Moved from another thread...

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 06:53 pm: Edit


Some questions about Orions.

Are they able to use Sabot plasma?

If yes, how much does it cost for Pl-F (with and without swivel)?

If you take Pl-F in the FA options, without swivel I assume its arc is FA, but with swivel its FP?

If you take Pl-F in the LS/RS options, without swivel its LS/RS, but with swivel its LP/RP?

A final question which is more theoretical I guess... but is there any ship which comes close to the AR at its introduction year? I cant even see a 110 BPV ship which would come close, outside of another AR...

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 07:37 pm: Edit


Jason,

Working from memory concering the sabot questions...

There is nothing in the sabot rules that excludes or limits Orion access that I am aware of.

The sabot upgrade is a flat fee, not a BPV percentage. The price would therefore be the same for swivel vs non-swivel plasma. I believe 1 BPV per launcher.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 07:56 pm: Edit


Jason, the Orion AR YIS is Y166. The CA (127) Y132, HR (108) Y165 and OK6 (130) Y165 should all be able to take it.

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 08:03 pm: Edit


What year does Sabot become available?

Tos, I was more talking about which non-Orion races would have a chance against the AR.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 08:08 pm: Edit


Race Ship BPV YIS
Federation CA 125 130
Federation CA+ 139 165
Federation CAR 129 160
Federation CAR+ 143 165
Federation CC 137 143
Federation CC+ 147 165
Federation CS 125 165
Federation GSC 122 140
Federation GSC+ 132 165
Gorn CC 124 140
Hydran DG 130 158
Hydran LB 150 162
Hydran LC 126 134
Hydran LM 138 160
Hydran SRG 130 158
Kzinti BC 128 160
Kzinti BF 142 165
Kzinti CA 126 138
Kzinti CC 135 147
Kzinti CD+ 128 166
Tholian CA 128 160
Tholian CC 148 165
Klingon D6B 123 165
Klingon D7 121 135
Klingon D7A 131 165
Klingon D7B 128 165
Klingon D7C 131 143
Klingon D7Z 121 141
Klingon FD7 147 162
Lyran CA 133 120
Lyran CC 150 120
Lyran CF 161 165
Romulan KRC 171 165
Andromedan INT 265 166
ISC CAb 195 160
ISC CAe 163 160
ISC CAT 175 165
ISC CLb 153 160
ISC CLe 127 160
ISC CPF 125 155
LDR CA 145 163


By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 08:10 pm: Edit


Jason, based upon my answer, I'm thinking I still don't understand your question.

Are you asking what non-Orion ship of <110 BPV could fight an AR to a draw?

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 08:19 pm: Edit


I wouldn't want to face a LDR CL or DWb with the wrong package on a fixed map.

A Romulan WE that's real good at cloaking tactics could be fun.

A Lyran DWLb might make you work for it.

Tangling with a Klingon D6I might get you arrested.

Even a Fed DD+ or DDL+ can ruin your day.

What single package would you take to counter all these foes?

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 08:37 pm: Edit


My question is as your post above: what sub 110 BPV ship could take out an Orion AR?

The LDR DW is out, because its a totally broken ship and we arent using them (though the AR isnt far behind in my view).

The package is 2 DIS, 1 Ph-G, 2 Ph-1.

So maybe the Fed DD+ would have a chance if the Photons hit, but that is assume the Orion decides to close, and not simply ping away at range. Im thinking of matching the AR with my own AR - 4 Pl-F and a Ph-G.

I just need to know what year the Sabot refit is available.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 09:57 pm: Edit


Sabots: Y180. PL-F cost 1 point to upgrade.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 10:44 pm: Edit


Jason,

Have you considered the Wyn LDD (captured and drastically upgunned Lyran DD)? With all refits except for mech links it costs 103 BPV + drone costs. If you're in the fast drone era (which you presumably would be if you can take plasma sabot) the drones would cost another 6 points for standard Type-1F. Total - 109 BPV modifiable by changing the drone loadout.

Note that this does not include the casual fighter that the LDD could take. Including the fighter would push it well over your limit.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 11:56 pm: Edit


Alan, nice find. That's a nasty, nasty little ship.

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Tuesday, August 04, 2009 - 01:21 am: Edit


Will have to check it out when I fail with the Fed DD+ (Im assuming he either sticks to R9-R15, or never moves closer than R5 to force me in to firing and hoping, before closing in for the kill - its what I'd do).

BTW its Y171 so that Sabot year means I couldnt go with that option.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, August 04, 2009 - 01:00 pm: Edit


Actually the LDR should be great at Rom fighting.

1) Gats to whittle the torps
2) ESG for overruns of cloakers.

I would think the Lyrans would play at high speed/

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Tuesday, August 04, 2009 - 01:39 pm: Edit

If you're playing in Y171, my advice would be the following ships...

Fed DDL+ (lots of firepower but less of a power burden than the DD) or a Fed CL+ (ok, its 111 BPV, but it has the advantage of a little more internal fortitude + a drone rack).

Klingon D6I (107 BPV)

Rom...best chance might be a WER (103). Could be a decidedly unfun game.

Kzinti CM weighs in right at 110 BPV and would be a very good match, but might be too pricey depending on how you are paying for medium speed drones.

Gorn...easy. CL+. Might have crappy shields, but it had big time plasma for the price.

Tholian...your screwed.

Hydran...some of the command versions of the LN/KN are pretty nasty, but are just a year or two late. Best bet might be the TR. Make a weak shield and hope you can make it a long game.

Lyran - Not sure if a DWL will fit under 110 after you buy the Power Pack and everything else, but I bet a DW would fit. A very good ship.

WYN - Covered. LDD.

ISC - DDL? It is exactly 110 BPV before you take away its rear plasmas...and its chance of winning.

LDR - take this only if you feel mean.

Honorable mention...Vudar CL. Right at 110 BPV.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, August 04, 2009 - 01:57 pm: Edit

Isn't a Hydran Ranger 90 BPV w/o fighters?

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Tuesday, August 04, 2009 - 06:33 pm: Edit

Jeremy,

A Lyran DW with Phaser and Power Pack refit was obliterated. It simply didnt have the big crunch, because its very hard to ram an Orion ship that is overloading weapons and moving at high speed.

I even tried running around and not engaging him for a few turns just to get him wasting his engines. When I finally attacked he hammered me at R5 and took out an ESG and a bunch of phasers.

The ISC DDL doesnt have enough crunch either.

I was looking more at the Hydran HR than the RN. But the RN with 2 St-2 could be a good choice.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 - 02:56 pm: Edit

The Lyran DW has its ESGs to make the crunch.

And if the Orion is zipping around OL and Doubling, the Lyran can play keep away (floating map) for a while or chase the Orion into a corner (fixed map).

The Lyran has to just not let the Orion set all the tempo.

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Thursday, August 06, 2009 - 01:24 am: Edit

The DW shields are paper compared to the AR. At R4 (or less if you already know the radius of the ESG) it can do a huge amount of internals.

And as we all know, it doesnt matter how many or how few internals you get, an ESG is knocked out in the first salvo (and yes, this is what happened in the game I played).

Not to mention the ability to then HET after firing, so even if the ESGs are untouched, they end up not hitting anything.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Thursday, August 06, 2009 - 03:22 am: Edit

One question: How is this AR armed?

[Edit] Never mind...found it up thread: 2 DIS, 1 Ph-G, 2 Ph-1

Are you guys using full EW? Is the map floating or fixed (if so, how big)?

At 112 BPV (counting the gat), in Y171, you are basically talking about older CLs or a handful of competitive DDs. Its not so much the ship, but the year in which you are fighting. If it was Y175-177, there a bunch of ships that are a much better match.

I still like the Fed DDL+ in this match up. Pl-Fs to keep the gat busy, and the photons and phasers put it on equal or better terms firepower wise. With 23 power on a 1/2 move cost hull, the DDL+ is also pretty quick, even when fully armed. The shields are weaker than the AR, but if you are looking for shields at that price range, the ships that have big ones are either slow or too lighly gunned.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Thursday, August 06, 2009 - 04:09 am: Edit

Also, I can see why a Lyran DW might have difficulty with repeated range 5 passes. Would a DWL (with more ph-1s) fair better? My memory may be shaky, but that's 3 Disrs w/UIM +4 Ph-1s vs 2 Disr w/o UIM + 5 Ph-1s (assuming a non-centerline)...again, could mis-remembering. At range 5, depending on disruptor accuracy, that could be about even.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Thursday, August 06, 2009 - 02:06 pm: Edit

For the point value and year, why not take a Gorn HDD? It weighs in at 111 points, and has 5x ph-1, 1xS, 2xF (with carronades), good shields and durability.

You can also use your psuedo-Fs for ECM plasma to give him a shift.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, August 06, 2009 - 04:55 pm: Edit

What are the enemy's tactics liable to be?

This option set is built to conserve power to weapons any turn he doesn't feel like being aggressive and also finances high speed and/or a heavily bricked shield. But he doesn't have much crunch outside point-blank range.

Likely tactics against a like-size opponent would be closing under brick and high speed to initiate a knife fight ASAP, then staying close to continue hammering away. I suppose it could dance, but the orion is always on a timeclock. I tend to think it knife-fights for the win.

If that's his game, how do we throw him off it?

We outmaneuver him. We'd need something that can power std disruptor, maintain high speed, and maneuver as good or better than the enemy. I can't think of one, but that doesn't mean one doesn't exist.

We outpower him. The hydran ranger is a choice here. CA power and shields extend a lot of interesting possibilities, among them a "hydran anchor". Hydrans are made to take a beating so it might be able to win a knife-fighting game of rochembaeu even if the orion kicks first.

This is where jeremy's DDG+ woulld fit. It actually has three tiers of offensive weapons when the enemy might only think of two. It has photons, F-torps and P-1s. The orion has no toys to distract phasers from itself and 6 P-1s is a lot of damage to absorb. Even on "dry" turns with no plasma and photons, it would be a bear to knife fight against. the question would be penetrating damage. The Orion is going to thump hard and thump regularly. Can the Fed hold it together on reload turns for its next big strike?

The Rom War eagle is the same sort of thing. The orion is reasonably well-built to cloak hunt however and under cloak, there's no way for the WE to get anywhere useful. there is however the "large, metal-cased object" option too.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, August 06, 2009 - 05:21 pm: Edit

The DDG has drones, THe DDL has plasmas

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Thursday, August 06, 2009 - 06:15 pm: Edit

I still think he's better off with an HDD.

S-torp gives you range, Carronades give you close in punch, and all the cutsie plasma games (psuedos, ECM plasma, launching Fs late in one turn and having carronades ready early the next, holding Fs and having 2 heavy shots) make it a contender.

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Thursday, August 06, 2009 - 07:00 pm: Edit

Its a 42x60 map and the max BPV is 110, with the year being Y171 at the latest. The BPV includes all purchases.

As for not much crunch, upwards of 30 damage at range 5 is a lot when it can be done every turn. More than enough to tear through most destroyers/DWs/CWs while few ships can do 30 damage in return each round, and that is still only enough to drop a shield assuming no reinforcement.

And being an Orion, he gets a couple of free HETs so it will be very hard to get a crunch ship even closer, unless the timing is perfect.

I think what it boils down to, is that at certain years and certain BPV there are some ships which are quite simply brilliant.

The Hydran KN is one. The LDR DW is another. The Orion AR another. I'd add the Klingon D5 as long as you have a minimum of medium drones with no other refits.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Thursday, August 06, 2009 - 07:02 pm: Edit

Jason, if the max BPV is 110, your Orion opponent is over by 2 points (when you calculate the cost of his option mounts - see Jeremy's post above).

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Thursday, August 06, 2009 - 08:57 pm: Edit

R15 DIS, Ph-G, 2 Ph-1 is a net zero cost, so the ship is 100 BPV.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Thursday, August 06, 2009 - 10:44 pm: Edit

Ah, so it is.

Gorn BDL, then? No - one year too early for that.

Plasma-boat wise, a Gorn BDD (96) or DDL (100) might work, then. The BDD is more manueverable, but the LS/RS arcs on the F-launchers for the DDL lets you play more of a running battle.

Or if you want to go Romulan, a BH (85) or K5L (104) might work.

Klingon-wise, why not a D5 (110)?

The Fed DDL is probably a great bet.

ISC DDL is 110 points.

Tholians, DDP is probably all you've got.

Are you allowed to buy special officers with excess BPV?

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Thursday, August 06, 2009 - 11:29 pm: Edit

Nothing extra. My initial fight is at 100 BPV and Im going D6I but I assume I will lose this. Though I could get lucky with DIS hits, and the D6I at least can take internals.

My real focus is what to take at 110 BPV.

One option is taking an AR of my own, and going for 2xPl-G (no swivel so FA), Ph-G (FA), 2xPl-F (swivel) in the wings.

By Marc Baluda (Marc) on Friday, August 07, 2009 - 12:55 pm: Edit

Lyran CLp+ = 98

2xDis, 6xP-1s, 2xESGs, 2xP-3s. You have okay speed until you fire the P-1s, or use ESGs. You don't have the power to recharge and run.

So don't. Hammer him and move at medium speed - you don't need to run and you win the long range game and short range crunch. You don't even need R3. And if he wants any use out of the P-G, he needs to wade through your ESGs.

You will beat that Orion.

By Kerry E Mullan (Nomad17) on Friday, August 07, 2009 - 01:36 pm: Edit

Yeah by hte same token against an ORI again a biggie would be just a Fed DD+. Starting at WS3 means T1 you can OL all phots and rumble forward at spd 19 ish. Pretty much hitting with 2 phots shuold ruin his day. Yeah you may not be able to reload more than 2 but is there a big need to?

As well going with a generic KZI DD+ means enough drones to make a nuisance and with 4 p1+2 OL disr you can hurt him.

A third option is the BHB or BHR dependent upon leader restrictions.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Friday, August 07, 2009 - 01:43 pm: Edit

The AR is really a light cruiser hull; light cruisers are probably a better match for it than war destroyers in some cases.

Hey, here's a thought: Kzinti CL+. Normally a ship I'd avoid, but if the AR wants to rush you, park and hammer him with 4x disruptors on the way in. Then put enough drones out there that he has to use up his phasers to get through them.