Archive through March 01, 2011
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board:
The "X" Files:
OLD X2 FOLDER:
X2 photons:
Archive through March 01, 2011
MJC and Jeff,
Please play nice. That means you may not poke each other with sharp sticks or barbed words.
MJC, you have been asked politely to not hijack the thread. I am sure you won't try to do so.
Guys, the boss is off on a real vacation and a second honeymoon with his lady wife. Please, make a special effort to be courteous to each other so that he doesn't get extra stress or have any regrets about not monitoring the BBS as he travels.
Thanks for your cooperation,
Jean
Everyone needs to read their own posts and consider any unintended tones before posting. No matter how much you disagree there is no reason not to treat one another with respect and good manners.
And, yes, that applies to me as well. I know I am not perfect either, but all of us need to make the effort to be cordial to one another.
It does not take that much effort to post a polite rebuttal, and there is zero reason for anyone in this topic to take a hostile tone towards anyone else.
Sorry if I came across as too negative.
Jeff can email me if he likes as to my beef with him or not as he pleases.
As to L.K.'s the proposal.
The thing about a Photon is chaos. It's as mad as a cut snake!
One of the few threats the Photon chucker really has is that it might get a jack-pot and therefore you'ld better think twice about just waltzing into overload range.
Dividing up the damage to have seperate die rolls reduces the threat value.
Consider Four overloaded UIM diruptors at R8.
They have a one in 1296 chance of getting nothing and a 625 in 1296 chance of getting a jack-pot of 24 and an average of 20.
Four Photons armed to deliver four 3 point warheads each at R8 would have a one in 65,536 chance of getting a jack pot of 48 damage and a one in 65,536 chance of getting nothing and an average of 24.
So for the price of getting an average of 4 points more damage, the MW Photons have paid warp for the privelage and fire every other turn.
These Photons are in effect second rate Disruptors gaining consistancy in damage at the cost of having no threat of the possibility of a Jack-pot.
Now if this were put forawrd with a 4 point mini-warhead as the maximum limit (for the four miniwarheads) and put forward as an improvement for GW Photons in say Y195 as a weapon to try to get some damage against EM using Andros...in the hope that the Andros would quit EM and fight like warships...well I could see an advantage but as a system for being an improved X2 Photon, I don't really see it comming to pass. X1 Photons are a better choice.
MJC, no where in my proposal did I say that the regular photon was no available. The Multi-warhead photon is a firing option. It is of little tactical use in a typical duel. It takes NOTHING away from normal photon use.
You don't have to explain to us the value or use of the photon. As the oldest weapon in the game besides the disruptor it is pretty well understood.
I'm afraid you are somehow completely missing the point of the proposal.
Quote:Operation: The MWP loads as a standard photon does; two warp energy on two turns. An MWP can also be over loaded but at reduced maximums. An MWP much be commited to and noted at the first turns loading. The proximity function maybe decided on the second turn (given no overload energy had been applied on the first). To switch to a standard photon the MWP must be aborted and a new photon maybe started. This occures during energy allocation only.
How does one come to an understanding of anything other than a regular photon isn't avaible ( without a massive penalty for changing one's mind and starting with something different) with these statements.
Guru L.K., what are you aiming for? Knowing that will help the proposal be understood better.
MJC, its really not that much different than being unable to downgrade an overloaded photon.
If you view the MWP as you do an overloaded photon (where the decision to put 2.5 or more points of energy into a tube on the first turn to begin the OL process) then its essentially no different with the MWP. You've committed to a non-reversable act. To change your mind, you have to dump the torp and start anew.
The regular photon isn't available if you have OL's in the tube. There is no difference. You still have to dump the OL to begin charging the standard or prox or even an MWP.
On an aside . . .
Frankly, if this proposal winds up not be workable in the Alpha sector, maybe the FRA of Omega might have developed this on their own.
MJC: The aim is in the proposal.
I'm sorry but it sounded like you thought my proposal was for a new weapon and not a mode for the old one.
You said:
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well I could see an advantage but as a system for being an improved X2 Photon, I don't really see it comming to pass. X1 Photons are a better choice.
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This really doesn't apply to my proposal at all. It implies that other modes aren't available. This would be an ability on top of whatever the X2 photon is.
Personally I think the X2 photon should begin as an X1 with some added modes of fire. I am absolutly against 24 point OL, BTW. IT's been discussed to death and I've not seen a single convincing post to change my mind in ALL these years. I do NOT want to see X2 be a wholesale damage output increase module. There is no point in ADDING protection via shields and an ASIF if it is just simply countered by larger weapons. All you are doing then is playing with bigger numbers.
But X2 needs to be different. Simply making X2 be "Times Two" isn't the answer so I introduced another line of thought; a new firing mode of some tactical use (that is NOT useful in every situation but in some situations). The basics of the photon remain unchanged.
Thanks Glen. Well put.
Guru L.K.:
Sorry my thinking was that this was the thing to improve an X2 Photon over an X1 Photon (not one of several) such that the X2 photon is better on account of this ability and this ability alone. Perhaps I was in error in thinking this way.
I think it might be easier to change Photons without using multiple mini-warheads and a lot of rules therein. Perhaps Proxies at range 2-8 as well as regular ranges or perhaps removing Photons from the FD1.52 list.
As to bigger being more fun. If it's the one weapon (or one of a small number) that goes down that path then it could be fun (e.g. if Hellbores get the "shaped head" idea and can apply full damage in DF mode then that would be better without being simply bigger numbers).
Giving other races more flexibility and the Photon more crunch might well be a fun situation. Crunch-power becomes the Fed's "gizmo".
It's not a very big or complex rule and would add to existing rule, not replace anything.
I had considered removing the submunitions from that list butthen I'm thinking about the overall picture. Why do that? X2 should see less drones with less attrition units and it would start to turn photons into a drone defense weapon. That makes no sense. Sure you can use them and you would be able to use the MWP against them but I'd rather not specifically turn the photon into a drone defense. So I left the penalty in place. This is not specifically intended as a drone defense.
The primary tactical intent is a carronade like system for photons. It might have other non-combat uses but those don't apply to SFB proper. Maybe it could be added to the solutions list to kill a monster.
Unfortunately I don't have R10 (something I am trying to rectify) so Corrinade doesn't automatic convey the tactical meaning to me that you seem to assume it must.
That being said, I too would like to see fewer attrition units but I also see that some races ( the Kzinti and the Hydrans ) are going to be stuck with them lest they forgo their gizmos.
I agree that there's a certain wrongness to using the Photon as a drone defense weapon...mostlty because "swing weapons" are suppossed to do that role...but also because trying to fight through drone mailstrums for multiple turns using every weapon you have and then having the ability to pound the enemy only when he reloads doesn't seem like it'll be a fun game to play every time one plays.
At any rate, if a Photon shot-gun of some sorts, allows for more flexibility then I'm fine.
Personnally I find the threat of 6 Disruptors on a cruiser so great (these X2 cruisers must be able to at-least hold their own against X1 cruisers) some kind of amped up photon ( even if we just allow fastloads to go all the way to 16 pointers) is needed. Those Darn DXs are hurling out 30 damage at R8 every time they get to overload range...perhaps upping the accuracy of the Photon would help?
But building a Photon shotgun that doesn't even keep pace with an X1 Photon makes me uneasy.
Perhap if the MWPhoton had her four min-warheads overloaed to 3 points each BUT was loaded in one turn; you'ld get the same damage output as an X1 Photon fastloading 12 pointers but with the added flexibility inherent in being able to deliver a more consistant spray.
Still I'm not convinced that added flexibility of trading in jack-pot for conistancy is going to hold it's own when Disruptors are likely to get added flexibility (through Disruptor Capasitors) that doesn't actually have a con' to counter balance the pro'.
MJC,
first what are you thinking man. R10 has actual rules in it (besides lots of ships) so save up your duckets and get it already. Sheesh. 
The Plasma Carronade is a firing option for the Pl-F that does very little damge but will hit a cloaked chip if that ship is within range. It has some other tactical uses but the primary use is to locate cloaked ships and do some small amount of damage.
The intent behind the MWP is them to increase the odds of doing some damage, any amount meets the requirement.
This is why I also proposed the Mid-Turn Breaking (which there is a similar proposal in P6 I guess). With the Plasma Carronade and an MWP it is fair to ask what Romulans get to counter this cloak counter. So I figured maneuverability. All races would get it but the Romulans would have a unique use in that if they are located via Plasma Carronade or MWP they can put on the breaks to cause a change on the cloak table and likely break any lock-on that might have been gained.
The overall result is a move-counter move situation that adds to the richness of the tactical situation. I.e., more fun.
Quote:The Plasma Carronade is a firing option for the Pl-F that does very little damge but will hit a cloaked chip if that ship is within range. It has some other tactical uses but the primary use is to locate cloaked ships and do some small amount of damage.
Are you proposing that the "photon-shotgun" can "flash-cube" a cloaked vessel?...if so; wow.
Loren, I think this is a WONDERFUL idea!
More options without more damage.
Got any more bright ideas?
I eagerly await.
Steven Hawking theorised that all the things in the universe were made from four sub-quanta particles. The arrangement of which would determine if the quanta unit was one of the three physical dimenions, time, energy or matter.
Since matter is a "higher order state" than energy, the subqanta particles "want" to become energy and thus when the sub-quanta particles are re-arranged from matter to energy such as in fission or radio active decay) we can get a continuously sustained reaction.
In this way no sub-quanta particales are destroyed or created, we just find themselves resolving themselves into "lower order" combinations.
This further explains why the universe is not just expanding but accellerting because matter is decomposing into the three physical dimensions.
I thought Guru L.K. would enjoy the chance to consider a low energy photon option rather than a hugmungous photon option.
Low Energy Sub-Quanta Torpedo
Arming.
The Sub-Quanta Torpedo is armed with warp power over two turns or in one turn if fastloaded. The minimum power to arm is 2 points being either 2 points on one turn or one point on each of two turns. The power to arm must be warp power.
The sub-quanta torpedo has a warhead that inflicts damage equal to tripple the amount of warp energy placed in the torpedo (drop any fractions of a point of damage).
No more than 5 points of warp power may be used to arm the sub-quanta torpedo.
If Fastloaded, the torpedo may not fire beyond range 15.
Upto 4 points of warp power may be used to arm a sub-quanta torpedo without the weapon being considered an overload. If overloaded the maximum range is 8.
A sub-quanta torpedo my be held at a cost of one point of power (any kind) per turn, irrespective of the level of arming. A more powerful warhead may be armed whilst holding but the holding energy does not increase the warhead strength, only the additional warp energy beyond holding shall do that.
A sub-quanta torpedo may be set to fire in proximity mode. The mode grants a +1 bonus like conventional proxy mode fire and can fire starting at range 3 all the way out to the maximum distance of the warhead. The choice to arm as a proxy (or remove the proxy setting) may be selected with the addition of any (greater than 0.25 points) warp power to arm the sub-quanta torpedo or with holding energy during the turn break.
The damage inflicted by the proxy warhead will be two thirds the warhead strength (drop any fractions) for each warhead fired in this mode.
Also the weapon could be fired in a vacinity mode which grants a +2 bonus and inflicts one third of the regular warhead damage (round fractiosn down) for each warhead fired in this mode.
Proximity and Vacinity warheads are recorded as such with a P or a V (respectively) in the energy allocation form, next to the record of the arming energy spent for the torpedo.
Firing.
The sub-quanta torpedo is limited to varrious ranges based on the "weight" of the warhead. Thus the chance to hit shall be listed as follows.
| Warhead | R0-1 | R2 | R3-4 | R5-8 | R9-12 | R13-30 | R31-40 | R41-50 |
| 6 pointer | 1-6 | 1-5 | 1-4 | 1-3 | 1-2 | 1 | Na | Na |
| 7 pointer | 1-6 | 1-5 | 1-4 | 1-3 | 1-2 | 1 | 1 | Na |
| 8-10 pointer | 1-6 | 1-5 | 1-4 | 1-3 | 1-2 | 1 | 1 | 1 |
| 11 pointer | 1-6 | 1-5 | 1-4 | 1-3 | 1-2 | 1 | 1 | Na |
| 12 pointer | 1-6 | 1-5 | 1-4 | 1-3 | 1-2 | 1 | Na | Na |
| 13-15 pointer | 1-6 | 1-5 | 1-4 | 1-3 | Na | Na | Na | Na |
A sub-quanta torpedo never suffers from feedback.
All levels of arming can fire in R0-1 range bracket.
Damage.
When the Sub-quanta torpedo strikes the surface of a shield or ship, the energy added through the reaction of anti-matter and matter shall need to dissipate itself through high end states becomming low end states (ie, matter and energy becoming time and the three physical dimensions) and thus huge chuncks of ship struck by this weapon will tend to fly off.
The damage inflicted is equal to three times the warp power used to arm the sub-quanta torpedoe (round fractions down).
Since the Disruptors of Klingon DX will generate 30 points of damage every turn at R8 and 60 points of damage every turn at R0 and this weapon (assuming 4 on a Fed XCA) will generate 30 points of damage at R8 and 60 points of damage at R0, I feel that it would be able to stand up in the enviroment in which it is being sent...but I still think humoungous torpedoes feel right for the Feds. They love peace partly because they know just how devistating their weapons are.
ROFLMAO
You can't buy entertainment like this.
*gets more popcorn*
Ahhh....The joys of a game that invokes "super-science" whenever it wants to.
In thinking about X photons... I was struck by a thought...
"What if..." we have been looking at the photons incorrectly?
I mean, many of the proposed solutions have focused on increased damage levels or improved targeting accuracy based on improved Fire control solutions using scanners and sensors.
It just might be that there is no need for improved fire control solutions if the data the existing targeting is already accurate to a high degree (say 99.99+%).
What if the inaccuracy of the Photon torpedo is due to instability of the warhead during its "flight time" from the launching ship to the target hex?
I'm not talking about changing Star Fleet History or the basic design of the Photon torpedo at this point... what if the inaccuracy was the result of a conscious decision by the Naval Architechs and Star Fleet Engineers back during the initial design phase of the Phton (back before the first Federation ships were armed with Photons in the early years)...
For example, The Fed vanilla CA (YIS 130 IIRC) had 4 photon torpedo launchers with FA firing arcs. (Generally FA=LF + RF)
I'm wondering if the original designers had a trade off decision... say they could accept a smaller firing arc but better accuracy or wider firing arcs and less accuracy.
The problem would be one of the Laws of Physics... not accuracy of ones fire control solution.
Lets say, (for arguments sake) that the existing Photon tube design (represented on the SSD by 1 SSD box for each torpedo launcher) is a compromise in some way... that in order to achieve a wider firing arc selection (helpful as anyone who had consciously tried to line up an opposing ship on a Fed CA's centerline so that all bearing weapons could have the same firing opportunity in an alpha strike) some longer range accuracy was sacrificed.
What could account for such a choice?
Well, (to offer one possible solution) what if the in flight portion of the photon warhead to target resembled a projectile rather than a coherent beam of energy?
That would make an analogy to a short barreled hand gun (such as a saturday night special or a deringer "pocket gun" or even a sawed off shotgun (say very short, 6 or 8 inches instead of the longer 36 or 48 inch length of a hunting shot gun (I'm guessing at the lengths, so I appologize if I estimated incorredtly).
That assumption in the ability of the photon torpedo to "train on target" which resulted in the original wide angle firing arcs was "purchased" (in a sense) at the cost of better accuracy in the medium and long ranges possible to the photon torpedos.
In the early years, such a trade off was reasonable given the short ranges possible for the existing phaser 2s in use by most races in the alpha quadrant. once star ships closed to within phaser 2 range (typically at 4 hexes or greater, phaser 2's miss hitting the target about 1/2 the time or worse as the range increases... while at range 3 or less, phaser 2's normally always hit for damage (assuming no effects for EW or other modifications to the weapons tables).
If my conjecture has any validity, then the way to improve the photons inaccuracy issues might be resolved by reducing the firing arcs available and "lengthening the barrel length".
specific example to follow:
comments?
Technobauble theory#1.
the exsting photon torpedo launcher (represented on the SSD sheet) is a single tube/launcher system located in a single room (compartment) of a starship.
Lets guess that such a single room might be 10 meters square, and be staffed by the photon "torpedo" crew (perhaps as many as 10 individuals?!?).
Lets further estimate that the loading chamber has a specific size that would allow the crew to change (in relative short periods of time during a game turn, say) the settings as standard, proximity or even (if warp energy were availble) overloaded photons.
the easiest assumption to make is that the "tube aperture" where the Photon torpedo is launched through corresponds to the FA firing arch (call it a "wide angle" aperture.
Lets further assume (for purposes of argument) that the length of such an aperture is no more (and possibly less than) the length of the loading chamber.
This would equate (in gunnery terms) to a single caliber. (the width is equal to the tubes diameter.
Just to pick a number (seemingly at random) lets say the diameter of a photon torpedo launch chamber is 12 inches. (a common diameter of a battleship main gun from the real world prior to WW1).
If this description matches the particulars of the existing phtons... lets compare it to a possible Photon (mark II) (to differentiate it from the original type).
Lets say that the Mark II photon launcher facility has the photon loading chamber well inside the room (7.5 meters from the apperture) instead of flush mounted as in the photon Mark I design.
this would lengthen the "barrel" of the photon tube from say 12 inches to about 288 inches, or a 24 cal 12 inch photon torpedo.
such a change might reduce the firing arc of the phton to LF or RF only...(not FA any longer) but would improve the ballistics of the photon round in terms of stability.
A comparison of Photon torpedo weapons charts(MKI vs MKII):
| RANGE | 0-1 | 2 | 3-4 | 5-8 | 9-12 | 13-30 |
| Photon Mark I: |
| Hit-STD | NA | 1-5 | 1-4 | 1-3 | 1-2 | 1 |
| HIT-Prox | NA | NA | NA | NA | 1-4 | 1-3 |
| HIT-OVERLOAD | 1-6 | 1-5 | 1-4 | 1-3 | NA | NA |
| RANGE | 0-1 | 2-3 | 4-8 | 9-18 | 19-38 | 39-60 |
| Photon | Mark II: |
| Hit-STD | NA | 1-5 | 1-4 | 1-3 | 1-2 | 1 |
| HIT-Prox | NA | NA | NA | NA | 1-4 | 1-3 |
| HIT-OVERLOAD | 1-6 | 1-5 | 1-4 | 1-3 | NA | NA |
Damage (both marks generate same damage at differnt ranges)
| RANGE Column | A | B | C | D | E | F |
| DAMAGE-STD | NA | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 8 |
| DAMAGE-PROX | NA | NA | NA | NA | 4 | 4 |
| DAMAGE-OVERLOADS | VAR | VAR | VAR | VAR | NA | NA |
I offer this suggestion to restart the discussion.
Obviously, the proposal as stated has problems(for example the MKII being able to hit with Overloaded photons out to range 18 heses!)
but It is an illustration of the kind of paradign shift Im talking about in how we handle the Photon torpedo issues.
Obviously, the same kind of instability that afflicted the photons could infact be present int he Disrupters used by klingons and other races...
the solution might be the same, by lengthening the "barrel" of the disrupters, improved accuracy could result... but only at the cost of reduced firing arcs.
comments?
Extending OL range is a non-starter, so that's easy.
...so you're proposing an x2 photon with accuracy like a disruptor before UIM and DERFACS.
The photon can handle being more accurate, but bear in mind these ships get a +1 to hit if they have an ECCM "shift" so you have a photon that in some circumstances has a 1-5 at 8 hexes. That's pretty scary.
You start to erase the differences between a disruptor and a photon.
A quick story. A cutionary tale, if you will.
A question that has to be asked is what happens to the disruptor to match the inreased-accuracy photon? Disruptors can't get more accurate without extending the range at which they hit for 1-6, which does not make for interesting gameplay.
Commander's X2 solved this problem by increasing disruptor damage. they gave disruptors a "double-overload" option. (an extra 2 pts of power added a disruptor-worth of extra damage)
With photons more accurate and disruptors more powerful, the differences between the two weapons were effectively erased. Worse, their roles somewhat reversed.
IIRC both weapons could fire full overloads every round, but with Klingons and Lyrans (kzinti? tholians? I forget), running 6 disruptors per cruiser, they had the ability to pump out as great or greater HW damage than a federation ship could with its 4 photons. It took more energy, yes, but with 50 warp per XCA, it was doable.
This is why we haven't played with the to-hit tables.
Ah, well...it seemed like it could have worked.
back to the old drawing board!
A new ability for X2Photon Torpedos...
High Yeild Explosive Warhead
Uses a standard energy cost (lets assume, that the standard 8 point photon torpedo in X2 still costs 2+2 warp energy points...) the photon is fired for effect into a single tactical hex (range could be 2 to 30 hexes), using the standard to hit chart.
the difference is that every object in the hex takes 1 point of damage if the die roll is successful (misses still miss).
that means the X2Photon torpedos be come exceptionally accurate against multiple targets (super stacked drones, shuttles, fighters, bombers, PFs etc) but that the damage yeild verses ships is far less effective than even proximity photons.
Some things would still be immune to the high yeild explosive photon warheads... such as all types of mines (NSM and transporter bombs), planets, most terrain features except asteroid, dust. (but still, at only 1 point per photon, even phasers would be more effective than the high yeild photon warheads...)
This ability would be only marginally effective against starships (and X2 starships) but would be devastating against attrition units.
Can plasmas and drones get that ability?
They will want them.
Could be the end of superstack in X2.
In response to Jeff Wile's idea that "the trade off, in early Federation photon design, was accuracy vs firing arc width."
If that's the case, then one way to "improve the photon" without increasing the accuracy ... is to widen the firing arc. Maybe an X2 photon has a 180 degree arc.
Though, my idea, a bunch of years back, was that the Federation took what they learned from Gorn Plasmas, and maybe from Disruptors (that they could have gotten from the Kzinti) was a new type of flexible torpedoe. It may have been a joint research project with at least the Gorn and Feds, and maybe the Kzinti. Dunno if the Hydrans would be interested or not (probably not). It works as follows:
Arm for 2 points in 1 turn: fires like a X1 disruptor
Arm for 2 points x 2 turns: fires like an X1 photon (regular vs proximity choice made at firing time).
Arm for 2 points x 3 turns: fires like a plasma torp (G?) or holds for firing as an X1 photon (so, on round 3 or later, you can fire it like a plasma OR a photon, making the decision as you fire).
Arm for 2 points on or after the 4th turn: holding cost.
Overload: any excess power allocated can be used toward overload or enveloping (decision made at firing time, when you decide) or maybe to upgrade it to a stronger plasma at firing time (on or after the 3rd turn).
I actually like Jeff Wile's idea. Attacks that detonate to damage everything in a given hex and can be fired as direct weapons WILL end the superstack problem. Wouldn't be effective on Drones (because let's face it, the Superstack was designed first as drone defense) but a Sabot Plasma that detonated for that effect would also be cool.