Has there been any thought of doing a Midgit Sub for the Frax? This would be a PF operating under Frax sub rules armed with maybe two axion torps or a single missile rack. No leaders or scouts because they did not operate in groups beyound two attached to a single Mother sub.

The Mother Sub would be a CL sized sub with two mech links only able to carry midget subs, very limited offensive capability and maybe even no special sensors. It could repair or reload a sub on either link, but it's main job is simply delivery. A Frax only tech would be that the midget sub can find and dock with a Mother sub without either uncloaking (maybe through a special tractor, or unassisted... this is a hard to figure point).

Midget variants might be limited to minelayers and commandos, which might be able to use transporters under cloak, or launch a stealthy GAS.

Just a thought.

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Friday, December 20, 2002 - 02:50 am: Edit

The reason midget subs were used in WWII was because they could slip past antisub defences that were designed for full-sized subs. What would be the rationale behind the Mini-Frax? In other words, why build them at all?

The only equivalent rationale I can think of is that they can operate within an atmosphere and land on a planets surface while cloaked.

(Hey, the whole race is totally hypothetical. Quit screaming!)

By Jonathan Perry (Jonathan_Perry) on Friday, December 20, 2002 - 10:06 am: Edit

Why build them at all? Same reason the Frax exist at all. Because they are way cool.

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Friday, December 20, 2002 - 10:14 am: Edit

Actually, I kinda like this idea... I may even make an SSD up...

Also, PFs can already link up with the tender while cloaked, be they Rom, Orion, or Frax...

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By Donovan A Willett (Ravenhull) on Friday, December 20, 2002 - 11:44 am: Edit

I was thinking that if the midgets are restricted to just opperating of Mother Subs and there are only two on a single mother, maybe a combined SSD would work for them.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, December 20, 2002 - 05:21 pm: Edit

It's probably best to create a submarine PFT.

Gives "wolf pack hunting" a new meaning...

By Donovan A Willett (Ravenhull) on Friday, December 20, 2002 - 07:51 pm: Edit

Flavor wise, I prefer the tender only lugging two or so. To be honest, the originals only carried one, but I figure two would make them a tad more usable.

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Friday, December 20, 2002 - 08:07 pm: Edit

OK... I worked on Sub-PF today, and found a good reason why ADB didn't make one (and there aren't any unofficial ones I can find...):

These guys are LONG. Too long for the standard PF SSD...

I'll finish up the designs and post them tonight or tomorrow.

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By Donovan A Willett (Ravenhull) on Friday, December 20, 2002 - 10:33 pm: Edit

You putting WBP's on it? I think this design might work without one, especially flavor wise.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Friday, December 20, 2002 - 11:34 pm: Edit

Cool. One of the most interesting ship desing proposals I've seen here in a long time.

Post thos subs!

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 07:22 am: Edit

Frax Submarine PF

There are two designs here. Same internals, but slightly different layout. When I made the initial ship, I preferred the shorter version, but when I integreated the design into the PF SSD, the longer one is more fitting.

Input is welcome, especially since it isn't truly my design.

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By Donovan A Willett (Ravenhull) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 08:18 am: Edit

Do you think two of the long ones and a tender (base SCL hull) could fit on one SSD?

And do you think the Missile variant would work better with one or two racks? I think one replacing both torpedos would keep the firepower from getting too crazy.

May I ask why the shuttle mech link?

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 08:27 am: Edit

I added the shuttle link to facilitate secret troop movements via GAS or shuttle (as mentioned in the first post).

I could probably make a 'squadron' style SSD for an SCL (or SCG) and two PFs.

A missile variant is possible (and expected).

I'll keep working.

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By Richard K. Glover (Fahrenheit) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 11:03 am: Edit

I think the rear phaser should be downgraded to a Ph-3. The Frax Frigate Sub has only 2 ph-1s, 2 axion torps, a drone rack, and an AFD.

Clearly, the AFD doesn't belong on an attrition unit. However, I think the rear phaser should more or less be a cheap AFG (read: ph-3), not a ph-1.

Maybe make it a 360° ph-3.

F°

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 12:26 pm: Edit

I kept the bottom phaser a P-1 because the ships only has 2 phasers. Fewer than any other PF (IIRC).

It might be possible to replace the TRAC with an ADD for the general Sub, making a variant (the Troop PF) for the shuttle.

Otherwise, here's a combined SSD:

Frax Light Submarine Cruiser and Midget Sub PFs

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By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 01:06 pm: Edit

Disruptors, and no chart?

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 01:09 pm: Edit

Richard K. Glover,

Hydran PFs have at least one P-G, Klingon PFs have at least one ADD. There's no reason the a mini-suB PF can't have an AFD.

Robert Cole,
Rom PFs tend to be weapons-light compared to other race's PFs. it's a constraint forced on them by the cloak. the same should apply to frax sub-PFs. With the AFD, plus two axon torps plus a missile rack (it IS a missile rack, not a drone rack, right?), I'd even suggest removing the RX P-1.

You might consider a wider, sausage-shaped SSD. Say one tht gives give 3 boxes of width? Maybe even 4. That might fit in a traditional PF sheet.

Why does the submarine cruiser have Disrs not axon torps?

For extra points, care to build an interceptor?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 01:20 pm: Edit

Robert Cole: I like the shorter version and was thinking you could make them even shorter by moving the L and R warp out side the hull line. I know it is Frax flavor to keep them in but in the case of the PF I think it's a fair exception.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 01:43 pm: Edit

...or at least move the WBPs out.

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 02:09 pm: Edit

Robert:

How about doing them up as a pair of ellipses, conjoined by a small connector between them -- similar in layout to a Lyran, but using nothing but curves to join them with?

I used something similar for a home-built race with cloaks and axions... If you'd like I can email you the SSDs from that race...

By Donovan A Willett (Ravenhull) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 02:24 pm: Edit

What does everyone think about the tender? Axion or disruptors?

No missle racks... to powerfull. Just my thoughts.

Maybe replace the Missle Racks with Battery and the Batteries with Repair.

By Henry Meyer (Henry2) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 05:04 pm: Edit

Robert, why not lose the boxes around the mini-subs and disregard standard PF layouts in favor of laying them across the 11" edge, with the tables on the upper half...

My printer only operates with 8 1/2" x 11".

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 06:25 pm: Edit

From the top:

Chris Fant: There is a disruptor chart, upper left hand.

John Trauger:
At this point the Midget has no AFD or missile rack. With only 2xP1, 2xAxions, 1xDrone it seems pretty lightly armed as is.

I did have a wider SSD, but I wanted to keep the ships at two boxes wide max as the FF-Sub is three boxes wide. I may draw a wider one, but no promises yet.

The Submarine Cruiser is an official ship and it has Disruptors.

Interceptor? Dunno... might try it.

Loren Knight: It's a thought, but even doing that, I don't think they would be short enough.

John Trauger: (They have no WBPs...)

Mike Dowd: I personally feel that making a Catamaran style design would ruin the effect of them being submarines. Just my opinion. If Donovan wants something like that, I can do it.

Henry Meyer: I can (and probably will) make an SSD of just the PFs, with only 3 on a page (similar to these Patrol Boats I designed) but Donovan wanted a group SSD.

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By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 06:29 pm: Edit

Donovan, email me and we can go over specs for a Midget tender.

Personally, I like the idea of a smaller ship. A cruiser (even a Sub) should be out doing big work. Send a cheap DD, something that isn't quite as expensive to use. (This is assuming you are sending the Tender / Midgets on a spy or infiltration mission.

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By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 07:09 pm: Edit

Robert: Those Patrol Ships are cool. Is that a new race you designed? Or should I recognise them?

Anyway, as I look at those, I saw something of a Hydran ship there. Unite the warp (move 1/4) with two more boxes (8 c-warp) and give it three fusions and three P-2 (replace armor) and two P-Gs. Good God those would be scarry!