Orions.

I am curious about the g1111 Orion. Why pick it over plasma-F's? It seems to me that the only ships where g1111 is better than both plasma and hellbores are the Andromedan, possibly the Firehawk and WAX, none of which are really terrible matchups anyway. Whereas, plasma works out a lot better against the Lyran, Kzinti, and Fed, which can be pretty dangerous to the Orion.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, April 24, 2011 - 09:36 am: Edit

I'd imagine it is 'cause after the plasma F's are launched, you are down some guns for a few turns and there is something to be said for the totally pure phaser theory of just "shoot-shoot-shoot". The plasma F version is also considerably more vulnerable to a parking opponent (which the Orion is vulnerable to anyway, and taking the plasma Fs just encourages them to park even more).

The all phaser version is also less resistant to damage--losing an F torp to a lucky internal can be problematic if you haven't launched it yet (as Paul pointed out in his CL article, they can just decel and weasel off the destroyed torp, and the Orion is out a lot of firepower).

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Monday, April 25, 2011 - 10:09 am: Edit

The all phaser Orion is a solid all-around package, but I just find it to be boring. In almost 2 decades of playing Orions I don't think that I have ever taken that package. To me, part of the allure of flying an Orion is the creativity of your package load out and there is precious little creativity in this package.

That being said, Peter is dead on with "shoot shoot shoot". You won't knock anybody out in a single strike with this ship, but you are equally dangerous every turn and weapons hits don't hurt you much until you've taken a bunch of them.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, April 25, 2011 - 06:40 pm: Edit

I've seen it posted elsewhere that, by and large, the Seltorian ship makes for a poor tournament cruiser. Be that as it may, can it at least cause trouble for the two Tholian TCs?

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, April 25, 2011 - 06:58 pm: Edit

Gary wrote:
>>I've seen it posted elsewhere that, by and large, the Seltorian ship makes for a poor tournament cruiser. Be that as it may, can it at least cause trouble for the two Tholian TCs?>>

Oh, it isn't horrible. It just isn't that exciting. It goes fast, shoots pretty well, and is reasonably tough. It suffers from not having anything at all other than direct fire weapons, and not overwhelmingly devastating direct fire weapons. It can HET at 28, which is nice, and it tends to have a lot of left over power on attack runs (assuming it is just holding 3 power in each PC) for reinforcement or HET or tractor, but has trouble reloading, PCs are *really* sub-optimal, and the special effect of the PC (i.e. firing twice per turn) works not that great in the tournament environment.

They do fine vs the Tholians if the Tholians throw up webs, but really, the Tholian can do just fine vs a Selt by using the WC as a Web Fist and just out shooting them.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Tuesday, April 26, 2011 - 04:41 am: Edit

The PC is much less horrible than commonly believed; I have often proposed replacing the disruptors on the Neo-Tholian TC with particle cannons (not as an upgrade, just to make it different enough from the ATC that there might be some possible reason to play it).

The thing to realize about the PC is that while it has not a lot of damage and not a lot of accuracy, it also costs very little energy (in overload and second shot mode). And the other heavy weapon, the SC/WB, holds for free. When you compare the ability of the PC to fire an OL *and* a standard for the same power as an OL disruptor, but the PC does substantially more damage when used in this way, the PC is not looking so bad, even with the 12 impulse cycle time (which does, admittedly, suck horribly). Even if you don't get the second shot in, the OL itself is approximately the same power efficiency as a disruptor (exact results vary by range).

What does suck with the PC is if you fire it in standard mode as the first shot of the turn. This firing mode is not efficient at all and it doesn't have a lot of crunch power either.

The PC is commonly underloaded with only 3 points of power at the start of the game and this is just a horrible idea. You might underload one, if you are expecting to lose it to damage on the first turn.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, April 26, 2011 - 08:35 am: Edit

William wrote:
>>The PC is much less horrible than commonly believed;>>

Heh. On paper, it looks bad. The upon further examination, on paper, it starts to look not that bad. But then on further, further examination when you play the ship a lot, it comes back around to "Man. This gun is horrible." :-)

I've put a lot of effort into trying to make the Selt viable. And as noted, it isn't horrible, but more often than not, what gets you killed is the PCs blowing.

>>The thing to realize about the PC is that while it has not a lot of damage and not a lot of accuracy, it also costs very little energy (in overload and second shot mode).>>

Sure. Generally, the good plan is to hold 4 power in 3 of the PCs (for 6 power) and 3 power in the 4th (1.5 power). So on an attack run, you have 7.5 power in your heavy guns, leaving 32.5 power for speed and reinforcement and shuttles and whatever. Which means you generally can go fast, have a suicide or weasel or two, a couple points of tractor, and then have an extra 5-6 point brick somewhere. Which isn't horrible. Until you start shooting and your guns all miss. The best case scenario is something like get to R4, shoot, hit average, do some reasonable amount of damage, take a similar amount back (as your SCs help make up the difference), maybe get a second shot with your 3 surviving PCs that mostly miss and hit an up shield, and then the next turn, you have to reload a lot of very expensive guns as your opponent gets to shot you sooner than you get to shoot back.

>>The PC is commonly underloaded with only 3 points of power at the start of the game and this is just a horrible idea. You might underload one, if you are expecting to lose it to damage on the first turn.>>

Starting with just the 3 power in each gun gives you a *lot* of extra power on T1, which is quite handy vs, say, plasma ships (which tend to eat the Selt for lunch so it needs the help) when it probably isn't going to be facing the plasma ship 12 impulses after shooting the first time anyway. Against a DF opponent, having 4 power in 3 of the PCs isn't at all out of the realm of reason, but still, it is often very difficult to pull off a second shot out of the PCs, and even more difficult to pull off a second shot that is remotely significant.

One of the real killers for the PC is that at R2, it still has a 1-4 to hit. Which is *horrible*--all the other guns in the tournament get a significant jump in effectiveness at R2 (they generally go up to 1-5 to hit), but if the Selt accidentally wanders into R2, it is just getting killed by Disruptors or Photons or Hellbores.

I mean, yeah, the Selt isn't completely horrible--it has a great phaser suite, a very good power curve at the start of the game, takes damage pretty well, and, in theory, can do a lot of damage while going very fast. In practice, however, the PCs tend to shoot this ship in the foot more often than not.

By Andrew J. Koch (Droid) on Tuesday, April 26, 2011 - 12:26 pm: Edit

I can beat Peter when he plays the Selt. I think that speaks volumes, no?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, April 26, 2011 - 03:06 pm: Edit

I wouldn't mind seeing a PC-armed Neo; though it might work better if we ever get an M81 Galaxy module, and people try to make tournament ships for that setting (like a tourney OG Pirate ship, for example; or one for the still-mostly-undefined Nebuline).

Actually, if the home galaxy restrictions applied to tourneys with all M81 ships, that could make things work a little differently...

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Tuesday, April 26, 2011 - 05:19 pm: Edit

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Quote:

all the other guns in the tournament get a significant jump in effectiveness at R2 (they generally go up to 1-5 to hit), but if the Selt accidentally wanders into R2, it is just getting killed by Disruptors or Photons or Hellbores.

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Quote:

Generally, the good plan is to hold 4 power in 3 of the PCs

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Quote:

I wouldn't mind seeing a PC-armed Neo; though it might work better if we ever get an M81 Galaxy module

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By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, April 26, 2011 - 05:43 pm: Edit

William wrote:
>>PCs actually improve more from R3 to R2 than disruptors do. Disruptors improve from 1-4 accuracy to 1-5, which is a 25% improvement. PCs don't improve accuracy, but their damage goes from 6 to 8, which is a 33% improvement.>>

Well, again, on paper, that looks solid. In reality, however, hitting on 1-4's at R2 is horrible. 'Cause everyone else is hitting you at 1-5 or better at that range. Yeah, the PC improves with a 33% damage increase in that range jump, but that is improving you up to the point where the PC is *still* worse than a disruptor. Yeah, it costs 3 power instead of 4 to take that shot, but it is not a good shot.

>>Meanwhile, average PC power efficiency at R2 is 1.77 damage per power, while disruptor power efficiency is 1.66. A small advantage in efficiency at such a close range is not very important, but really, the PC is fine.>>

Again, on paper, I'd agree with you. In practice, not so much.

I think the best possible illustration of this is that in the FFAC charity tournament, I bid money to put Bill S into the Selt to fly for the tournament. I'm pretty sure he is on his 4th re-entry at this point. Bill.

>> It's just that you can't say "I'm going to go to R2 and blow my opponent up with PCs," but rather "I'm going to go to R2 and blow my opponent up with PCs, and SCs, and phasers, and take advantage of my huge power budget." >>

Well, to be fair, really, it is "I'm going to go to R2 and try and blow up my opponent with PCs and SCs and phasers and take advantage of my huge power budget, but I'll miss a lot, get totally mangled in return, and get killed again before my torps can fire a second time."

>>The better plan is to hold 5 power in all your PCs, unless you expect to lose one to damage before turn 2. Holding 5 power, you spend 10 on PCs, and obviously nothing on WB/SCs. This is less than disruptor ships that want to overload, the same as the Hydran arming two fusions (again, assuming no overloads), the same as a plasma ship with an EPT (except the plasma ship only has 38 power instead of 40), obviously less than the Fed, etc etc. You don't need the power on turn 1, you do need it on turn 2.>>

At which point you are giving up power to hold energy in your PCs that you won't actually significantly benefit from. The best way to make that ship work, generally speaking, seems to be treating the PCs just as bad disruptors. Hold 3 power in the capacitor. Fire them the one time, and then don't even bother arming them on the next turn as you run away and reload your phasers and SCs. Come back on turn N+2 and fight again. Ken Lin has been pretty successful in this ship doing just this. I've played it like that, and played it holding 4/4/4/3 (assuming I'd lose that last PC to damage), and in the end, again, the ship isn't horrible, and it can win, but more often than not, what kills you is the PCs suffering from the horrible to hit rolls relative to everyone else's guns.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, April 26, 2011 - 08:04 pm: Edit

From Bill over in the FFAC tournament thread (re: the Selt):

>>I am in my 3rd entry, 2nd re-entry.

The ships is poor, and the PC is a bad weapon. No crunch, no accuracy. Its alpha on its first shot is respectable. Re arming is almost a pipe dream. If your opponent allows you to rearm by all means charge up, but otherwise you need to expect it to fly like a phaser boat.>>

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, April 27, 2011 - 01:51 am: Edit

If a Home Galaxy neo needed something to offset the reduced options, maybe it could get the collar seen in Module R12?


For M81, there are at least the High Pirate Bands, as well as the ships of the regular Nebuline navy; according to the info in CL41, the pirates used export (i.e. "stripped of key Nebuline technology") versions of the Nebuline's own Raiders and Destroyers, which in turn were adapted from wingless hulls used in their regular Navy.

Plus, there's at least two other pre-Will empires (who were co-belligerents of the Nebuline in the Great Martial War, but unlike the Nebuline were conquered outright) and the various pre-Seltorian enforcer species.

Right now, we don't have much info on the regular Nebuline ships; but I would hope that they could at least be competitive in open space, whatever their "serious advantage in combat" they are said to have in their home nebulae turns out to be.

If that were to be the case, it would make it a lot easier to balance a Nebuline cruiser for use in a tourney format.

By Brendan Lally (Brendan_Lally) on Sunday, May 29, 2011 - 11:46 pm: Edit

As my SFB experience continues to grow, I am experimenting with new and different ships. i have recently ended what was a tragic love affair with the LDR for what, at this time, seems a promising venture with the Orion TBR.

I have some questions for those more experienced than I; how would one fly an all phaser Orion, are we scraping R8 or R5? What opponent would it be most suitable against?

The other package I presently favour is the PPPff. If someone has a strong recommendation for a second package option I would love to hear it.

Cheers,

By Chris Proper (Duke) on Monday, May 30, 2011 - 03:32 pm: Edit

Phaser Orions eat wyn auxiliaries. Just get behind them and chase them until they die. Plasma ships can't compete with a ship so fast and maneuverable, the game is how close you can get without being anchored. Disruptor/drone ships depend on seekers to soak up phaser fire, unless you can slalom the drones and shoot the cruiser. The direct fire ships just crack you open at range 4, so use your other package against them. I'm not the Orion expert, but you really should think about two hellbores, a gatling, and some drones for that other package. Drones can pre-occupy enemy guns to the point where you don't take internals if you reinforce your shield. The hellbores are just the best non-phaser weapon.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, May 30, 2011 - 04:12 pm: Edit

Yeah, what Chris said.

The PPPff isn't bad, although you are probably better off with a PPP1f (i.e. attack with the P1 in arc, if you take embarrasing internals, hit the out of arc fusion; if you don't, use it to overrun after the first volley).

You are probably even better better off with PPgf1. But then, if you are using that, you should probably just be using HHgb1, as that is always going to be better than the PPgf1.

The most common packages are:

HHgb1/HHgbb

11g11

FFgf1

Lots of folks like messing around with wacky arrangements and whatever, but those are the ones voted "Most Likely To Show Up".

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Monday, May 30, 2011 - 07:23 pm: Edit

Gatlings are nice; they pull the Orion victim to his end.

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Monday, May 30, 2011 - 11:03 pm: Edit

Brendan, (my opinion only), try:

HHgBB
PPg1f
FFg1f (i suck at this package, but know others have made it work)

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Monday, May 30, 2011 - 11:05 pm: Edit

P.S. LDRs rule! You must feel the pain in order to know the joy!

By Andrew J. Koch (Droid) on Monday, May 30, 2011 - 11:14 pm: Edit

Carl,
Good to see you come into the gatling fold!

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Tuesday, May 31, 2011 - 06:10 am: Edit

On the contrary, Andrew, but I guess I could have put that less ambigously.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Tuesday, May 31, 2011 - 10:51 am: Edit

Phaser-1s in side mounts is probably the worst option choise. Too little damage, and no fear factor.

By Brendan Lally (Brendan_Lally) on Tuesday, May 31, 2011 - 02:13 pm: Edit

Thanks for all the advice fellas. I can really feel the gatling love in this topic. However, I am pretty convinced that the PPPff is more than adequate. I personally like the option of R4 shot with the 3rd photon vs ESG armed opponents and the like as opposed to having to get to R2 or less to make the gat as effective.

I've seen the recommendations for the FFgff or 11 or some combo thereof, but for the life of me can't figure out how to fly it or whom I would fly it against. Perhaps some advice in this area would help me "see the light"

I can certainly see the appeal of the HHgBB (or B1) but that seems as though that would be another close and kill style package similar to the PPPff I currently revel in. Is there a more 'stand-off' style package for the orion that is viable? what about a PPD with an F and two fusions?

Pounds away with the PPD T1 with no doubling. The F and the two f would allow a decent close deterrent/especially with the ability to brick. T3 use the PPD again with T4 or T5 the end game.

By Chris Proper (Duke) on Tuesday, May 31, 2011 - 02:21 pm: Edit

Give up on the ppd for option mounts. The hellbore does it better. The photon package is really good against lyrans but there is more than one way to skin a cat.

By Jonathan Biggar (Jonb) on Tuesday, May 31, 2011 - 02:42 pm: Edit

IMO standoff tactics for an Orion are somewhat of an oxymoron, unless you are using a very power-light phaser package and don't need to double any engines much.

If you are doubling, you are on a time clock, and standing off means less damage to your opponent, which means he can run out the clock easier.