Archive through December 20, 2002
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board:
The "X" Files:
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Major X2 tech changes...:
Archive through December 20, 2002
One of the big complaints about X-ships is that much racial flavor is lost and everyone starts looking the same. In Commander's X2 this gets worse where every P-1 can fire as a P-G.
X-ships need to be fun moe than realistic which in turn requires strengths *and* weaknesses.
Loren is right. the question of defense and the ability to take damage and still fight must be addressed, but it can't be addressed in a way that further compromises the uniqueness of each race. Even with the General War, the issue of defense was big and several answers were fielded. The ADD, G-rack, P-G, ESG, Plasma-D all sought to deal with defense. Some of these systems existed before GW, some have made it into X1, some didn't. We need a palette of denfense system for races to work with, as well as improved ability for the hulls to absorb damage.
What about bringing back the XE2.43 rules for rapid-pulse phasers, this time *without* the benefits of Aegis? Ph-G mounts would be able to get 6 shots off instead of 4, Ph-1 and -2 mounts would be able to get 3 Ph-3 firings, Ph-4 would be able to get 6 as well. Additional energy would be limited to 50% of what the phaser mount could handle.
This would have the effect of increasing point defense, and not completely violating the racial flavour of the Hydrans while doing so, since they will maintain their technological lead in the field *and* te other races will not be able to come close to the weapon that started it all - the Ph-G.
Quote:Answer carefully because if we do 2X we will never be able to slot X1+ into the timeline.
Not entirely true...if we put 2X far enough in the future to allow for a "bear market" period ( as opposed to a bull market period ) then we can have X1B and even X1+ in those years.
If X1 lasts for 25 years, why not have the last ten of those being the "hey let's only have some X tech on these ships" years.
I thought of another way we could have ships moving at faster than 31.
We just call it TRANS-WARP or if parramount won't let us...PAN-WARP and allow the ships to travel almost as fast as the Sabotted Plasma.
But ships are already travelling slower than what the show indicates they can. In Captain's Log 16, there is a chart showing how to convert game speed to warp speed. Speed 32 is a surprisingly modest warp 3.2, nowhere near the speed routinely used in the old series...let alone the new ones. So, I don't have any objection to there being speed 48 drones or plasmas, or 2X ships being faster, to boot. Shouldn't a hallmark of a new generation of ships be that they are faster? Not speed 48, or maybe not even 40, but I can see having a speed 36 2X ship.
The problem with faster than speed 32 speeds is that it breaks the games laws of physics. All ships can move faster than speed 32. Even most of the sub-light ships. It's just that during combat they use tactical warp who's maximum speed translates to 31.
In a conversation between myself, SVC and SPP via e-mail SVC might well have been pounding his fist on the table if it were a face to face conversation. I can tell you that it is highly unlikely that he will agree to allow units other than plasma to move faster than 32 (unless you take the step to direct fire). And no he is not angry with me. It ended with him making his point clear. I had a scenario idea that required a non-played tactic for the set up. It was interesting but would have opened a wound in the game. Speed 32 is at the core of the game. Every thing is based on it and if you change it even a little it will send ripples through out the game system. The rule would have to address every other rule in the game. The rule for speed 36 ships would likely be the largest singe rule so far. Start a A0.0 and account for everything to Z.
I see plasmas as not sharing the same volnerabilities and metal based units. It has been established that a single phaser shot would wreak a DN moving at stratigic speeds. Note the most recent CL story about the Hood waiting until the last moment to drop to tactical. By what has been established a drone moving at speeds greater than 32 should be destroyed by one point of damage from any source. That mean you super fast drones could be pegged off at R30 or what ever.
Drones have long endurence and plasmas don't. A speed 32 drone is plenty effective even if it doesn't hit. It is far easier to out run a plasma than a drone.
I think that X2 drone should have ATG normally. That's a big thing. Even though ship could only control their sensor rating, any number of drones could be on the board. That is scarry. If you really want them scarry give them an extra turn of endurence. Also, I see no problem with a few new drone modules. That would seem a natural evolution.
BTW: Thanks John T.
Repost from another X2 topic.
I'll support MJCs post with this. The Fed CA vs.the D7.
Radically different hulls and balanced.
However, there is likely going to be some uniform changes because the lessons learned from the GW will be simular. All these races fought like hell with each other then fought together against two common enemies (the first joining them against the second). X2 should reflect the lessons learned from that amazing experience.
That should be the center point, the foundation of designing X2.
"Not entirely true...if we put 2X far enough in the future to allow for a 'bear market' period ( as opposed to a bull market period ) then we can have X1B and even X1+ in those years."
Here's the rub, read (X0.0). Some excerpts:
“X-Ships produced during the period Y180-205 were all conversions of existing designs.”
“After Y205, many ships were built from new designs using even more advanced technology.”
“Module X2 might include more First-Generation designs.”
So, the question is what is Module X2? Is X2 more of X1 or post Y205 new designs?
I’m interested in filling the gaps between Y180-205 with more X ships. I am not interested in creating a stand-alone game system of post Y205 ships incompatible with everything existing. That way lies the same fate as the 1985 X2 attempt.
I would like X2 to be fully playable (GW+X1+X2 working together) in the era between Y186-205 when the races continued to upgrade their existing production hulls with trickle-down partial X-tech.
I agree to a degree. But there is historical data that needs ship for it. The Trade Wars begin in year 205. Then there is the Xorkellian invasion. X1A would be perfect for the time you mention Tos. But Y205+ is going to need ships and the Xorkellians are supposed to be pretty bad ass. X2 should provide ships for that time.
IMHO.
I'm not saying there shouldn't be post Y205 ships designed to fight the Xorkellians. I'm saying these uber ships will be incompatible with GW era ships and ergo I have as much interest in them as I do in Omega.
I understand your point of view. I wouldn't go as far to say that X2 ship would be incompatible with GW era ship but there is a chance that could happen. If it were left up to me I would design a system that would be. I think it can be. The designs I posted earlier would have a paradigm that would have some weak points to GW era ships but those weak points would begin to close as you reach X2 levels because of the difference in opperating procedures.
But I understand you. If X2 went the wrong way I would feel the same. BPV can balance ships only to a certain point.
Quote:I'm not saying there shouldn't be post Y205 ships designed to fight the Xorkellians. I'm saying these uber ships will be incompatible with GW era ships and ergo I have as much interest in them as I do in Omega.
You can send 225 BPV worth of Klingon D4s against one Fed CX ( 225 BPV old rules 240 New )...Even 4 D4s against the Fed CX and the X-ship will win...hands down.
No one would build such a scenario.
No one ( apart from perhaps myself ) would even consider the tactical implications of such a thing ( can 20R3 transporters capture a CX?...it is the only hope! ).
Why..because it's just too many shifts of tech?
Because even with BPV, you can't account for Force Dynamics and PARRY POWER!?!
Pretty much so...does anybody really need an answer as to why it's unworkable?
An Admiral who sent a GW ship taskgroup to fight a Second Generation X ship ( tech leap generations not trickle down generations ) would be just as silly as one that sent a bunch of Y-ships to fight a first generation X-ship.
The COMPATABILITY that you seek is not as hard to find as you think.
Some people think that they have to co-habitate with someone before they can have a successful marriage, other's believe that you don't need to do so to have a successful marriage.
Don't get causght up in the idea that COMPATABILITY is IMPOSSIBLLY DIFFICULT or that Ships moving at speeds 32+ are going to ruin the game.
Space Dragons and Plasma Sabot do it without breaking the game.
Ships jumping range because they are moving faster than speed 32 won't break the game, ships already jump range all the time, because they tend to move at similar speeds ( how often do 28 and 20 not move at the same impulse...12 times of which 8 they are jumping range ).
Look at what playtesting will generate before you develop an opinion on the super32 speeds.
MJC, you're right that objects being able to move faster than 32 doesn't necessarilly ruin the game. But space dragons and plasma sabot are exceptions being fatser than anything else by 20%. Going faster than 32 will change the impulse chart so much that it would be better to reduce the duration of the turn to make old speed 32 equal to X2 speed 16. Having speeds differentials would certainly be better than everything on the •••• map moving speed 31/32 the whole game like in late war.
...and space dragons only do it as a special case. Mother going to baby under attack.
"Look at what playtesting will generate before you develop an opinion on the super32 speeds."
MJC: I think you have me mistaken for someone else. I am an advocate of expanding the impulse chart. My favorite option was to break each impulse into:
Movement
Impulse
Direct Fire
X2-Movement
X2-Impulse
X2-Direct Fire
All ships would move, IA and direct fire. Then X2 ships would have the possibility of a second move, a second IA and a second direct fire (replacing the X-Aegis function). Then we move to the next impulse.
Unfortunately I've come to accept that the Powers that Be are firmly opposed to mucking with these basic building blocks of the game.
What is X1? If we can define this it will be easier to decide what X2 would be.
To me X1 is desperate we-must-win(avoid loosing)-the-war-at-any-cost conversions.
Like the Wyns uber-designs. Too powerful really for general use, and long service life.
If we look at the ships we can see they all have as much high tech as is possible to cram into their hulls, with no thought to wether it suits the hulltype, or operating style of the race. The worst example is the Seahawks with their aegis-rigs!
The service life of these ships is probably very short due to very high maintenance demands.
It is likely X2 is about not so overbuilt(w?) ships, but with new revolutionary systems (for each race of course. I am not talking about generic stuff here).
These systems are thos that never were fully tested during GW.
Okay, some things to think about. I'm not necessarily advocating all of this, just brainstorming a bit. If you look at the progression of the basic ships from each period, you get a sense of the magnitude of change that occurs with each no revolution of technology. For example:
The EY Fed CA has 2 photons, and 24 warp. The photons cannot be overloaded or proxied.
The 0X Fed CA has 4 photons, and 30 warp. Photons can be overloaded or proxied.
The 1X Fed CA has 4 photons, and 40 warp. Photons can be overloaded, proxied, and fast loaded.
If you continue this trend, the 2X Fed CA would have 50 warp, probably 4 photons, and the photons would get some sort of gee-whiz ability they didn't previously have. I put some suggestions up on the "Big Boys" thread, so I won't cross post them here. The point, though, is that there is a pretty linear progression for X ships that can be followed, and the changes can probably be handled without breaking the game. For example, the idea of 50 warp points for a CA. Sounds high, but if you were to assume that the 2X ships is physically larger than its predecessors, you could give it a move cost of 1.25; in other words, 40 warp points to move 32. That gives it a warp power surpluss not much different than a 1X ship has, and so isn't as much of a game breaker as you might think. Personally, I think it's reasonable to assume a 2X ships would be larger; keep adding all those systems and it's got to result in a bigger ship.
BUT, weapons development is hardly linear!
Something more than just increasing size of power, weapon systems and hull is needed. And logical.
Besides, what says the ravaged post-war economies would buil BIGGER and concequently more expensive ships???
To sum up my previous post:
Cut half the X1 ship abilities, and then add at least two race specifk new weapons/systems/abilities.
These systems was probably invented during GW but the testing took to long for them to be introduced during that time.
(An analogy would be the problems the Germans had during WWII to introduce the new technology. Testing the stuff to get rid of the inevitable flaws took years!)
The Roms, for example, could get a new Cloak with improved capabilites + an ECM pseudo torp with variable ECM output (tied to endurance) for breaking PPD lock-ons. (Perpaps a max of 16 ECM during 4 impulses. BTW. it would probabaly be COs)
The Klinks would get a one shot ESG with built in capacitor (only rechargable at a base) to mount on all cruisers.
Plus perhaps something extra (free hets
?)
This is just incomplete examples of the dirrection I think X2 should take.
Carl,
I agree. See my post in "X tech for big boys" for examples. Bigger weapons aren't the answer...it's improving existing stuff, or adding some new abilities that will make it work in most cases.
I don't agree or disagree about ship sizes being larger. It depends on the race. Some races may indeed go with larger, more powerful ships; others may go with smaller ones. I just put up the comparison to kind of give an idea about how technology changed the ships with each generation.
>> weapons development is hardly linear
True for all tech.
Most tech goes through several identifiable stages following an S shaped curve (slow advance, big jump, level off). Look at how aircraft developed. Compare typical planes in 10 year jumps for the last hundred. Top speed incereases slowly at first, then jumps dramatically during the 1940s and 1950s, then more or less levels off.
Photons might be at their peak developement by X1.
The basic glodal aproach to heavy weapons I was suggesting was most of the races hit the wall with reguards to power and size of their heavy weapons. For example: The Feds just couldn't build a larger Photon Torp. It had stability problems, shock problem, available space problems etc. So they took a step back and turned in a new direction. Scale down to weapon to 2/3 size and fire twice as many. This gives the ship 30% more fire power and twice the Flexability.
A slightly diferent approach for disruptors. On the naturely heavier hulls they could mount a slightly larger Disruptor (Increase damage out put by 20% (round up) for all ranges out to 30. Give these R40 max). But they can fire twice (2 points per shot). Since these are bigger weapons, Over Loading was problematical, so OL creats a third shot. A marked advantage over the Fed.
Yes, the Fed still has a greater damage out put but the Klingon is firing so often he'll be pulling out his hair.
What ever the aproach, there are ways to do it without creating uber weapons.
If X2 offered a new paradigm for tactics, well, that would be great. I would be dissappointing to just stretch out the old tactics with bigger weapons with bigger defences.
Also, late War GW ship should be able to match BPV and have a chance to at least force a whithdrawl of an X2 ship. I think it can be done.
Actually on planes top speed jumped dramatically in the 30s. But those designs weren't built in large numbers until the 40s.
Loren if the FRA can build Heavy Photons, so could the Federation. After all they are coming from the same Tech base. But the Federation decided for simplicitys sake. And for ease of maintenace to just produce the std Photon.
The biggest change I would like to see is an increase to the heavy weapon range brackets analogous to the Old 2X rules (IE OL to R10). Not sure if it would be practicle. Depends on the rest of the material.
I agree that improvemnts need to be made in each races own area of expertise/weakness.
As to rapid fire of phasers. Simply let each phaser fire as many times as the power would let it. (IE 1Ph-1=2Ph-3.) Giving it a limited Gatling ability. True Gatling power should be left to the Hydrans. Making each of their Ph-1's = 4Ph-3 pulses. Preserving Racial flavor.
X1 ships can do that now. It's just limited to firing against targets that can be engaged by an aegis system.
That keeps the x-ship from using rapid-pulse against ships and reducing x-ship tactics to close 'n hose.
I can't accept anything from Omega to determin anything in Alpha since SVC has stated as such. To use that premise (The FRA did so the Feds could) would be ultimatly lead to failure.
To say the Feds couldn't build a bigger Photon doesn't mean it was impossible. It means they didn't within acceptable parameters. And what I said wasn't an attempt to state any kind of fact. It was to offer a possible premise.