We need to time-box what we are doing here. There are two schools of thought about what ‘X2’ is that has caused some confusion.

X2 to most means second generation X-tech and has spawned numerous topics.
X2 is also the likely name of the second X-tech module published.

These statements are not the same thing and hence create the confusion. Even though the GW ended, the ISC war came and went and the Galactic Powers fought the Andros for over a decade practically NO NEW HULLS were deployed during this period. A Major gap in the history of SF ship construction. Filling this gap could reasonably be called X2 the same way Y1 and Y2 function together in the same time period.

But we need to all be using the same terminology so I propose the following:

X0: GW era ships. Think Y175.
X1: Module X1.
X1-: Enhanced GW era ships that use some trickle down X1 tech but remain less powerful then true X1 ships.
X1+: Ships more powerful then X1 ships but not so powerful that they make X1- obsolete.
X2: A completely new set of hulls and technology that makes everything that came before obsolete.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Sunday, December 22, 2002 - 02:20 am: Edit

Now the timeline boundaries:

X1 tech never fully replaced production (R0.200). In fact there were very few X1 ships in a fleet. The reasons for this are unclear but popular explanations include their high cost, difficulty to repair, fickle bleeding edge technology and need to have the equivalent of an outstanding crew. Whatever the reason we can assume X1 made up approximately 10% of the fleet.

The MSC tells us practically no published ships enter production from Y185-204. That’s a 20-year gap waiting to be filled with X1- and X1+ tech.

The GW ends in Y186, the ISC invade Y186-188, the Andros invade Y188-202. Scenarios are already written for these events, most notably Operation Unity, and they use standard X0 and X1 tech. Radically increasing tech levels pre-Y200 will put the poor Andros at a severe disadvantage.

Second generation X-tech (X2) is clearly stated in X1 as beginning Y205. Little hint is given as to what X2 is except to state that it is not Supplement #2.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Sunday, December 22, 2002 - 03:23 am: Edit

I think X2 should be the next quantum leap in technology, and be brand new between Y203-Y205. This is where a lot of brainstorming is heading toward.

The X1- ships are probably a different module altogether. Varients to X1 technology. Even if X1 ships are fickle and need outstanding crews, there is a lot of room for a module of "one or two of these were built" type ships.

Also, the jump from X1 to X1- should eliminate the need for the outstanding crew. Perhaps write off the old X1 ships as "proved to be valuable, but were too finicky to be able to replace the X0 tech ships in the mass production schedule".

Maybe the old C1 rules could be used on the finicky, prototype X1 cruisers, while the CL23 rules are the X1- ships that were deemed to be mass-producable.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Sunday, December 22, 2002 - 02:17 pm: Edit

I haven't read any of these new X2 topics and for all I know you guys have already gone places I won't be going, but just for purposes of your conversation.

Assume that Module X2 is Second Generation X-Technology, new hulls and new gizmos. Could be improvements of the existing (probably still have phasers) but could be whole new things.

Module X1R might be considered a reinforcements package for the existing X1 and hence would just be more of what was in X1 and, I presume, not part of your conversation.

I won't be paying much attention to the X2 topics until some time in the future when X2 is scheduled. Then I'll survey them for ideas and see if you guys reached a consensus. Could save me a lot of work; might waste you a lot of effort. Time will tell.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, December 22, 2002 - 02:57 pm: Edit

Thanks Steve! That was helpful. At the least, this has been fun.

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Sunday, December 22, 2002 - 08:16 pm: Edit

The production gap between Y185-204 isn't a problem, IMHO. Consider the post-WWII period; the US couldn't dispose of the wartime-built ships fast enough, and there were no innovative ship designs until the 1960's -- and some of those were converted WWII hulls.

Post-General War, I think that all the war-class hulls (CW, DW, NCA, etc) go into mothballs within a few years (just like the old Fed and Klingon hulls did 80-100 years earlier). Some of the bigger hulls get partial upgrades to X1- status, and the remainder of the fleet "soldiers on" while the engineers figure out how to make X-technology work.

There will be a few X1+ class hulls built, like the old 1950's Mitscher-class DLs. But they will be experiments, including some new weapons, and probably not too successful in any respect.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, December 22, 2002 - 09:25 pm: Edit

I would imagin that just after the victory over the Andomedans during the short era of peace, there would be a LOT of personel leaving the verious Fleets and the Feds would be hit the hardest. There would be enough crew that wanted to make long term careers in the military but there would be a lot who would be just sick of the death and desruction and those who just have their nerves shot. The Klingons would probably be affected by this the least as they have subjects. The rest of the races would be some where in the middle between the Klingons and the Fed/Gorns. Well, the Hydrans would be second to the Fed/Gorns.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, December 22, 2002 - 10:01 pm: Edit

The difference between the post-andro War and WW II is that WW II only lasted 5 years. We're talking something like 30 years at war. Economies are exhausted and spent.

There probably *aren't* huge amounts of spare hulls or spare people because a lot have simply gotten killed.

By Jonathan McDermott (Caraig) on Sunday, December 22, 2002 - 10:03 pm: Edit

Something to note. If I Recall Correctly, as it stands now Y210 is The Year We Make Contact... with the Xorkaelians, specifically. SVC might change this as he sees fit, however, so this should probably be taken as a 'firm' consideration rather than 'hard.' The Galactic Powers won't, of course, be taking it into consideration when they make their ship designs, but we should remember that there will, at some point, be a baddie out there that can hop, skip, and jump accross the galaxy.

Of course, since we don't really KNOW what the Xorkaelian's capabilities are, the point is, I suppose, moot. =)

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Sunday, December 22, 2002 - 10:58 pm: Edit

"Consider the post-WWII period"
You mean the period where we were somewhere between peace and fighting various low intensity ground wars?

Somehow I would think the enforced blockade of the ISC and the major effort by the Andros to assimilate the entire Alpha Quadrant is kinda apples and oranges to your point.

By Dave Morse (Dcm) on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 12:38 am: Edit

Sorry for the off topic post, but have there historically ever been any 25+ year, high-intensity wars? Perhaps in the middle ages or roman campaigns? What was the economic situation then?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 07:49 am: Edit

Doesn't that really depend on what you count as a war!?!


I'm sure the main Napolionic wars and the Peninusla war were considered to be ONE GIANT WAR by Napolian himself.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 08:50 am: Edit

Other than the period of the ISC pacification there was almost constant warfare. From the end of the GW to Op Unity. And during the pacification program warship production reached all time highs IIRC.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 01:04 pm: Edit

You know, it funny, but I just realised that X2 ships will likely not be fighting each other much. The Galaxy may well be unified again against the Xorks. Unless...the Xorks gain allies on this side of the Galixy! Ooooh man, I'm starting to get real curious about the Xorkellians.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 01:09 pm: Edit

Also, I'm starting to see that X2 is going to be mush bigger than just X2. It's time line will see the Trade Wars and the Xork invasion. X1A will start this out but over all we are looking at a interleaving of at least three modules.

X2 will be affected greatly by X1A, I think.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 05:54 pm: Edit

The original X1 ships were restricted to 10% because of the need to put an outstanding crew on board. What year does this get lifted?

Perhaps the old X1 ships (OL phasers) were considered failed prototypes because of the need for an outstanding crew. One or two might still exist, but not in any numbers.

Y181-187 The new X1 ships (CL 23) could be adjusted so as not to need the outstanding crew requirement. At that point, each new X1 ship class that's developed replaces the X0 ship on the production schedule. These ship classes form "Module X1R, the Andromedan Wars".

Y188-202 During the Andy Wars, the galactic scientists learned some ways of dealing with Andromedans. This leads to a series of refits for the X1R ships between Y195-200 (which can be included in Module X1R), as well as the building of the Kzinti SSCS in Y196.

Y203-205 A series of breakthroughs lead to the creation of the X2 technology, and the first prototype X2 cruiser is built. These prototypes form "Module X2, Second Generation Advanced Ships". These ships are highly advanced, optimized to fight Andromedans, and be built in the same shipyards that produce X0 and X1 ships.

Y205 - Andromedan War ends.

The galaxy is at peace for the first time in nearly half a century.

The X0 ships (that survived the Andys) are becoming obselete in a galaxy where X1R and X2 are the mainline ships. They are sold/scrapped to help the economically exhausted empires.

The DNs/CVAs/SCSs prove too costly to maintain, but dangerous enough that the empires don't want them to be sold to pirates, so they are scrapped/mothballed (most of them anyway....)

During this period of peace, it falls back to the DDs and FFs to maintain the peace, patrol for pirates, protect shipping, etc.

The CAs role during this period of peace becomes "local enforcement". If the pirates start getting too big for a DD or FF to handle, call in a heavy cruiser.

Only now, those CAs, DDs, and FFs are much more advanced than they were in Y165.

And then the Xorks arrive...

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 06:12 pm: Edit

I bring this up because a lot of the discussion has been on how to optimize CXXs of various races to fight each other. But, in the historical context, wouldn't all of the races' X2 technology be optimized to fighting Andromedans?

By Aaron M. Staley (Aaron_Staley) on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 06:12 pm: Edit

I for one would REALLY like to know when the Organians are scheduled to disappear again.
(maybe Y215?) (Evil Grin)

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 07:20 pm: Edit

Not when the andros just got beaten.

Well, not JUST the andros. Any race that opimizes their ships to fight the andros and doesn't also opitmize them to fight their neighbors is asking to lose territory.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 08:39 pm: Edit

Not optimised to fight each other but optimised from ALL the lessons from the last 30 years of war.

And the Xorks are comming. Lets just hope their ships aren't cubical!

Aaaak, sorry about that.

In regards to crew. How about creating a new class between Poor and Good called Green Crew. This would take about six months (One F&E turn) to shake down the crew and reclassify them a Good.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 09:59 pm: Edit

The problem with lifting the Outstanding Crew limitation on X1 is that the galactics are already way more powerful than the Andros in fleets. Allowing unrestricted X1 builds would make the Andro invasion a non-event.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 10:41 pm: Edit

...but X1 will eventually become the standard for new construction.

This just happens after the Andro war is over.

By Aaron M. Staley (Aaron_Staley) on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 10:54 pm: Edit

When Does economic exhaustion begin to occur again? That's probably the reason why not many x builds were done. Plus the ISC/Andro invasions put a big strain on all the economies.
Of course, I may be non-educated on that.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 11:46 pm: Edit

Actually most of the galactics were at exhaustion in Y180-182 when the ISC Pacification program hit.

The way I understand it, the ISC give the galactics enough of a breather to get their butts back in gear for the Andros.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 11:48 pm: Edit

Tos,

The galactics may be able to field a stronger fleet than the Andys, but the Andys achieved their dominance on a strategic level.

When you have the RTN, and a decent fleet strength, you can hit your enemy everywhere that his main fleet isn't.