Loren: I'm not saying that the Federation would. Just that they could. The Fed's decided NOT to pursue H/L photon tech because it was simpler and more efficient to produce the vanilla type.

Not an inconsiderable argument when you have as many ships and territory as the Federation. Quite a different situation from the FRA.

I was simply trying to remind everyone that alternative Photons DO exist outside of the Simulator.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, December 20, 2002 - 10:56 pm: Edit

"I was simply trying to remind everyone that alternative Photons DO exist outside of the Simulator."

OK, I can live with that.

By Marc Remaley (Skawpya) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 10:30 am: Edit

On the idea of improving defences, one possibility is that in x2, the galatic races manage to draw upon the volley reduction factor of the magellanic races in some form, yet still use the reinforcement rules they are used to. The most affected weapon, the x2 disrupter would be compensated by having its damage split in half, one half impacted by vrc, the other half affecting the shield normally.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 10:40 am: Edit

Okay, let's look at it another way. Here is a first draft of a potential version of a Federation 2X CC. I am not submitting this, so please keep the howls of outrage to a minimum. Where I work, we use visual aids to kick-start brainstorming sessions, particularly in regards to complex problems. Seems like it might be worth a shot, here. Seeing the potential SSD might give us better ideas. So, please look at this as a conversation starter...not an actual submission.

Federation 2X Command Cruiser

Now, a few obvious points. The warp power available follows the same increase patter seen from EY-0X-1X. To compensate for too much available power, move cost is upped to 1.25...reasonable, since the ship would seem to be bigger than a CC, but not quite DN sized. The phasers use the old overload rules, with those tables included. There is about a 50% increase command facilities, again a reasonable option for a ship this wildly expensive. The phasers could be fired in rapid-pulse mode, so the phaser 3 charts are included. The photon is the hypothetical 2X photon I mentioned in the 2X photon thread. 25% more powerful, with the same firing options as before. In fact, other than the increased damage (and associated power cost) it behaves just like the current 1X photon in all respects, save a 180-degree firing arc for added flexiblity. A bit more impulse power, five point batteries and pretty hefty shields round it out.

Now...how do folks feel about this type of direction for 2X? Is it too much? Not enough? Just right? I'd be happy to make changes, or other proposed versions if it stimulates the conversation.

By Marcin Radzikowski (Marcin) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 11:40 am: Edit

Mike,

I like your initiative. However, would you have something done for one of the other races? As I see it, the best way for anyone to make intelligent comments about this whole 2X issue is to play this ship against 0X, 1X, and other 2X ships.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 12:09 pm: Edit

As it happens, yes, I do. I have a Klingon 2X BC, Romulan, Gorn...the whole group, in fact, save the Tholians, Orions, Seltorians and Jindos. I just haven't put them up, until we got somewhere with the basic direction 2X should go. In the case of these ships, they're alot like the Fed one in terms of power and weapons, though each has some special abilties or components.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 01:03 pm: Edit

Mike R. Kudos for taking the initiative as well. As a general comment to all, I would like to say that as a minimum I we work with the Fed and the Klingon the rest of the game can be made to fall into place. Next and probably concurrently the Romulans should be considered. Once these races are balanced, the rest will have a firm foundation.

Back to Mike: Looking at that SSD I feel it is actually over powered. Perhaps cut the AWR down by two. But the major thing is this querry: What would it do if you widened the rear hull by one box. Make the AWR a six box group and turn it side ways. Ruduce the 360` P-1s to three and put the Aux and tractors side by side.

Also, I think the Forward hull is a tade light on hull boxs. I think a couple more would be good.

Those are just my first thoughts. THe rear hull widening might not work. I was just curious if it would though.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 01:19 pm: Edit

Loren,

The forward Hull is 14, up from a standard Fed CA of 12.

Mike R,
Why is the move cost 1.25?

Also, other than massive shields, how does it take damage better than a X1 cruiser? I think you'll find this ship will have the same problems old X2 did with excessive offense unbalanced by defense.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 01:25 pm: Edit

John, I know. It is your second question that answers the first. If it's going to be 1.25 (which I think is cool) then 16 would be better.

If I remember the Old X2 correctly these were even larger hulled ships. Boy, it's been a Loooong time since I've seen those. Though, I'm pretty sure my friend Dwight still has them.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 01:31 pm: Edit

Widening the hull is a thought; I'll play with it, and see what comes up.

I must, however, humbly disagree that it's overpowered...that is, if the idea is to follow the pattern set by each generation's progress over the previous.

Ship	Warp Power	Reserve Power
Fed 0X CA	30	0
Fed 1X CC	40	12
Fed 2X CC	50	12

The table shows the amount of reserve warp power available if the ship in question moves at speed 30. Note that both the 1X and 2X ships have the same leftover power from the engines; the only excess power for the 2X ship comes from batteries and AWR. There is a fair amount of AWR, that's true, but the added expense of heavier photons makes up for it.

But the biggest reason for a bit extra reactor power is that the 1X generation of ships had, to my mind, a big problem: they were too dependent on batteries. Look at a 1X CC. When the batteries are drained, it isn't much more than a suped-up CA. Fixing that problem would, in my mind, be something 2X ships should address. It isn't a perfect answer, because there isn't enough reserve power available to recharge that many batteries, but it helps.

Still, we seem to be off to a good start! Let's see what others think of the ship's power curve, and then we can go from there. I'll put up the Klingon ship later, after there's been some discussion around the general direction we want to go.

John, the move cost is up for two reasons; one, because it's a physically larger ship. Two, it helps mitigate the excess power the ship would have with such large engines. As for the ability to take damage, it does have some extra hull - though not a great amount, at 2 boxes for the forward and aft sections. The extra engine boxes give it some longevity, and with extra command boxes, it can stay in the game a bit longer, too. I know what you mean, though, and it's a concern that I don't know how to address in any meaningful way. I don't want to just toss on armor or more hull boxes, so I'd think some sort of system would be the answer. But, that's something to think about. See, an SSD does help generate good ideas!

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 01:34 pm: Edit

Mike: Perhaps add some NWO?

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 01:59 pm: Edit

The direction I would like to see x2 go is not just bigger ships.

I am not exactly sure what to suggest at this point though.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 02:15 pm: Edit

This ship proposal, while reasonable, breaks both X0 and X1 forcing it into X2 only battles. That doesn't work for me.

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 02:24 pm: Edit

I'd like to see a refinement of X1 technology, including vastly improved defenses. Weapons are already pretty deadly as it is...

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 02:36 pm: Edit

My friend is sending me his X2 stuff of old. That will help in a few ways. One, seeing it was a failed path, is to make sure we don't go that way. There is not much point to all this if we accedently recreat the old stuff.

My old post regarding Warp would actually provide more power in less space but would be more vulnerable to damage that, in turn, would be mitigated by other defenses.

Battles would result in less destroyed ships and more retreats as these ships will be so valuable that the sacrafice of one would be acceptable only in the defense of a Planet and a great number of lives. Destruction of a ship was always a big deal but the loss of any X2 ship will be like losing a Capitol Ship, not acceptable.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 03:55 pm: Edit

Tos,

That's one of the fundamental questions we need to answer. Where do X2 ships fit in the universe?

If it's a quantum leap in technology, then it would have the same results as other quantum leap battles: CA vs. D4, BCH va. D6, CX vs CA, CXX vs. CX.

Kudos Mike for taking the initiative.

I'm not sure that BOTH more and better phasers is the way to go. In the FH arc (except forward centerline), there are 12 ph-1s facing the target. In OL range, that's the same effective firepower as 18 ph-1.

There's supposed to be a drop off in firepower between range 8 and 9. But, OL phasers to range 8 amplifies this difference in a humungous way.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 04:57 pm: Edit

Jeff,

Thanks. You're right, that this ship does have a hellacious phaser suite. I sort of have an advantage here, beacause I designed the ship...and the other races X ships, too. As it happens, the heavy proliferation of phasers is one of the big pluses the Fed CCX has. It only has four photons, and no more. Granted, they are a bit more powerful. But it's the phaser array that makes this ship so deadly. The other races I have don't have quite this many phasers, but they have other advantages to helpo make up for it. The Rom and Kzinti 2X CC/BC's I have really make a player WANT a good phaser defense, trust me.

By Daniel G. Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 06:39 pm: Edit

Hrmmmm....

Not big on the 2X idea my self, but a suggestion as a new starting point for you Mike. Base your designs off of the BCH ships and not the older CA class ships. Why would the ship designers have abandoned everything they learned getting to the BCH.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 07:20 pm: Edit

Here is a possible solution for X2 when the time comes. (S8.X2)When a nonX-Ship is opposing an X2 force the non-X-ship fleet gains a 10% bonus in BPV to be used for purchacing the main force. This is to reflect the inherent superiority that X2 ship have over non-X-ships.

Or something like that to solve some problems we might come across in balancing GW with X2. Though, historically GW ships shouldn't be facing X2 ships.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 07:26 pm: Edit

Daniel K. It has been published that there will be an X2. When that will be is unknown. The same with the "What it will be" as well.

The cool thing is that there will be no holes in your rules if you choose to Opt out. I would like to see the history start to get wrapped up. The current history is great and has lot and lots of room for cool new things. But I would like to see some of the end of the time line filled in.

Boy would I like to see a preview of the Xorkellians!

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 07:35 pm: Edit

Mike, it's the super-big phaser array that broke X1 in the first place.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 08:05 pm: Edit

No it's not. That wasn't changed at all. Deleting overloads and "gatling" was the fix. I would say then those were the problems. The SSDs are still the same with the same array of phasers.

Unless you are refering to the X-ships before Captains Edition. If that is the case, they were only slightly reduced.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 09:06 pm: Edit

Loren, the Fed CX has 4 FH, 3 LF/L, 2 360, 3 RF/R ph-1s, a total of 9 phasers pointing in the FH arc. That's not excessive. But being able to OL those phasers pushed it over the top.

A captain didn't have any tactical reason to fire at range 6, nor did he have a reason to risk holding for range 4. That's what broke it. Regardless of race, all old-X1 duels traded shots at range 5.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 09:57 pm: Edit

Jeff:

Did I just hear you right?

Did you just say HUMUNGOUS!?!


D.C.K.:

Apparently because the BCHs just could do their thing AND suffer the stresses of being Xified.


J.T.:

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Quote:

Mike, it's the super-big phaser array that broke X1 in the first place.

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By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 10:08 pm: Edit

Here's two ideas for Defenses that might be allowable for X2 that could developed protection from alpha strikes without developing Drone and Plasma Proof vessels.

1) Allow energy from the Phaser capasitors to be used as VERTUAL Battery power for the purposses of Specifical and General shield reinforcement.

2) Develop a Structural Enhancement Feild system.
Thus when powered ( each ship will have the power cost of the system writen in the details just underneath the sheild cost ) the HULL and EXCESS damage boxes of the vessel will require 2 points of damage in a volley to destroy ( unless there is only one point of damage in a volley, in which case the hull or Excess damage box is destroyed ) and Armour boxes will require 3 points of damage to destroy ( unless the last one or two points of damage being inflicted is inflicted on the armour box ).
Not that transporters will be able to opperate through the hull ( and armour and Excess damage ) whilst the structural integrity feild is intact.


With these two functions all X2 vessel will attain a mauler like toughness in that it can start to take a tremndous pounding but after a while, it'll either be useless or it'll need to pull out and recharge and that; that recharging will take a while.
Thus extending the number of turns of the battle and loosing the One shot Auto cripple aspect of old X1 fights.