plot).>>
Sure, but not against a Romulan :-)
Against a Romulan, I'm generally just going to charge the middle of the map to force an earlier plasma launch. Hold the SP till later in the game.
| By Steven J. Hecker (Stevehecker) on Wednesday, July 21, 2010 - 11:56 am: Edit |
Peter --
Against the Rom, I can see where a turn 2 launch would be better than a turn 1 launch IF you plan on running out the first Enveloper and crashing through the second.
For my turn 1 SP launch, I am pretty sure after I picked up the Shuttle, I would turn away (Slips most likely) from the ROM if he is going for the middle. Thus if he wants the middle, he meets my drones (6 IM, 4 fast) first before he reaches the Plasma Launch point.
If he isn't running towards the middle, then I don't launch rack drones. And I probably run out the evenloper some, but will crash it at some point once I have determined how he is dealing with the SP drones.
But, I'm intrigued by your plot and will have to give it a try to see if I like it better.
TKE is different as is the Gorn. I actually fear these two more. Generally because no one in our group played them and I didn't have enough experience. Fortuantely, they aren't too popular.
| By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, July 21, 2010 - 12:20 pm: Edit |
Yeah, the TKE is actually a huge pain for the Kzinti, as the cloak cost is low. So it can cloak and sub-hunting it is rough as it can actually move while cloaked.
The Gorn, not being able to cloak, is a lot easier to deal with. Even without launching the SP early, if it comes in for the anchor, you can make it deal with 8 drones on T2 which takes away most of his phaser threat, and if he launches an enveloper and turns off, you can run out the enveloper, come back around, chase him into a corner, launch the SP on the way in, and mug him.
| By Steven J. Hecker (Stevehecker) on Wednesday, July 21, 2010 - 12:44 pm: Edit |
And since sub-hunting is tough, you can't crash through an enveloped "R", even a severally weakened one as its a long, long game.
Sounds like you use the same plot for the Gorn as you do the ROM. As a Gorn player, you fear the Kzinti?
| By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, July 21, 2010 - 02:55 pm: Edit |
Steven wrote:
>>And since sub-hunting is tough, you can't crash through an enveloped "R", even a severally weakened one as its a long, long game.>>
Yeah, it is a drag. It is kind of a harder game for the Kzinti than certainly the TKR, and possibly harder than the TFH, specifically due to the cloak cost (and the t-bomb doesn't hurt either). Although at Origins one year, I lost to Bill 'cause he launched an R and an F torp at me, I turned off, he kept closing, got to R5, bolted me with an R and an F and phasers, hit with the R, did like 20 internals, turned and ran, eventually cloaking in the corner when I caught up to him on T3. Going into the sub hunt behind 20 internals is bad.
>>Sounds like you use the same plot for the Gorn as you do the ROM. As a Gorn player, you fear the Kzinti?>>
Well, as the Kzinti vs any big plasma, I'm going to go fast with standard disruptors armed and try to force an early plasma launch as the BP ship tries to avoid R8 (at the point when they need to make that decision, they generally don't know if you can have 4xOL yet). If they launch an enveloper, I'll shoot and turn off, using late turn drones to dissuade a T2 anchor attempt, and if they launch another enveloper, I'll crash it at 11 hexes and corner them on T3. It's when they don't launch a second enveloper that it becomes a game :-)
As the Gorn, I'm not super concerned by the Kzinti--it is probably an even fight, but the trick is to not try to launch a second enveloper. A first enveloper is often a good idea. But you really want 70 regular plasma on board for T2 so you can go fast (to get around drones) and then dump 50-70 plasma on them in the corner that they can't avoid other than by stopping, which then saves you from all the drone build up on the map.
| By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Thursday, July 22, 2010 - 11:28 am: Edit |
When I do play plasma ships, I'm not a fan of launching envelopers against disruptor ships in the early game at all. Later in the game is a different story.
| By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, July 22, 2010 - 03:38 pm: Edit |
The problem with launching standards against disruptor/drone ships is that they can call your bluff too easily--run the plasma to 11 hexes, shoot one of them with a pile of P3s, and take it on a flank shield. If only one (or none) are real, they lose part of a shield and are still coming to mug you. If both are real, they take a few insignificant internals, and are now *really* coming to mug you.
The enveloper, at least, is going to do significant damage in the long run, doesn't lose much from P3s, mostly ignores any reinforcement, and often is something that folks don't just want to run into.
| By Brook J. Villa (Brookie) on Friday, July 23, 2010 - 12:39 pm: Edit |
I agree with Marcus. I'm not a big fan of ept's early in the game either. Sometimes people will just run through them to get closer. I know I do sometimes. The best time to run through them is in the beginning when your shields are full strength anyways. Also, when you load standards the extra 6 points of power to play with for speed, small brick, trac, etc. is helpful.
Peter said,
"If both are real, they take a few insignificant internals, and are now *really* coming to mug you."
Sometimes, even a small volley can hurt. Also, when a player runs out your plasmas to range 11, it might take them more than a turn to corner you, and by that time you have enough plasma to make it a fight.
By no means is any plan fullproof, but I think it depends on the situation.
| By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Friday, August 20, 2010 - 07:54 pm: Edit |
Fishing for advice on the RFH.
Having played it in 4 tourney matches to date, with a 1:3 win:loss ratio, I believe I'm starting to get a decent feel for it.
Of the 3 matches I lost, 2 of them I could point to a handful of blunders that obviously cost me the match. As in, I may or may not have won the match if I hadn't made the mistakes, but I did, and that DID cost me the match. And they were really both stupid mistakes that come from not being familiar with the ship (to wit: the Stinger-destroying phaser capability of the ship is basically the same...just a single phaser-1 short...directly aft as directly forward, so no need to HET to FACE the fighters you want to kill; the turn mode of 'C' is an ugly thing, pay attention to the speeds TO THE NUMBER you turn at).
The PROBLEM, though - what I'm looking for advice on, is the match with the KLI. I was totally PWNED. And not even a little bit, he had ultimately completely gutted me (I think I stuck it out to actual-ship-explosion) without me even getting 2 of his shields hardly more than 50% down.
The difficulty is really threefold:
| By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Friday, August 20, 2010 - 10:18 pm: Edit |
Xander, my honest advice: Firehawk cloak should be a last resort vs most opponents. For practice, try playing as if your ship does not have a cloaking device (or, for practice, try playing a Gorn). The Firehawk is one of the most powerful ships in the game, even *without* the cloaking device.
If you are serious about getting more practice in this matchup, feel free to email me. Happy to discuss strategy via email, also happy to play some practice games with you (if you want to go this route, I recommend getting experience playing both sides - the plasma ship as well as the disruptor ship).
Ken
P.S. KLI OLs only hit on 1-4 vs a cloaked vessel. UIM requires lock on to work.
| By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Friday, August 20, 2010 - 11:13 pm: Edit |
OK, since I am drunk and not quite ready for bed yet, I will comment further on a topic I've thought about often and have never posted about.
With very few exceptions, all experienced SFB tournament players I have ever known, active or inactive, have been extremely forthcoming with tactical advice. Yes they will all try to blow your starship into bits during combat, but if you ask them "why did you do ABC?", or "what's your general turn 2 speed plot vs the Klingon?" or "what position are you trying to achieve by the end of turn 1?", they will generally be very happy to tell you.
From my own personal experience, I remember specific past instances asking the following players for help, which was invaluable to me:
- Asking Von_Nasty about LYR vs WAX, several long emails.
- Asking Nightshade about LDR vs ZIN.
- Asking The_Rock about ATC tactics (this was at Origins, Paul and I were moving the web counters around the map discussing various tactics, and suddenly the Light Came On, so to speak).
- Asking Sir_Cruiser about ZIN vs ISC tactics, bouncing ideas off of Norm.
Moral of story: feel free to ask the more experienced players for tactical advice! Don't be shy! The only way you will get an answer to a tactical question is to ask the question, and the only way to get experience in a matchup is to ask for a game. Ask Ask Ask. Practice Practice Practice. Furthermore, whenever possible practice against players better than you instead of worse than you, that's the only way you will get better (I see players, even experienced players, who don't want to play the Aces - I don't get it. I would prefer to play against Tom and Paul all the time, even if I lost every single game.).
The SFB community: all in all, a pretty friendly group of guys. Don't be afraid of asking for advice!!
| By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Friday, August 20, 2010 - 11:34 pm: Edit |
Quote:UIM requires lock on to work
Quote:or, for practice, try playing a Gorn.
...
The Firehawk is one of the most powerful ships in the game, even *without* the cloaking device.
| By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Friday, August 20, 2010 - 11:44 pm: Edit |
Cloak aside:
- TFH has TM C compared to Gorn TM D (yes this is a big deal).
- FH plasma arcs ideal for plasma ballet (if that's the type of game you want to play).
- TFH is the only plasma ship that can anchor for 80 off the oblique (I play an aggressive TFH, so this is really important to me).
My advice remains the same: for practice, try pretending that you do not have a cloaking device (or better yet, me=TFH, you=KLI, let's play some practice games).
| By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 05:32 am: Edit |
Actually, Xander, it is important to realise that the Cloak is no offset for the lack of phasers, labs etc. You do not win by using the cloak. It is the power of the plasma weapons that simply make the question of dual bays etc. irrelevant.
Replace the heavy weaponry of any Tourney ship for plasma and you will get a ship that you must, as opponent, take seriously.
| By Stephen McCann (Moose) on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 07:09 am: Edit |
I completely disagree with you Carl. Even when you do not use the cloak it is something that must be accounted for by your opponent in every turns planning. The fact that the TFH might cloak is more valuable than I think you give it credit for.
| By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 09:29 am: Edit |
yeah, but how do you use that against your opponent?
To him it is an extra factor when trying to figure out what you are going to do, but he won't tell you what conclusions he reach. Besides, no matter if your opponent guess wrong about your actions, cloaking hand him a big advantage. You slow down, and can't fire at him. This mean he can get close to you and make uncloaking unpleasant.
I have this year used the cloak to get rid of SP drones (when flying Orion), and always have I regreted it.
It is usefull for the Robo-EPT tactic, but only so long the opponent runs from your torps. (You need the manueuverability and fire arcs of the TKR for this)
| By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 12:53 pm: Edit |
Quote:It is the power of the plasma weapons that simply make the question of dual bays etc. irrelevant.
Quote:FH plasma arcs ideal for plasma ballet
| By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 01:18 pm: Edit |
And, maybe, for point of comparison, the TKR would have been a better argument point for the RFH than the Gorn.
In comparing THESE two (RFH vs TKR) - which both have cloak and the same heavy weapons:
- Same heavy phasers, but the TKR has 2 more phaser-3s
- Same heavy weapons, but the TKR has better arcs (allowing for more off-the-front-line shots)
- The TKR has a better turn mode ('B' vs 'C')
- The TKR has twice as much lab (4 vs 2)
- The TKR has nearly twice as many transporters (5 vs 3)
And for all that, the only thing the RFH has over the TKR is that the cloak is 2 power less costly to use.
Obviously, the cloak is considered to be a BIG PART OF THE BALANCE of the ship, having it be just 2 power less costly to operate apparently being worth losing 2xPh-3, 2xLab, 3xTran, a turn mode of 'B' to 'C', etc. But, again, it's darn near useless against a KLI!
| By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 04:00 pm: Edit |
Many, perhaps most expert players prefer the TFH plasma arcs to the TKR.
| By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 09:36 pm: Edit |
Xander: Most of the tactics in SFB rely on creating mismatches with your opponent. This also includes complicating their planning.
The cloaking device is not an easy device to use; in about 80% of the cases I've seen it used online, the person would've been better off with 18 more points of speed.
In the remaining 20% of the cases, it resulted in the opponent having to 'go outside' their comfort zone to play it out.
For example, you got pinged by a Klingon using disruptors while you were under cloak. You didn't know that the UIM requires a lockon to function.
Let's look at the numbers for cloak versus not cloaked:
4 OL disruptors cost him 16 power. You're going to be going slower - and you probably cloaked while within a range of 8.
There's your first mistake. He knew he could get a 'free' disruptor shot at you, albeit for about half the normal damage after cloak charts.
When he fired at range 0, did you remember he had to take feedback damage?
My three rules of cloaks:
1) Don't cloak unless you're at range 12 or so.
2) When under cloak, you are playing for position. You are not 'hunkering down and taking it' - he must ALWAYS be aware that you might surface and threaten him with something.
3) Use speed changes to avoid range 0 overruns. It takes some finesse and studying the impulse chart, but it's doable and quite frustrating to someone who's cloak-hunting.
Carl: Here's how I use the cloak in the Orion, for two packages.
Package A: ffgff.
Turn 1, I cloak and fly towards the middle of the map. I don't arm fusions. My aim is to be behind my opponent at a range of about 8, with the angles set up for a closing approach.
Turn 2, I look at the situaiton, and will, about half the time, stay cloaked until I see the situation mentioned above.
Turn N, I uncloak, double both warp, put 12 into tractor, the rest into general reinforcement, and try to end the turn at range 1. I launch a suicide shuttle on impulse 32, and will usually fire phasers on that impulse.
Turn N+1. Maintain tractor over the turn break. Plot speed 0. Suicide overload as many fusion beams as is practical.
Tractor rotate ship into suicide shuttle, fire three suicide overloaded fusion beams at range 0. Go have a beer.
Package B: HgHBB
Turn 1: Double left, 3 for HK, 18 for cloak, 12 for movement (doing a 12-19 split), 6 to roll both hellbores. 3 for special shuttles. My aim is to play the position battle for a shot on turn 2 after uncloaking.
This opening works decently well against someone who does robo-EPTs. I've never quite made it work rolling 1 hellbore and powering the other off of reserve power on impulse 28 (so that it's ready to fire when I surface).
| By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Sunday, August 22, 2010 - 03:29 pm: Edit |
Ken, tnx, I was going to ask you on the tactic for the fusion boat. I'll try it someday in NK to see what people was up to in the past
| By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, August 22, 2010 - 05:27 pm: Edit |
Xander wrote:
>>Ah, even comparing these two ships, though, the Gorn has:
- Same heavy weapon suite, but with somewhat better arcs
- Same warp engines (same power overall, really)
- Gorn has twice as much lab (4 vs 2)
- Twice as many shuttle bays (2 vs 1)
- Nearly twice as many heavy phasers (8 vs 5)
Obviously, to offset ALL those advantages, the cloak must be considered to be a pretty big part of the RFH's "balance".>>
And yet, even with all of this, the RFH is considered a very strong, if not top 5 contender, where the Gorn is pretty solidly ranked in the middle of the pack.
The TFH is one of the best ships in the game. It has plasma, which is strong; it has a good turn mode and good weapon arcs; it has a useable cloaking device.
I suspect that the issue here is not that the TFH is giving your trouble. I suspect it is just plasma in general that is giving you trouble. Which has a very steep learning curve, so it is understandable (it took me a couple years to actually figure out how to play plasma so that I could actually start winning regularly in the Gorn). What the TFH has going for it, more than anything else, is that plasma is a strong system, and if you can get good mileage out of the plasma, the TFH *also* has the cloak as a back up to get its old ladies car out of a bad area.
I fly the Gorn all the time. And do pretty well. But regularly end up in situations where I say to myself "Huh. If I had a cloak right now, I'd be gold!", usually involving being chased into a corner when I don't have a bunch of plasma armed, and my opponent has a bunch of drones on the map.
That, and the cloaking device has a significant impact on the game, even if it never gets turned on. That the TFH *has* a cloaking device that it could use, even if it doesn't, means that your opponent can't put a lot of drones on the map (as you might cloak) and can't just bull through a bunch of plasma to corner you (as you might cloak) and so on.
| By Jonathan Biggar (Jonb) on Sunday, August 22, 2010 - 05:50 pm: Edit |
Right. Good Kzin captains don't put 12 drones on the map all at once against a TFH because being able to cloak out 1/3 of the Kzin's drones in one go is a good strategy for the Romulan. So even though the TFH doesn't have as good a defensive phaser suite as the TKR or Gorn, it doesn't need it to be as good.
| By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Sunday, August 22, 2010 - 10:15 pm: Edit |
Quote:Right. Good Kzin captains don't put 12 drones on the map all at once against a TFH because being able to cloak out 1/3 of the Kzin's drones in one go is a good strategy for the Romulan
Quote:When under cloak, you are playing for position
Quote:And yet, even with all of this, the RFH is considered a very strong, if not top 5 contender, where the Gorn is pretty solidly ranked in the middle of the pack
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