Module X2= X2 ships and the Trade Wars with an introduction of the Xorkellians scouts.

Module CX= The Xorkellians and maybe a few "Fleeing races".

Module X2R= More Xorks and those Hardcore Bad Ass X2 "Ace up the sleeve" ships I wrote about above.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 03:46 pm: Edit

Tos,

I understand where you're coming from, but I think you're a voice in the wilderness.

A big drive out in the rank and file is the Tim Taylor urge for "more power!" A X1R that has nothing larger than a CMX and no BCX's and DNX's just isn't going to sell.

Not that the CM X is a bad ship. You'll need to return the photons to 120-degree arcs and the GX@ racks to GX and maybe knock a phaser or two off of it to make it a X1 ship.

Likewise Loren,

I think the "multi-role" concept for X2 is doomed also. Most races don't need or want multi-role warships. They want ones optimized for a given mission, which for a warship is usually blowing stuff up. Strikes me that only the Feds would be interested ina multi-role starship.

Could you set out the missions you envision the X2 ship engaging in?

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 04:50 pm: Edit

Loren: "you want the Trade Wars to be handled by exsisting X1 type ships?"

I view the trade wars as between Y205-214.

In 205 the X1R ships are introduced, moderately improved X ships of the smaller/faster/more efficient variety. Ships like the XCM (and smaller cousins) posted above. Ships maxing out near 250 BPV.

XP X1 X1B X1R
Y205 75% 15% 5% 5%
Y206 70 15 5 10
Y207 65 15 5 15
Y208 60 15 5 20
Y209 55 15 5 25
Y210 50 15 5 30
Y211 45 15 5 35
Y212 40 15 5 40
Y213 35 15 5 45
Y214 30 15 5 50

XP ships are slowly pushed to convoy and fixed defense duty.
X1 ships, due to their higher maintenance costs, spend time mostly docked to an X-base waiting for a war.
X1B ships are off doing the special things they do.
X1R ships are busy patrolling using their higher strategic speed to carryout the trade war missions.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 05:00 pm: Edit

I quite like Tos's timeline, but think it's too accelerated in the later parts. My preference would be for something like this at the fastest:

(~Y180) Introduction of first X-ships.
(~Y195) X-ship production increases, but remains only a portion of new construction. Outstanding crew requirement dropped. Conversion of support infrastructure to support X-ship operations continues.
(~Y205) Production of non-X ships ends. New designs that take full advantage of the new technology (X1R) enter service; some but not all X1 designs are superceded. All fleets are now planning to have a pure X technology fleet, though non-X ships will remain in service for some time.
(~Y240) X1.5 ships enter service. These ships are roughly as superior to X1/X1R ships as hot warp ships were to standard warp ships in Y170. X1/X1R ships refitted to cope with the new environment. X1/X1R ships remain in service and production. First use of systems superior to those in X1.
(~Y275) X2 period begins.


Sidenote: It's also possible that X tech, as a whole, is a strategic dead end, with the ships never becoming easy enough to operate that the whole fleet can convert to it. All of the technology seen to date that arrives from outside (eg. Andros, Tholians, Jindarian, several monsters) is comparable to non-X tech; that this tech level but not beyond has been reached in several widely seperated areas implies that going beyond it is difficult.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 05:04 pm: Edit

Well, one similar to the one layed out in Supplement 2 and others.

I just got called away so let me get back to this.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 05:05 pm: Edit

The more power group hasn't yet realized that once you go up you can't go back down. If Y205 has 350 BPV X2 cruisers that wipe the map with X1 tech then what you have is an entirely unrelated game. If these 350 point cruisers go off to fight the trade wars then they will certainly need to be upgraded again to fight the Xorks. Now we are in the 500 point cruiser range. Bleeh. We will get their but lets delay the inevitable as long as possible.

"X2, IMO, should happen some time before the Xork invasion."
IMO X2 should occur after the Xork have blitzed through half of Lyran, Kzinti, Gorn and Fed space. The Galactics should be fighting their way out of a hole. Much more fun that way and a compelling reason to build these new battleships the power hungry have in mind.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 05:16 pm: Edit

"Could you set out the missions you envision the X2 ship engaging in?"

X2 ships fight the Xorks, that's the only reason anyone would spend the money to build them. I should have included that in my 4:50pm message.

"You'll need to return the photons to 120-degree arcs and the GX@ racks to GX and maybe knock a phaser or two off of it to make it a X1 ship."

I think you are missing the point. I'm not trying to make an X1R ship equal to an X1 ship. X1R is pound for pound better than X1. The XCM uses better than X1 tech such as the 180-degree photon, GX2 drone rack and P-5; and it does it on hull 25% smaller and with 50% of the maintenance costs. The reason the races don't build BCX and DNX ships is they are at peace and don't need them. Enter the Xorks. Now they need them and behold, they appear. I'd like to see the Xorks romping through our space a good 5+ years before X2 appears to stem the tide. Only X2 has the legs to take the battle back to the enemy homeworld.

With that timeline in mind I would push X2 back another decade and create an X1R2 Xork 'dark years' period.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 06:37 pm: Edit

Agreed that X2 should probably occur as a result of the Xorks. And some Dark years are highly appropos.

There is an alternate reason for building BCX's and DNX's. Because someone else is or because you wanta deterrent against them.

The SFU isn't a place that's ever free of border skirmishes, small wars and local conflicts. give the Galactics 5, at most 10 years and they'll be back to their old ways. Warweariness only lasts so long.

Once the Trade Wars commence, tensions will again escalate and everybody's going to want to build up the hardware. Something like the "Washington naval Treaty" would be needed to keep a new arms race from breaking out.

If the treaty, say, limted cruiser tonnage to 150,000 tons (the Fed CA weighs in at 180,000 and q BCH probably tips the scales above 200,000), Tos' smaller, but more advanced X1.5 cruisers would then be the standard bearers.

But the brass have to have their toys so there would be a limited number of BCX's and DNX's for command and control.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 06:57 pm: Edit

the problem with producing a new class of ships after the invasion starts is that the invasion will be over before you have enough ships.

in the GW the alliance survived becouse their ships were good enough, they just didn't have enough of them.

remember that most races produce 2 CA class ships and 1 DN class ship each year (feds and klingons 4CA/year, feds 2DN/year) a serious invasion should move at least 6 hexes/year (building a base every 3 hexes and attacking 6 hexes out from the newest base built) At this rate they cross the entire alpha quadrent in 3 years. that doesn't give much time to build ships.

even if scouts show up a couple years in advance there still isn't time to build significant fleets.

so either the invasion needs to be weak enough that X1 ships can do a good job of slowing it down or X2 needs to be well established when it hits.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 07:31 pm: Edit

I'm with David.

I have a selfish reason for wanting X2 a certain way. But one way is no way and I'm trying to be careful to listen to other points of view. Mostly I want to see the rest of the history written. By who, I don't really care. If SVC prints it, I'll probably like it.

Tos: It's a good premise. The Xorks will have to be not too strong because what ever the Alpha has will have to be able to resist. When X2 comes along it can't be too advanced because the Xorks won't be able to responde fast enough to new tech. changes(it's too dificult to conduct R&D on the front line and the Home Empire is a long ways away). I'm sure your Time Line can accout for this though. Your technology description is generalized enough.

The system I'm working on is not really compatable, sadly.

Of course, my system might not be compatable with anything. I haven't finnished it yet!

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 09:40 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

Agreed that X2 should probably occur as a result of the Xorks. And some Dark years are highly appropos.

---

By David Lang (Dlang) on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 09:55 pm: Edit

a couple CCXX would be build for the same reason the B10 was built, but they should be like pre-GW DN's very rare

that way they have active production lines and you don't loose years gearing up for production

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 12:04 am: Edit

The Trade Wars probably require lots of DDXX and FFXX to escort frieghters AND then the odd CCXX to LEAD ( or at least spearhead ) the rare Star Base and Planetary Assault missions.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 10:05 am: Edit

"I disagree in that I'd rather have the 205 advent of X2 tech to keep the timeline correct."

We know that existing ships were busy with the Andros in Operation Unity until Y202.
We know Y205 resulted in an improvement of technology.
We don't have any clear indication of exactly what form the innovation of Y205 takes.
We have reason to believe a period of cold peace occurred after Y205 in which the trade wars flourished.
We know that the next major Alpha threat is the Xorks, but we don't know when or what form that threat takes.

Sifting through the known we could approach X2 as occurring in Y205, followed by the trade wars, followed by the Xork invasion. There are three big problems with this that I see.
1) X2 ships as described make X0, XP and X1 ships obsolete, so mixed generation battles won't be interesting.

2) If we do X2 in Y205 then there is no room left for X1R (X1.5) class ships. We lose the opportunity to ever publish a whole set of modules.

3) Unless the Xorks push their offensive past the Klingon/Romulan/Hydran border there will be little reason for the southern empires to join in galactic defense. The Klingons and Roms might even formally or informally ally with the Xorks.

To prevent problem 1) I have proposed X1R=X(1.5)=X1*1.25 BPV and X2=X1R*1.25 BPV. Put another way X1(CC)=X1R(CM)=X2(CL).

To prevent problem 2) I proposed pushing X2 out beyond Y205. Allowing X1R to be the trade war era ships.

To prevent problem 3) I propose the Xorks blitz through the northern half of the Alpha quadrant, except for the home systems knocking out each Bats like a frigate and extending into Klingon/Hydran/Rom space. With no Bats to mount assaults from the races are forced to create long-range strategic X2 ships to fight the invaders. I've got a Xork timeline in my head but it will take a bit to get on paper.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 01:32 pm: Edit

Another suppose, going back the the naval treaty notions, people built X1R with an idea of higher conversion later, or simply allowing X2 ship be converted from X1R without giving a reason.

I agree that X2 in 205 leaves no room for X1R, but remember X1R is filling out the fleet with X-ships. A X1R CX is better because it is a BCX instead of a CCX.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 02:57 pm: Edit

Revised Timeline: 2003-01-03

Y168-180: (X0) The dawn of the dreadnought and fast warp help spark the General War. The War provides fertile ground for the evolution of military technology.

Y181-193: (X1) The X1 ships are introduced and converted from existing hulls. The temperamental bleeding edge technology requires an exceptional crew, limiting production to approximately one cruiser per year. X1 ships were self-limited to about 10% of each fleet.

Y186-204: (X1B) X1 tech is extended to variant hulls starting with the Fed GSX (R2.204).

Y194-204: (XP) X-Tech begins to trickle down as certain technology stabilizes and becomes affordable to maintain. Partial-X (XP) conversions begin on X0 hulls. X1 production increases (R2.201).

Y205-214: (X1R) Technological breakthroughs in hull design have reduced movement cost significantly and operating cost substantially yielding a new crop of faster more efficient ships. X0/X1/XP ships can not be converted to X1R as their hulls are simply incompatible. X1R uses all X1-tech as standard but improvements such as the Phaser-V and structural integrity field are also incompatible with the older hulls. With the Andro threat eliminated and large quantities of X1 cruisers filled with outstanding crews acting in command roles (35 Fed CXs have been produced by Y204) the Alphas begin this era of construction by concentrating on replacing their smaller, older, less efficient ships first. The war weary Alphas increase the neutral zone size and sign naval treaties limiting new ship deployment. This cold peace was known as the era of the trade wars.

Y215-225: (X1R2) The Xorks destroy most battle stations across the top half of the Alpha quadrant in blitzkrieg fashion but stay away from the racial capitals and most star bases. The galaxy churns out XCC, XBC and XDN classes based on the X1R tech at an astounding rate but they can't effectively counter attack due to the loss of forward bases. They do manage to disrupt Xork supply lines sufficiently to halt the Xork advance in Y225. X0 and XP ships are ineffective against the Xorks due to their limited strategic speed and were limited to defending fixed positions and convoys.

Y226-234: (X2) The key difference with X2 technology is the substantially improved strategic range. The Xorks already had X2 tech when they began their invasion in Y215 and the loss of all forward bases forced the Alphas to develop ships also capable of independent strategic operations. Xork and Alpha X2 cruisers mix significant inter-scenario self-repair and ammunition fabrication ability with the punch of a B10.

Y235-245: (X2) The Alphas pushed the Xorks out of the northern off-map zones and pressed the attack back to their home quadrant but fail to complete the conquest as the coalition of Alpha governments fractured once the imminent threat was gone. X1R and X1R2 ships continue to be used internally as they are far more affordable to maintain than the offensive oriented X2 ships.

Y240-250: (X2) The Tholians, intact from the Xork invasion, felt it was time to retake their home galaxy. Once Federation space is cleared they recall all their ships from the Xork push and begin to build a massive fleet spurring an arms race among their nervous neighbors.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 03:12 pm: Edit

Tos, the DN is available in the EY so it's not the cause of the GW

the four powers war was the beginning of the 'normal' speed ships (opmove 6) but logistics lagged so that the war fizzled out.

the GW became so large becouse the logistics had improved enough to supply the forward fleets.

saying that fast warp sparked the GW is a bit much, those ships are supposed to be a historical footnote, if you way hot warp ships sparked the GW then I could agree with you (all the war classes with their oversized engines)

X1 ships have a production rate of about one cruiser per year while non X ships have a rate of about two cruisers a year (feds and klingons have about twice this production rate)

more later

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 03:33 pm: Edit

As this time line goes I would prefer that X2 tech filter in. You said that X2 tech is incompatable with the older hulls and I think that is fine but new construction X1R ships could be modified to start using some componants. Like just the foreward Phasers being upgraded to Ph-V and maybe getting X2 (4-Point) batteries. A early less efficiant version on the SIF might be fitted to a few new construction cruisers and DNXs.

BTW, reviewing the old supplement 2 I came accross the old nomenclature. X1 ships have the 'X' after their normal designation. X2 has the 'X' before the normal designation.
CCX= X1 Command Cruiser
XCC= X2 Command Cruiser
I think we should standardize on that.
For X1R use the new standard designation or for improved versions (new builds) use CCX+. For versions like I mentioned where there is some up grading from X1R to X2 types use CCXX (representing the few mid-term designs fielded just prior and at the beginning of the Xorkellian invasion).

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 03:47 pm: Edit

I have visions of us finally coming to consensus on what X1R and X2 should be in order to fight the Xorks, only to find out that the Xork fleet is rather primitive , though with very large numbers.

[X2 player: My spiffy Federation CXXX will stand on it's head!

Xork player: Hmm, two shifts then. I guess my Ph-2 won't do much, so I'll just fire the megadisruptors from the twelve YDN. (sound of dice rolling) 19 hits, 171 damage...]

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 03:56 pm: Edit

Tos: I have one negaative comment, that being that the format you are using (X1 X1B XP etc) doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. There is no instinctive way to look at it and know which came first.

Might I suggest a sequence like X1a, X1b, X1c, X1d, X1e, X2a, X2b, etc? It would make it a lot easier to follow!

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 04:09 pm: Edit

Andrew, you are so lucky I wasn't drinking anything when I read that post

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 04:20 pm: Edit

I get his XP idea. It is the partial refit (P) of X0 ships using X1 tech. It comes after X1 in general. X1R is the Module name that SVC said there may be. I think it is a mistake to use that nomanclature as a tech-level. X1R should be the module that XB, XP, XX (Toss's X1R tech-level) appear in. X1R2 should ba a 'C' Module that introduces the Xorkellians and supplies those corrosponding Alpha X ships. That tech level could be XX+.

X2 will be a module that introduces second generation X-ships (and maybe more Xorks?).

One last note, the Year 250 will be fully into the time zone of ST:TNG. I'm not sure that is a good idea. If we start messing with that time zone and diverge even more from the franchise that will be even more discuraging for new players. At least now we can say "This is old Trek whose history is not richely established."

ST:TNG history is richly established and we cannot even come close to mirroring it. I will be a blatant trashing of the franchise. I'm sure a great many established players wont mind but, mark my words, many new players will. Here is what you'll hear: "Year 250? That's 100 years after Kirk and about 20 years after Picard. Where is my Galixy Class Cruiser? What!? Pfft, this ain't Trek!"

This before you have a chance to get them into it. Unless you trick them somehow and that's not really cool.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 08:59 pm: Edit

Here's a question for you all.


Do we actually want to see an X3?


I for one don't, X2 is nice to say this is what futuristic ships will look like (from the end of the Andy invassion ), but let's not go all the way forward into DS9 without a major change in playability.

The Enterprise-E litterally would take all day to cross-off the shield boxes.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 09:29 pm: Edit

No X3. It says so in the rules.

To play those ships and have them compair would be a nightmare to play out. Those ships would require a whole new game pardigm.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 11:52 pm: Edit

"This before you have a chance to get them into it. Unless you trick them somehow and that's not really cool."

Why are you teaching new players X2 rules?

"saying that fast warp sparked the GW is a bit much, those ships are supposed to be a historical footnote, if you way hot warp ships sparked the GW then I could agree with you (all the war classes with their oversized engines)"

You are correct. Fast warp should be hot warp. The DN comment just allows large fleets and I struggled with the mentioning it due to the 4-Powers change. Would you feel more comfortable with: “Y168-180: (X0) The dawn of hot warp helped spark the General War. The War provides fertile ground for the evolution of military technology.”?

“X1 ships have a production rate of about one cruiser per year while non X ships have a rate of about two cruisers a year (feds and Klingons have about twice this production rate)”

Using your information is correct then the Feds are building 4 cruisers for every CX since we know by R2.201 that the Feds built 1 CX/year until Y194.

“but new construction X1R ships could be modified to start using some components”

Perhaps some/most tech could be adapted, but X1R ships could not operate strategically the way X2 ships could in the time line presented. If they could there wouldn’t have been any need to create X2 ships.

“I have one negative comment, that being that the format you are using (X1 X1B XP etc) doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.”

I hate the format. I much prefer X1, X2, X3, X4, Z1 representing X1, X1B, XP, X1R and X2. Even X1, X1B, X1-, X1+, X2 would be an improvement. My favorite would be X1, X1B, X1P, X2, X3. The format evolved due to some off handed comments by SVC without him reviewing what we were actually doing. Rest assured if the concept was bought hook, line and sinker the name of each era would change before publication. Until then we needed some standard, even a poor one, so that everyone would know what generation was being discussed. I’m happy to change to something that makes sense but gaining consensus around here is a difficult thing.