Maybe we could get Tos to pitch the idea to the powers that be!

But really, don't you think overloading probes is just a teensy little bit over the top?!?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, March 29, 2011 - 12:50 pm: Edit

It fits the same general catagory as drone upgrades IMO.

No, not really. Drone upgrades cost significant BPV and monsters have MCIDS.

If you charge extra BPV for advanced probes then it will be easier to balance but will be yet another thing to list. It may also be that the value vs monster will be greater than vs ship. maybe not. I'm not sure.

All ships, after a certain year, get advnaced shuttle but the increase in value vs monsters is insignificant. A R12 probe would be significantly more useful vs monsters.

By Mike Kenyon (Mikek) on Tuesday, March 29, 2011 - 01:36 pm: Edit

No, I think it's WAY over the top.
.... but it made me smile.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, April 04, 2011 - 06:31 pm: Edit

Loren posted:

"...A R12 probe would be significantly more useful vs monsters."


Yes, they would be. And for that the advanced probe rounds (lets keep the same terminology we used before, and call it a class 2 probe) should cost more in BPVs... and that is why I was suggesting that the advanced probes be handled like drone upgrades were handled.

All ships that come equipped with probe launchers normally have type 1 (normal) probes. to upgrade them to the advanced (extended range)type 2 probes, should cost X BPV commanders options points.

One possible benefit to this approach, is if anyone ever thinks of a new type of probe, it could follow the same terminology... and call it a "type 3 probe".

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, April 04, 2011 - 06:37 pm: Edit

Oh, and one other complicating thought, if the idea of COs probes is too daunting, what if the type 2 (extended range 12) probes traded part of the instrument package for more room to carry fuel (or what ever it is that allows the probes to move away from the launching ship)?

If a type 1 probe provides 20 lab points in a certain situation, the type 2 probe provides half the lab points of a type 1, but can do it from farther away from the ship that launched it.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, April 04, 2011 - 07:54 pm: Edit

Yeah, I think that could work as self balancing.

I like it. It becomes a tactical decision.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, April 04, 2011 - 09:43 pm: Edit

Ok, then lets restate the proposal and see if anyone else has a comment to share.

Advanced Probes.

Rename the original probe as published in the basic set as "probe type 1" and offer an advanced "probe type 2" that has double the range of a type 1 probe, but half of the data collecting ability.

Now, there were several comments made about altering the combat abilty of probes. to summarize one such idea:

Allow the type 2 probe (range 12) the abilty to be used as an emergency weapon, along the same lines as a type 1 probe can be used.

there should be some balancing here, for example, if the type 2 probe has a range of 12, perhaps the warhead of the type 2 emergency weapon probe should be also half that of a type 1 (that is to say max of 4 damage points, but the same arming cost in time and energy. accuracy would be the same as that of of the type 2 probe as described above.

What other ideas that have been mentioned should be incorporated in the proposal?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, April 04, 2011 - 11:33 pm: Edit

I would say that either when armed as a weapon it reverts to a standard probe (R6) OR it also has half the warhead capacity.
Roll two dice equal or over the range to hit so R0 to R 2 is auto hit. R12 only hits on a roll of 12. This makes R6, R7, and R8 good odds to hit.

Half the info, half the warhead (using half the energy is OK with me), twice the range.

Intro date post GW.

A neat deal might be the ability to orbit a target (generally only useful when scanning a planet). Or give it the ability to trace any path making up to one 60 degree turn per hex in the path. You can divid the info gained along the path starting at any point in the path.

So you could launch an advanced probe toward a planet from R6 and plot its path to orbit the planet, dividing the info scanning the planet. This might give you a look at what bases and such are on the planet surface. This might require additional rules to define how many points is required to I.D. bases of different sizes or units on the ground.

By George Duffy (Sentinal) on Tuesday, April 05, 2011 - 03:04 am: Edit

Loren said:

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Quote:

So you could launch an advanced probe toward a planet from R6 and plot its path to orbit the planet, dividing the info scanning the planet. This might give you a look at what bases and such are on the planet surface. This might require additional rules to define how many points is required to I.D. bases of different sizes or units on the ground.

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By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, April 05, 2011 - 08:38 am: Edit

George,

I believe Loren means that the advanced probe would be deployed as a direct fire type device, and from that point would orbit a planet using normal operational movement. (just guessing, Loren would have to confirm or not).

The problem I see with Loren's suggestion, is that orbital movement by any unit without warp speed ability is slow.

that means impulse / sublight speed of (at most) 1 hex per turn.

Is it an important abilty for the advanced probe to have, and is it worth the added complexity that it would bring to the rules set?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, April 05, 2011 - 10:44 am: Edit

I meant that it would still do that in one impulse. I don't see why it couldn't just because there isn't another device that already can. Of course, that's a designer decision. Having it slow to normal movement would make it all too complex and a hassel. It would have to be in one shot. Naturally, this would not be allowed when fired as a weapon.

Maybe just let probe drones do this? (launched into orbiting a planet)

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, April 05, 2011 - 11:36 am: Edit

Ya, in a lot of ways probe drones are superior to normal probes, and the abilty to move and conduct science missions is a big benefit.

in the future (unmentioned) Armageddon rules set (the one that comes after doomsday) perhaps we should petition that all races get a drone A rack loaded only with probe drones in lieu of a probe launcher. that way the probe rules could be dispensed with... that way all races could have a standardized basic probe drone system that could get speed upgrades at the same times the drone races get them, but the non drone using races still have the same basic probe system as every other (probe using) race in the game.

Yeah, I could see that happening.

Sure, you betcha!

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, April 05, 2011 - 01:13 pm: Edit

Maybe the advanced probe could be a probe that opperates in all ways like a probe drone (speed 32). When used as a weapon it IS a drone with a AM warhead (charged like a a standard probe), except the warhead pops after six impulses (limiting the range to six).

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, April 05, 2011 - 04:58 pm: Edit

Loren,

That takes us to the point where there is little functional difference between a probe launcher and a drone rack... my hunch is that the two systems are not interchangeable.

Not sure where the steves are on this question, but I just don't see any chance of converting probe launchers into probe drone launchers for fear of tech sloshing.

(I can hear the plaintative cries pitieously begging SPP to allow the plasma races to buy drones with their commanders options points on the theory that the new prod/drone launchers could also handle ECM drones.)

Lets just say I expect a negative response.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, April 05, 2011 - 06:23 pm: Edit

No, I'm saying that while the advanced probe behaves like a probe drone (note, not like a drone... there is a difference) and would have some further capabilities like being able to orbit a target(minimum R1) it is not a drone and does not mean a probe can launch drones. A probe launcher can launch probes and advanced probes and never a drone of any type.

I don't see a conflict.

I did just now have another idea. A Probe mine. Now, it couldn't be hidden but it would sit there producing data on anything it is near to the target ship.

Futher, there might be a way to make it passive and produce limited info similar to what a ship on passive fire control can see. Such data would have to be retreved which would make it not hidden. I see an interesting use for such a thing around a base an/or planet.

Maybe this is what the hatch on starships is really for (the one you roll small mines out of).

Maybe call it a data mine?

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Tuesday, April 05, 2011 - 07:19 pm: Edit

Don't probe drones make probe launchers obsolete?

Except for monster scenarios where you need an overloaded probe to kill the monster, I guess.

By Ed Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Tuesday, April 05, 2011 - 08:06 pm: Edit

Not if you dont have drone racks, or need the drones for other uses.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, April 05, 2011 - 08:24 pm: Edit

Ed is right (again!)

Probe launchers are still standard equipment long after the General War is over.

They may not be as important in many Star Fleet Battles scenarios, but there are times (such as in Monster encounters for example) when any other substitute just won't do!

By Steven E. Ehrbar (See) on Wednesday, April 06, 2011 - 12:34 am: Edit

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Quote:

Don't probe drones make probe launchers obsolete?

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By Ed Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Wednesday, April 06, 2011 - 04:24 pm: Edit

I would not mind seeing a longer ranged probe for info, but I am sure that the seeking weapon races would not want that, nothing like being able to ID a target 12 hexes away. Maybe more people would use tham if we had more really valid things to use them for. I dont see a real reason to turn it into a more advanced weapon. I could see it as some sort of jammming device, maybe not a direct amount of ECM or ECCM, but something that might could be used to jam the lockon for a short period of time.

By Ed Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Wednesday, April 06, 2011 - 04:27 pm: Edit

Jamming might be interesting, fire it at a seeking weapon on ship in order to give you a chance to get closer or go around the weapon. It would not be confused with chaff whick draws away the weapon. It would just basically blind the sensors for a several impulses.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, April 06, 2011 - 06:07 pm: Edit

Ed,

you raise some good points, but if I may respond to a couple of them...

first, as proposed, the advanced probe (or class 2, to use the terminology) would still be limited by the number of probes a ship is originally equipped with (or if purchased separately as commanders options points) limited by the number of CO points available.

that means, there is an absolute ceiling (in BPVs) that a player could afford to put into the number of probe rounds that a player might have available.

Secondly, the ability to use a probe as a weapon (both the original AM type warhead or the proposed advanced probe warhead that is 1/2 the strength of the origianl AM type) is limited in both damage potential and accuracy.

Third, there is not a "jamming function" in the current proposal. That is not to say that I would be opposed to it, just that so far no one has proposed such a modification to the proposal.

Just one observation, any "soft kill" or "mission kill" proposal for probes having a jamming ability has traditionally been resisted by the powers that be, and is (IIRC) listed on the auto reject list.

Not saying that something might some day be accepted, just that the bar is set very high on such an ability, and might not be good for the game.

By George Duffy (Sentinal) on Wednesday, April 06, 2011 - 06:11 pm: Edit

Jamming , as you described would be a whole different matter.

If it "blinds" it's sensors for a few impulses, then the drone would either immediately go inert (loss it's lock-on); or if it had ATG, reacquire another target based on it's programming.

By Ed Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Wednesday, April 06, 2011 - 07:51 pm: Edit

the jamming funcition could be used in several ways, not to kill the seeking weapon, it would lock on to the jammer them at the end of the jamming period could re-aquire the original target. Seeking weapons have more than enought problems already being killed off. As far as other ships it could be used to block say a scout lendingto a target because of jamming. the blocking of a lockon I would see as a major use, A cloaking ship might find it useful if the ship tracking it is close enough to maintain a lockon.

By Reid Hupach (Gwbison) on Wednesday, April 06, 2011 - 07:57 pm: Edit

I liked the Idea of a sensor Mine or satelite

It would be something a Survey cruiser might have a few of, it gets dropped off by the ship near a planet or a strange terrain feature
it might slowly orbit a planet or just sit in place collecting data on whatever it is supposed to be by

Then it can dump the data into a burst message of some kind back to the ship or it can be picked backup later for better data recovery.