Yeah, run for R4, narrow salvo the photon, fire all the ph-1s, and stay out of R3.

By George Duffy (Sentinal) on Tuesday, July 20, 2010 - 05:12 pm: Edit

???

How does one narrow salvo a single photon?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, July 20, 2010 - 05:52 pm: Edit

How does one not narrow salvo a single photon?

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Tuesday, July 20, 2010 - 05:55 pm: Edit

Exactly.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Tuesday, July 20, 2010 - 07:42 pm: Edit

Assume a fixed map for the moment. This is a lot like a TC duel, but better for the Klingon.

R4 is a bit tricky, as you'll never stay outside R3 if you want to load the photon again. If you miss with the photon, you'll be dead, as the phasers won't do half the Klink's front shield and probably won't break the #2.

The Fed has 12 power. T1 EA looks something like HK 1.5 (PFC), photon 6, 4.33 move = speed 10/15. Corner dodge.

T2 is HK 2.5, photon 2, 1/6 contingent HET, 7.33 move = 19/26. To get the photon shot and escape, you'll need to win a turning duel (both TM A, but you're nimble), cross the T or HET. And go faster. But on a fixed map, he will catch you. You'll probably want to adopt EM after firing.

The Klink has 15 power. T1 EA is 2 HK (LPFC), 4 disr, speed 27. You'll almost certainly get range 15, so can probably bang a front shield for 3 or 6, limiting his options for T2.

T2 EA has options. Brick, overloads, speed or tractor. A bit of ECM or a 5-pt brick on the nose (a 21-point shield!) will absorb the photon and R4 phasers allowing for an overrun.

A floating map is easier for the Fed (he can at least fire at 8 and run), but he'd better hit with the photon.

Internals-wise, the Fed has good fluff, but the Klink has 6 weapons to the Fed's 4, and they're easier to repair. Oddly, the Klink has 6 BPs and 1 transporter; the Fed has 2 and 2. Without COs, H&Rs are not going to play a major role.

If the Fed can somehow get R4 on a rear shield, that's a bit different.

I rate this 6-4 to the Klink, or 7-3 on a fixed map.

By Ed Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Tuesday, July 20, 2010 - 08:24 pm: Edit

Actually I think the fed has 13. Ok maybe the way to go about this is not to fire the Photon and make it a war of the P1 vs the Disrs, at least for awhile. the Klingon is going to have the speed advantage no matter what as long as he just uses standard disr. MIght want to try the 15 range. At 15 the fed gets 1 point of damage on average for P1 fire, so 3 points per turn. the Klingon will only have a 1/3 chance of hitting, because the fed is a nimble ship and at 15 he gets 2 ECM for that status. So 3 points vs 1.3 on average at 15. Keep the Ol Photon as the deterent until you are ready to use it. also you do have 2 batteries to the klingons 1 keep one as reserve warp for EM which only cost 1 point for it.

By Richard Sherman (Rich) on Tuesday, July 20, 2010 - 09:10 pm: Edit

I'd also point out that, due to the recent changes to the POL, it now has 4 BP.

It's uphill, but I really don't think this is as tough for the POL is others are making it out to be. The POL will always have the maneuver advantage, as it is a nimble ship with a TM of A. If it can maneuver for a shot against a flank or rear shield by getting the E4 into a turning contest, the Fed can pull this out. Fighting like that, a range 8 pass is not out of the question for the Fed, especially if the E4 wants to fight with overloads.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Wednesday, July 21, 2010 - 11:55 pm: Edit

Most people advocate trying to OL the photon.

What if the Fed decides to load standards' and phaser boat the E4 at range 5?

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Thursday, July 22, 2010 - 12:05 am: Edit

Oh, and to specify....use a semi-floating map. Any unit more than 60 hexes from hex 2215 is considered to have disengaged.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, July 22, 2010 - 09:53 am: Edit

Mike,

I've fought the Tholian PC versus Klingon E4 duel several times, usually as the Tholians and usually fighting as much as I can at range 5. Though it's not a slam dunk, in my experience the Tholian is advantaged in that fight. I don't know whether that would transfer over to the Fed POL or not. The Tholian has a couple of significant edges as a phaser boat. It has 4 phaser-1s, all of which can fire anywhere in the FX arc, and it has much better shields than the POL. I don't know whether the photon torpedo adequately compensates for that, but I do think your suggestion is worth a try.

By Sidney G. Kanouse (Konus67c7) on Friday, July 23, 2010 - 05:49 pm: Edit

My friend and I fought this duel yesterday to a draw of sorts. Both ships, Fed. POL and Klg. E4 have the same turn mode and movement cost. The kicker is that the Fed. is nimble. If you get on the E4's backside and stay there, you can give him hell. It was difficult for me being in the E4 to shake him off, the nimble status is a big advantage. Once you take some weapons damage, especially the photon, it gets dicey for the Fed. At the end of this game we both took equal amounts of damage, but I still had both disruptors, and my drone rack. The Fed. was out his photon and two phaser ones. This duel lasted longer than expected, but it was a hoot.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Friday, July 23, 2010 - 05:58 pm: Edit

The other advantage the Pol has is that the E4 can't safely HET, so if the Fed does get behind, he can stay there until the E4 stops.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 02:19 am: Edit

Time for another tactical discussion.

2nd Fed-Kzinti War, Y130ish or so (can't recall offhand).

You are in command of a Fed destroyer squadron (3xDD, none of this DDM crap).

Your orders are to destroy a Kzinti supply convoy which is enroute to a captured (formerly) Federation colony world. If the convoy reaches the planet, the Kzinti will be able to construct major defensive units (lots and lots of GBDP's...),forcing a major ground assault in order to liberate the planet later.

SFIC reports that the convoy will consist of 2 Kzinti tugs (with self-defense pods), 3 F-AL's (drone-armed), with an escort of 1 CS and 2 CL's.

Convoy starts in hex 2215, facing C, speed 8, WS-1.

Your squadron enters any map edge, speed any, WS-3.

There is a Class-M planet 150 hexes from hex 2215 in direction C. Any Kzinti cargo ship that ends its turn adjacent to the planet is considered to have delivered its cargo. The Kzinti must deliver a minimum of 50% (half) of the cargo to the planet to win. Any other result is a Federation victory. Any cargo boxes on any Kzinti ship which disengages is considered destroyed.

Due to shortages and other wartime realities, Commander's Option points are NOT in use for either side (exceptions noted below).

All Kzinti freighter and tug drones are type I slow (speed 8). The Kzinti warships have 10 points, TOTAL, for drone upgrades/purchases.

All Federation ships have 5 extra BP's and 2 t-bombs each.

Be advised that max transporter range at this time is range FOUR (4).

Discuss.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 02:20 am: Edit

Floating map, obviously.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 04:12 am: Edit

Well,

1) The Large armed freighters are FAST. So they can get there in about 6 or 7 (iirc) turns unless you start between them and the planet. So do so.

2) The Kzinti drones are useless except for an overrun. But since they will win it outright for the Kzinti if you let them get to short range you can't let them get close.

3) The Kziti don't have derfacs yet ??? If so then they are outgunned at range. But once the feds lose their #1 shield they are toast to sniping miza attacks.

4) The Feds might consider instead using the "fighting instructions" of the EY Fed fleets. Come in and salvo the Photons and then fight as Phaser boats. With just phasers (18 between them) I think they might actually outgun the Kzinti.

5) The kzinti might consider a suicide anchor run in. You'll lose an escort or two and then gut the DDs. IIRC the DDs have what? 20 point shields? Even if your drones only suck up phasers 20 point shields will be penetrated by 2 phaser ones and a couple P3. Then the rest of the stuff mizias them.

So what does EvilMike think?

Mike (not evil, but a tad warped)

By Todd Warnken (Toddw) on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 07:45 am: Edit

Perfect time to use retrograde tactics.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 10:03 am: Edit

I'm mostly going to side with Mike Grafton here. Retrograde tactics would be extremely effective if the planet were further away. The effective Kzinti firepower at long range is close to zero. But with the planet only 150 hexes away, retrograde tactics won't do enough damage fast enough to prevent most of the cargo from reaching the planet.

The Fed primary weapon is the phaser-1 for this battle, due to the destroyers' poor power. That doesn't mean you totally ignore the photons. But they are an "afterthought" that you arm if you've got power left over after you've spent what you need to spend for phasers and movement (and maybe EW). Enter holding standards (maybe light overloads of 10 or 12 points) for power reasons, because your phaser capacitors are already full. Fire the photons when you have a good shot, but don't be in a hurry to rearm them once you have done so.

Preferred engagement range is 4 hexes if you have photons armed, 5 hexes if you don't. 3 hexes is dangerous due to the improved phaser-3 fire and the possibility that the big Kzinti ships could tractor you. At 2 hexes or less, the Kzinti phaser-3s will crush you. Be wary of sudden Kzinti speed changes to catch you at close range.

Focus your attention on the F-ALs. Your job here is to kill cargo, not warships.

You are unlikely to need the T-bombs against his slow drones. Use them as an impromptu mini-minefield between the Kzinti and the planet, either forcing him to take additional damage or to go around, giving your ships an additional turn of fire.

My favorite races are the Tholians and the Romulans. Take everything I say about Federation tactics with a grain of salt.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 10:23 am: Edit

By the way, regarding Mike Grafton's point 5), the Fed DDs wish they had 20 point shields. The #1 shield is 20 but I believe the rest are only 16. Yes, the Fed FF has more total shield boxes (18 all around) than the Fed DD.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 11:56 am: Edit

One further point, something I should have made clearer in my 10:03 am post; when I said

---

Quote:

Focus your attention on the F-ALs. Your job here is to kill cargo, not warships.

---

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 11:15 pm: Edit

Interesting. So, ignore the tugs, eh?

And yes, the Fed DD is an interesting mix of raw firepower and glass shields.

Which is why we all love it so...

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Friday, October 08, 2010 - 12:20 am: Edit

I don't see the DDs having both the speed and firepower (one or the other sure) to run down the freighters while the escorts (including the tugs) come in for an anchor.

An alternative strategy is for the Kzinti to launch a sheaf of drones and use them to "plow the road" and screen the DDs from range 8...

By Chris Upson (Misanthropope) on Friday, October 08, 2010 - 02:37 am: Edit

beat him to the planet. set up a minefield for size class 3. lurk behind the planet, power up and hold maybe half your tubes as full overloads. if he won't close, insult him with proxes and a few phasers, and use the planet to shed drones. if he mans up, the knife fight should be excellent fun, and maybe even winnable.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Friday, October 08, 2010 - 05:47 am: Edit

The freighters are the key with 150 cargo boxes between them. The Kzin should start by shooting the penny-pincher that thought speed eight was a good speed in a combat zone, then consider the tugs part of the escort and use them along with the warships to engage the Feds before they can get good shots at the freighters. The Feds don't have the time or power supplies for a good retrograde, so really need to somehow slip past the Kzin escort for a good shot at the freighters before they accelerate enough to be uncatchable.

The Feds have a hard task. If the Kzin charge with their five cruisers and lose them all without damaging the Feds the Kzin can still win provided the freighters slip past. I'd expect a charge to do better than that - loaded Fed DD's hit hard but those tugs are very tough. The first turn is the Fed best bet since they can start just 15 hexes away and attack while the Kzin are still slow.

Is EW in use? Do the Fed T-bombs have radius-1 detectors?

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Friday, October 08, 2010 - 03:35 pm: Edit

The Freighters are NOT speed 8 AFAIK.

They are ARMED freighters and are actually faster than the DDs when the DDs are loading photons...

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, October 08, 2010 - 03:41 pm: Edit

Maybe they need to be regular large freighters.