Archive through October 21, 2010
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Tournament Zone:
Tactics Discussion:
Archive through October 21, 2010
Cloaking away a dozen drones is a fine use of the device. Once the romulan has driven his opponent from the center of the map with an enveloper he can hold the position better than a gorn that is trying not to get swarmed under. AFC is useless during a cloak turn- the plan is not to simply rinse away the active drones, but to prevent the droner from starting a new killstack. The reputation as a top tier ship is well earned and is based on actual games. The TKR is a relatively new ship that underachieves compared to its kinsman. The extra pair of forward hull protecting the batteries are an underapreciated advantage for the firehawk.
If you think the TKR is better than the TFH, go ahead and use it. You're allowed to disagree about which ship is better. In my eyes both are fairly solid middle of the pack ships with perhaps a small edge to the TKR.
Xander I think we are all talking slightly about different things.
Of note: the romulan should only cloak when he is "In the weeds". Ie he has no torps and is recharging them and the opponent is closing on the coming turn.
Every time I see you play it is "I cloak when I do not have full plasma". The cloaking device isn't there to be used just because it is available. Nearly every time you cloak the 18 points are better spent on either speed or rein.
The romulan is theoretically better than the gorn because the cloak gives it another "option" which in most cases when needed it does great. Cloaking 2/3 turns because you can is just not how the rom wins(TKE exception here).
You need to stop focussing so much on the "cloak as much as I can" mindset and get on the "damage my opponent with my weapons mindset". To start just try the enveloping theory and see how that starts to work for you. By this I mean:
Launch an enveloper T1 with the second torp rolling delayed. Launch at R12-14 and turn off. Wait for opponenet to fire suboptimally and then turn off.
T2 Follow behind at spd 15 or 21 with a late spd 26 and after he deals with enveloper 1 launch #2 once he starts to turn around again at R12 or so. Then turn and run or get R8 if outside of FA.
T3 DO NOT CLOAK and run at spd 26 all turn.
T4 plus ...repeat ad infinitum.
You seem to keep losing as I see your games go T1: launch 2 real S.
T2 opponenet runs from 2 Storps, but RFH cloaks out as spd 10.
T3 Opponent turns around at spd 26..and guess what RFH cloaks at spd 10. Opponenet closes.
T4 RFH comes outa cloak and takes a ton of damage while opponent weasels off the 100.
You need to have the opponent fighting uphill against your plasma not you cloaking and staying in a location at spd 10 with a sign out saying "If you can reach me I can be killed easily".
As well against disr races esp KLI etc a Chuck and duck is golden-mostly launch plasma at close range and then weasel. Due to weasel operations the plasma impacts before the +2 to his weapons fire goes away.
Other helpful hints are that if you are arranging things to your liking then use that. ie a good hydran plot is the enveloper plus going spd 13 all turn(with 26 on imp 28+) this gives you some 12 or so reinforcement so you launch the enveloper and allow him to reach r8. You take his fire on the reinf shield and use your phasers against 1 of his fighters(ie all 4 of em) to kill it for future payoffs his fire dents your shield but you really can't prevent that much.
The other caveat here is I suck at plasma so these are just opening moves you can use, but they are standard doctrine for the enveloping crowd. They are std doctrine as they tend to work.
Remember you do not have to always cloak! Of course if needed it does work great.
Xander wrote:
>>Yes, but about that cloak...even if the Kzin DID build up a wave of 12 drones...that can be dealt with conventionally, by a ship with plenty of phasers (say, the Gorn TCC with 8 Ph-1s) at-one-a-drone over as many turns as he wants to run them out, for 12 power total.>>
Sure. But if the Kzinti has 12 drones on the map, and his opponent is dealing with them through conventional means (i.e. phasers), that is 12 phasers that aren't shooting the Kzinti while the Kzinti is shooting them. With the cloak, you blink out, make the drones go away, get shot very little in return, uncloak, and keep coming. As a Gorn, if I'm shooting down 12 drones? I'm losing the game.
>>The cloak takes 18. And, yes, that means those phasers aren't there to be used offensively, but, again, we are doing a comparison...a cloaked Romulan isn't using phasers offensively, either - and to gain the same effect of 'breaking up the drone wave', he's spent 50% more power doing it! >>
And saving phaser capacitors and not getting shot back significantly and keeping them from launching more drones.
[quote]It's just not an efficient way of dealing with drones![/quote]
Well, yeah, it actually is. I mean, you need to do it such that you aren't getting overrun at the same time, but assuming you launch an enveloper or something first, and compel your opponent to run away while you are cloaking, it is a very efficient way to deal with a lot of drones--it costs no non renewable resources (i.e. weasel), saves you from long range sniping, saves you from close range sniping, prevents your opponent from launching more drones (or plasma...). Cloaking isn't something one should do willy nilly, no, but when used, it is often *incredibly* effective.
>>I wonder, though. I mean, the balance against it doesn't look good. And, note, to, the comparison against the TKR (which ALSO has a cloak, but better turn mode, better weapon arcs, more weapons, more labs, more transporters, etc).>>
There is a lot of years of data that indicates that the TFH does well historically (it has won more big tournaments than most other ships), it consistently rated as strong by good players (see: the Tournament RPS thread), and is, as noted, generally regarded as a very good ship. And has the record to back that up. The TKR is kinda less good, specifically 'cause the cloak cost is higher--the TFH can use the cloak reliably, where the TKR can't so much. Even then, that the Cloak is there means its enemy needs to plan around it.
>>Is it not possible that the reason for the RFH's popularity is not due to some inherent strength, but because it IS a poor and challenging design, so the better players are drawn to it for the challenge? (And thus give it a good tournament standing because they are...well, better players)?>>
Oh, certainly not. The TFH is a very strong ship. One of the best in the tournament. Plasma is a very strong weapon. Having 2xS torps in the FH arc is strong as well--it is different than the Gorn, and has to be played differently, but also it has significant strengths to go with it (the arcs specifically).
Again, I think the issue here is probably not the TFH, but plasma in general. Which is hard to figure out. And one can spend a really long time trying to make plasma work, and have it not work real well (I know, I spent a *long* time fighting uphill with plasma before I got the knack for making it work reasonably well).
In terms of the TFH specifically, it has a good phaser suite (5xP1, 4xP3 means it can generally take a moderate volley, lose a couple P3s, and fix them immediately, and be none the worse for wear), solid turn mode, aggressive plasma arcs, and a reasonable cloak cost. The cloak means that (as opposed to the Gorn), its opponent can't just eat a bunch of plasma, lose some shields, corner it and park on top of it. It also means that it can run a game of "launch a plasma, see what happens, launch another plasma, see what happens, cloak if cornered and reload while avoiding most reprisal", which helps a *lot* vs drone users (Kzinti, GBS, Klingon, WAX) and makes the game completely miserable for the Fed. It certainly has a few not great match ups (Hydran tends to be difficult, Tholians are always rough), but overall, the TFH is a very solid ship.
As an adjunct, I'll second the idea of "Try playing the ship like it has no cloak", just to see how it goes. As noted, even if the cloak never turns on, your opponent has to play around it--there will be a lot of situations where with the Gorn, your opponent will only have to plan around two contingencies (weasel or run) where with a Romulan, they have to plan around *three* (weasel or run or cloak), which complicates things considerably.
That, and keep in mind that cloaking is something to do when you are stuck in a corner and your opponent is charging you. It is not something to do when you are in the middle of the map and your opponent is running from your plasma. To echo Kerry's model, with a Gorn, the first couple turns generally go like this:
T1: Come out fast, launch an enveloper or a couple standard S torps (real, fake, or real/fake). Turn off to avoid R8 if you can. Turn back in to follow when your opponent turns to run from the plasma.
T2: Chase them into a corner at high speed. Phaser them up, maybe an F bolt too, launch more plasma they can't avoid 'cause they are in the corner.
T3: Run across the map at high speed and reload.
T4: You are now in a corner, your opponent is getting close, and you have a single S torp. Make that work.
With the Gorn, T4 usually is the rough turn where the game is either won or lost, depending on what my opponent does/did. With the Romulan, T4 easily becomes "stop, launch an enveloper, cloak when your opponent is at R9", giving your opponent the choice of eating the enveloper to get a generally ineffective overrun vs a cloaked opponent or they get to turn off, run away, and give the Romulan some room to regroup.
Oh God I love it when plasma ships launch Envelopers when I'm in a Hydran. Keep them coming, folks!
Concerning the RKR vs the TFH
I used to fly the TKR a lot a while back. I preferred the Gorn-like plasma arcs because I enjoyed the ballet style of play and you can lose forward shielding and still make effective plasma launches. Plus, I just found the TKR to be sexier. With that being said, there are a few subtle advantages that the TFH has over the TKR that have not been pointed out yet.
Chris mentioned the extra forward hull protecting the batteries a bit longer, which helps with anchoring and launching fast loads down the road. The TFH also has more center warp than any other tourney ship, so that means that its shuttle bay is protected really well on the DAC since about half of the shuttle hits inflicted in the game occur on 7s. You can tractor someone, launch a blob of plasma, take serious damage in return, and still be in good shape to pop a weasel next impulse to avoid that enemy suicide shuttle or drone launch that would have tipped the exchange in his favor.
Another little thing is that situations occasionally arise where a Gorn, TKR, or even ISC captain would have an EPT armed and it turns out to be the "wrong" launcher. Let's say you're in a situation where you've already taken some damage and have a down shield and it would be very advantageous for you to launch an EPT because your opponent is also hurt and/or he has a grievous shielding situation. But the launcher that is availible to launch the EPT is not facing your opponent and the only way you can launch it is to either HET or expose a down shield. This leads to painful choices. The beauty of the TKR FH arcs is that there is no "wrong" launcher to have armed because they are both the same and it makes no difference whether you armed torp A or B. And it's already been mentioned that you can launch 80 points at a target anywhere in your FH arc, so aggressive play can be beneficial. Also remember that you can bolt 3 torps anywhere in the FA as well, so that certainly helps when dealing with Tholians and such.
Just as a note...
Quote:You seem to keep losing as I see your games go T1: launch 2 real S
...I've only actually done that ONCE, and it was intended to be a bit of an unexpected maneuver (the S-torps were, in fact, both aimed at Stinger-2s the Hydran had already launched with the expectation that the 8 energy they would take each to recharge was a fair trade to rid the enemy of 4 Fusion beams and 2 Phaser-Gs).
Quote:Remember you do not have to always cloak! Of course if needed it does work great
Honestly, I usually don't when I feel I'm in a fighting position. If I'm down 2 plasma, and the enemy knows that and starts an overrun, then yes, I cloak. An S-torp and an F-torp is only 50 damage...4 overloaded disruptors can do most of that, then the KLI has the two drones, and on top of that substantially more phasers than me (even BEFORE I used any to burn off his drones).
Quote:Also remember that you can bolt 3 torps anywhere in the FA as well, so that certainly helps when dealing with Tholians and such.
*ick* Bolted torps. Worse odds than photons for hitting, and for a weapon that takes 3 turns to arm! *ick*
Quote:launch more plasma they can't avoid 'cause they are in the corner
I've seen that referred to a lot, and I just don't get THAT. Maybe that's the issue?
Against a target going speed, say, 26, being "in a corner" really doesn't seem to be any kind of problem at all. The torpedo has to keep him in its FA arc, which limits some of the maneuver it can do (it can't "lead him" so much that it isn't pointing at him, for example).
My experience is that, against a KLI that often flies at 26 and NEVER below 23, the torpedoes simply never hit unless I closed to well within overload range before trying to fire them, and even then he could easily run them out to not-shield-penetrating.
Quote:Again, I think the issue here is probably not the TFH, but plasma in general. Which is hard to figure out. And one can spend a really long time trying to make plasma work, and have it not work real well (I know, I spent a *long* time fighting uphill with plasma before I got the knack for making it work reasonably well).
Eh...plasma I rather like, in 'regular' SFB. The ability to use EW, above all, really allows the plasma races to balance out, as the enemy either gets to fire at a poor solution if you want the EW situation against him, or has to burn power on ECCM, which slows him down and gives the torpedoes a much better chance at hitting him.
The the plasma torpedoes have +3 ECCM built in is just an added bonus - 3 power the enemy could be spending that you can counter with no cost.
But none of that is in the tourney! Very frustrating...
IIRC Ken Burnside had a good article on the plasma ballet. It was in on of the Starfleet time I think (#25?).
Xander, no ship can avoid getting hit by plasma by going fast alone. Hm, I suspect you don't launch from the right position. Imagine a line on the map - from your opponent to the center of the map - then make sure you launch when you are yourself on the side of that line that corresponds with his direction of movement.
Xander "having someone in a corner" means that he is near the corner of the map.
This means if you are 15 hexes from the map edge corner and your opponent is within 3 or so of it, you can launch a plasma and then turn off. The plasma will impact as it is spd 32 and no matter how fast a single ship is he runs into the wall or the plasma his choice.
This forces a weasel, heavy phaser usage to downgrade, or them eating it. This normally happens on T2. ie T1 you move some spd 31 til 16 spd 15 til EOT and launch the enveloper afte imp 17.
Opponent chooses to run from that enveloper and he has to run towards one corner. The important part is T2 you need to be going fast enough to pace him and once he is cornered launch the second enveloper so he has to take it within R15.
Then you turn out and run like the dickens avoiding R8.
Getting fired on from R8 isn't the killer but from R5 in you can get hurt. I would just take Peters advice and try some games with no cloaking until you are cornered. Just use spd to keep your defenses high and let your torps do all the work.
Quote:I suspect you don't launch from the right position. Imagine a line on the map - from your opponent to the center of the map - then make sure you launch when you are yourself on the side of that line that corresponds with his direction of movement
This is a helpful visualization I hadn't thought of, before. Will give this a try in the next match I find myself in.
Xander wrote:
>>*ick* Bolted torps. Worse odds than photons for hitting, and for a weapon that takes 3 turns to arm! *ick* >>
Alpha Bolting is rarely an optimal plan. But against a Tholian, or a WAX that you got behind and is running away at 30, the range 5 S, S, F bolt from the TFH is occasionally a winning move. And then afterwards, you can cloak out...
>>I've seen that referred to a lot, and I just don't get THAT. Maybe that's the issue? >>
Yeah, that might be an issue--get a couple counters and put them on the map. Put an opponent in the corner somewhere (not the actual last hex, but a few hexes from the corner pointing in a direction as if they are running along the edge). Put the plasma ship on the map as if going into the corner. At any point when you can build an equilateral triangle between your ship, your opponent's ship, and the wall, you will hit them with plasma you launch, unless the HET. And sometimes even then. One of the main weapons of the plasma ships in the tournament is the wall of the map. Push your opponent towards the corner, and count hexes. When they can't avoid the plasma, 'cause they'll hit the wall, launch some plasma. Yeah, they might stop and weasel, but that is often just as good, if not better, than hitting them with the plasma.
>>Against a target going speed, say, 26, being "in a corner" really doesn't seem to be any kind of problem at all. The torpedo has to keep him in its FA arc, which limits some of the maneuver it can do (it can't "lead him" so much that it isn't pointing at him, for example).>>
Sure. But again, look at some counters on a map, and look for an equilateral triangle--you are 9 hexes from your opponent, they are 9 hexes from the wall, the wall is 9 hexes from you. If you launch plasma at them, it will, barring a HET or a stop/weasel, hit them. If you are behind them and they are moving away, this is harder to pull off (unless they aren't going real fast). But if you are, like, heading F, your opponent is heading B, and the corner of the map is in direction F, if you are near the wall, they are near the wall, launched plasma hits things. Again, maybe they HET and avoid it (at which point, the HET is used which is usually good for you) and maybe they decel or hit the wall and weasel (which is usually not a bad outcome either). But all of these are good for you.
>>My experience is that, against a KLI that often flies at 26 and NEVER below 23, the torpedoes simply never hit unless I closed to well within overload range before trying to fire them, and even then he could easily run them out to not-shield-penetrating.>>
Well, against the Klingon specifically, often a plasma ship just needs to suck it up and anchor him. Push him towards the corner on T1, T2, chase him at high speed with tractors. Go around the SP drones (by moving 26-31), catch him and mug him. It is difficult, but not impossible.
>>Eh...plasma I rather like, in 'regular' SFB. The ability to use EW, above all, really allows the plasma races to balance out, as the enemy either gets to fire at a poor solution if you want the EW situation against him, or has to burn power on ECCM, which slows him down and gives the torpedoes a much better chance at hitting him. >>
Sure. But in the tournament environment, you have to get used to the pluses and minuses. Sure, no EW, but a closed map.
>>But none of that is in the tourney! Very frustrating...>>
Well, yes, but again, a closed map, which often makes up for the lack of EW advantage that plasma ships get in the non tournament game. Just get some practice with plasma, try to look for how to corner folks, and worry about the cloak when you are stuck in a corner yourself.
Xander, actually what Peter says about triangles may be better to guide you. I was probably thinking on a situation were my opponent is in close to the corners, and I try keeping the opponent directly on the hex line off either of my #2 or #6 shields (in order to to cut him off).
Xander wrote:
>>*ick* Bolted torps. Worse odds than photons for hitting, and for a weapon that takes 3 turns to arm! *ick* >>
Bolts hit worse than photons only at R0-2 (and why are you bolting there?). At R5, R9-10 and R13-20 they're MORE accurate than photons. Most things are, even particles.
Xander, it's great that you're open to learning this very challenging and tactically complex game. We need more guys like you.
I hope you're not feeling "beat up" by all these guys sharing their knowledge with you. A lesser person might see it as them showing off how they know more than you do about SFB.
Unfortunately, 98% of the people on the BBS are old, veteran players. So yes, they really do know more. When a new player comes along, wanting learn, they can't contain their enthusiasm to help!
Let me give you a pep talk I just gave at this past weekend's SFB Cadet Academy at my club's Game-a-thon (as described in the "SFB Tournament Zone -- Ideas to improve attendance at Rated Ace events" thread). This is a restatement of what Kerry said above.
I played SFB for several years, and consistently got my butt kicked by good players. Then, one guy gave me a pep talk that totally changed how I played the game.
Think of an SFB Tournament game like a boxing match. It is just about impossible to go a whole fight without taking some hits that ring your bell. Real fighting is not like some 'fantasy' kung-fu movie where the hero dodges or blocks 99% of the blows thrown at him. Even the best boxers (or MMA fighters here in the 21st century) will bleed.
You know you're gonna get hit. There is no avoiding it.
The key to winning is to hit the other guy harder, or more often, than he hits you. Knock him down before he knocks you down.
Of course, different ships have different play styles. The Fed is the ultimate "roundhouse" boxer. Not agile (turn mode D). Takes a lot of energy to wind up that big roundhouse punch. If he misses with the punch, he's off balance and most opponents will take advantage of that and hit him good. But, if the Fed connects with that first super roundhouse blow, he's more than half way to victory. He just needs to stay in the fight long enough to finish the other guy off.
The Klingon is more of a "dance and jab" fighter. His best Alpha shot will not knock out an opponent in one shot. He can down a shield and get some good internals, but the foe will still be in fighting shape.
And then there are more than a dozen other ships, each with their own style.
Keep playing and you will get better. You will get a sense for how many internals to expect with each shot. You will get a sense of how much damage each foe will be able to do to you at different ranges. You will start to be able to do some mental math and figure out if you will come out ahead or behind on each given battle pass. You will get a sense of when the "standard, vanilla" strategy is the way to go, or if you have to try something "radical" (like charging your opponent _even though_ half your plasma tubes are empty). You will get a sense of when to launch, when to bolt, and when to hold.
Read all these old posts here in the Tournament Tactics thread. Read the "Victory at... " articles in Captains Log. Keep asking questions and absorbing the knowledge. You will get better.
Hope to see you at Council of Five Nations some time, sooner than later (Google it).
-DC
If I could piggy-back on some of DC's comments...
When I started SFBOL I had a very basic understanding of the game. The folks I met online (and they know who they are) however were very patient and more than willing to guide me, not just on improving my basic game, but taking it to a higher level. I've learned a LOT from them. This in turn allows me to turn around and be a better teacher in my own FTF games.
A couple of months ago I was in very good game, with a very good player. And fortunately for me, several very good players were watching. After the game we all had the opportunity to chat about the game, tactics etc. These guys had seen me play in quite a few games so I simply asked them straight out, "based upon how you've seen me play guys...what ship do you think would best suit my particular style?" Without hesitation the answer came back..."the Romulan TKR". So we chatted about all the reasons why and I gave it a shot my next game. And in fact, I've played this in all my games since, except for the Klink in WL (which is basically the same ship for all intents and purposes as far as arcs etc) and I've done very well with it. Not saying I'm the next TKR Ace...but you never know 
Point is, as DC stated, there is a ton of experience available to a person looking for it. I've been slowly collecting the older issues of CL and reading all the tactics in them and using them in my games. A lot of the people still playing are in those CL's from decades ago. I'd recommend getting them if you can and reading them. That along with this board and talking to people on SFBOL has really been a positive experience. And that is a rarity these days on the net.
Best of luck, enjoy and maybe we can hook up for a game on SFBOL sometime
I read the old Tournaments Tactics Manual until I knew it by heart (alsmost).
The PPgff Orion. Thoughts?
Power hungry, and vulnerable on off arming turns. However, it might be useful against certain heavy hitters like the Fed.
PPgff? Probably not horrible. It has a Gat. It can close to R0 and hose the crap out of someone. Even if it takes 25 internals on the way in, it is still going to get to R0 with 2xOL photons, an OL fusion, and a gat, which will mangle pretty much anyone.
But what opponents would it be good, and bad, against? I wonder if it would be a better second package than the FFgff I have now.
I tend to like PPg1f better than FFg1f as a second package, but that is probably more a function of me not knowing how to fly the plasma package well.
Like me then
I've used the PPgff as a second package in past RATs (w/HHgBB as my primary), but I can't recall ever actually using it.
The gat would make it better vs Seekers, I first thought, but that would also dilute the fire power if using the gat defensively.
Gat makes everything better.