Then there is the annoying cloaking device, come on that's not aggressive. ;)

Hellbores, so maneuver dose not matter when you take damage on the weakest shield no mater where it is.

Fighters, realy, flying coffins, where do they find these one way riders.

PPD's well if I missed the last three times lets see if the forth one will hit.

Scatter packs, Some where a budget officer is screaming over the cost of replacing all the shuttles left behind like shopping carts along the Klingon/Kzinti border.

ECM/ECCM not that, everyone move slower, do less damage, and mess up shifts every three rolls.

Ya there is lots of things that drive us nuts about this game but that is part of the SFB experience. We all want ice cream but not everyone likes every flavor. ;)

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 12:53 am: Edit

There is a lot of similarity in this and the SC4QT so I think I have a few valid points of comparison even though the SC4QT was set in Y180. So here is a list of points.

Web Casters:

You really really REALLY don't want the Neo's having more than one NDD. Since each NDD has a WC that complicates things greatly. Especially on a single map. I had 2x2 and it still would have been excessive. 3NDD with WC pretty much everyone is boned. Now you could do what I did and simply say that each WC is a Snare with L/R arcs and thats that with no BPV change.

Races not covered:
Also you have the Selts and WYN Fish ships to consider. The selts show up later but their ships already exist so a handwavium later they show up X# years earlier and that handles that. The same could be said for the Fish ships and simply say that the X+PF versions for both show up when listed on the YIS.

Addendum: what of the Non fish? WYN have a number of PUR ships that got the Up gun treatment so that needs covering. Simply block PUR "EXCEPT" for Rom KR types.

LDR:
Who would play Lyran if they had the LDR instead? I'd really suggest not allowing limited deployment ships entirely. The WYN are a gross example and the LDR are a mild example of limited deployment ships.

You've already dealt with a couple of my other concerns by restricting things to DD/DW so there are no separated ship sections or other cheesiness. But I would allow FF's and other ships below MC 0.5 as long as they are SC4. Some races simply dont have a combo of ships in the range of reasonable usage for 3-4 ships and stay even close to the CO limit of 15% w/o using a combination of FF's (or others) in the mix.

Building squadrons for the SC4QT really showed me the limits on building 325 squadrons requiring 3-4 ships.

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 01:09 am: Edit

I wouldnt allow FFs. The game is meant to be DDs. Even allowing DWs was a stretch

Every empire can field reasonable ships in the DD/DW range. Some empires can field awesome ships in the DD/DW range.

Im not sure limited ships should be restricted. Kenneth, perhaps some examples of OP limited ships would be helpful?

The LDR already have a restriction in having to take an SC, though even with an SC they will probably win all their battles.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 01:54 am: Edit

I'm a bit concerned this game is being pulled away from its original concepts of "Fun" and "Simple" with all the exemptions, exclusions and modifications being bandied about...

Mike, my advice is to stick to your vision and don't be swayed by too many arguments. SFB players are notorious Tellarites - we love to argue!

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 02:51 am: Edit

The Limited deployment ships are 95% complete simply by naming the WYN/LDR. Mostly limited eployemnt is covered via the ship/empire description. Mon's, NG and Shock ships make up the most the rest with only a couple oddballs scattered among the Alpha empires. I'm not real sure on the Omega/LMC.

There are a couple Omega races that dont have DD type hulls. Trobrin for one IIRC. There are a couple others. the main reason to use a combo of DD/FF is to avoid a mass BPV chunk just sitting that cant be used.

But wave that as a concern if it worries people my biggest "concern" is how things could/would grow. As mentioned in the description what happens to someoen who wants to play some oddball like LMC since they've never had the chance and it might be fun what happens when we bump up and there is no ships for the race in zone X. A very likely prospect for some of the smaller empires of the Omega/LMC.

By Peter Thoenen (Eol) on Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 03:06 am: Edit

Dale: Agree

Jason: You missed Ken's comment on Selts. They suck so could just take vanilla. They only have a DD and SC. [was thinking about taking]

Jason: Ditto with Souldra (Y181). Before I hear any moans the DD is 110 so you are at a distinct disadvantage given you can only field 2 ships @ 220. Also unless you want to give them 5 BPV (or let them take a FF), need to make an exception too allow for 2 ships (Ditto with any carrier squad)

Jason: Exception request, can I take Electron fighters for the Vudar DWV (Y179). In Y175 I am stuck with Klink Z-V's (meaning I am not going to take

Jason: What is a Fed CW(Not in SFBOL). If it's a cruiser I am highly against

By Peter Thoenen (Eol) on Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 03:08 am: Edit

Also I'm in (with plans to switch my race each phase), will send you my builds tomorrow.

By Peter Thoenen (Eol) on Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 03:40 am: Edit

Those were directed at Mike :P

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 04:10 am: Edit

Hivers have a DD, but its the size of a peanut. So should they be allowed to take Dreadnoughts?

This is my point about drifting. I think the move to include DW with DD was enough. If an empire doesnt have a DD or DW perhaps find another empire?

Maybe the LDR should be allowed a DWL, FF and SC to get in under the restrictions...

By John M Ledbetter (Daltwisney) on Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 07:01 am: Edit

Personally, I would just stick with Alpha empires for the first iteration of the game. I know Mike is not terribly familiar with LMC or Omega, but their ships and systems are in no way balanced for combat vs Alpha empires.

Not hugely familiar with the WYN outside tournaments, but as far as the LDR goes, my opinion echoes others: Why play Lyrans when you can play Lyrans with gatlings? If you insist on choosing the LDR, make your squadron fit the game, don't try to force the game to fit your squadron.

By Mike Johnson (Akira) on Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 08:12 am: Edit

Rules typo: I typed Y178 instead of Y175 in secion 7.0 when describing the default year for technology.

By Mike Johnson (Akira) on Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 08:20 am: Edit

Kenneth- thanks for the input. I'm trying to avoid rules exceptions and instead rely on players to reign in their munchkin instincts. I will disallow squadrons that are over the top on a case by case basis but trying to identify and list all possible exceptions in the rules is counter to the "simple and fun" philosphy I'm trying to maintain here. Plus as the campaign effectively regenerates every four months any issues that pop up can get fixed for the next phase.

No FFs allowed. I want this campaign to be as inclusive of empires as possible but no matter ehat I do there will be some that just cannot field an effective force in this campaign.

But I am open to discussion if anyone really likes a certain empire but is struggling to generate a reasonable force.

By Mike Johnson (Akira) on Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 08:28 am: Edit

Regarding web: no web can be established at the start of any player v player battles. This will be the case in most other scenarios as well. Maybe not all but most.

By Mike Johnson (Akira) on Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 08:33 am: Edit

Peter: no electron fighters unless you find yourself in a scenario that takes place Y179 or later (which would allow you to upgrade for that scenario only assuming you had the BPV available).

I meant to type Fed DW, not CW sorry!

Souldra and Carriers: there is not minimum or maximum number of ships specified in the rules so a 2-ship squadron is ok if you want to go that route.

Selts/Wyn: If someone wants to take these empires we can discuss. I see them as similar to the Ne-Tholian; the ships probably were in service before their listed YIS so exceptions to the Y175 rule could be made.

By Mike Johnson (Akira) on Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 08:35 am: Edit

OK we now have about a dozen people in various stages of expressing interest/building fleets/waiting impatiently for things to get rollin'.

The campaign is not limited to any particular number of players so if you're interested let me know by tomorrow please.

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 09:16 am: Edit

<i>Souldra and Carriers: there is not minimum or maximum number of ships specified in the rules so a 2-ship squadron is ok if you want to go that route.</i>

Bring on the Hiver swarm !!

By Troy Latta (Saaur) on Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 10:25 am: Edit

If I choose RYN (Omega), would I be in-network or out-of-network? Makes a difference to the BPV.

By Mike Johnson (Akira) on Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 11:26 am: Edit

Troy, I have no freakin' idea. LOL

Really I do not know what that means other than you might get charged more to make a call from your cell phone. Can you shoot me an email explaining the difference?

By Roger Rardain (Sky_Captain) on Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 02:11 pm: Edit

Mike,

Requesting clarification on Commander's Options.
How much, when to decide, etc. I do not see this info in the rules.

Regardless, I'm in.
Empire selection and squadron emailed.

By Francois Lemay (Princeton) on Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 02:25 pm: Edit

Roger,
You get 15% and can decide by July 18 IIRC .

Mike, will you be listing publically what races players have chosen by chance ?

Cheers
Frank

By Troy Latta (Saaur) on Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 02:28 pm: Edit

I'd have to e-mail you almost the entirety of their R section, and a couple rule blocks pertaining to their stuff, to explain. So I'll just not play them. Simpler all around.

By Peter Thoenen (Eol) on Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 02:29 pm: Edit

Fear my 2xDD Souldra :P (will be interesting with a 125 BP disadvantage yet I will not whine to be allowed to take FF also

By Josh Driscol (Gfb) on Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 02:35 pm: Edit

Ok the RYN

Its empires like the RYN that make omega the freakshow it is.

They have no warp engines. They use transporters to move, but outside there network it doesn't work as well.

Much like the WYN and there radiation zone.

I would say there network is like RYN made terrain, when the WYN leave there cluster they don't get to bring the radiation zones effects with them.

As for the Flivvers since there ships are always very small for the ship class your DD's will probably look alot like biggie sized PF's.

I really have never found any big problems playing LMC vs Alpha octant races, but some to the empires and technology in Omega is very different.

Alot of people may not have all of Omega's rules. I do admit id love love love to see the look on the Tholians face when the Soludra DD's turn on the DPD and waltz right through any web.

Its a great way to playtest the technology against each of the other regions tech. But I know from experience that some of what the omega races have isn't very well tested against LMC or Alpha tech.

Do they really have RYN freighters published?

I could give many examples of Omega tech and Alpha tech having huge problems. My personal favorite is the microphaser. Now in this game armor for drones will be available and that really should make a huge difference for the drone users only. They will still chew up plasma G and F so fast you plasma lovers will roll your eyes.

Im happy to see so many sign up. I expect most will play the Alpha races, so if only 1 or 2 pick Omega or LMC then there going to have a hard time finding a neighboring empire to play for that scenario.

By Josh Driscol (Gfb) on Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 02:38 pm: Edit

Or Soludra Freighters even.

Ill admit they would be fun to see.

By Mike Johnson (Akira) on Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 02:59 pm: Edit

Troy- OK, sorry that it won't work out but I think it is probably the best decision in the long run.

Roger- everyone gets 15% commander's options. I know opinions, and interpretations, of the rules surrounding COs can vary widely so I will add some details and clarifications to the campaign rules.

And yes you will have until the 18th to settle on COs. In fact you have that long to decide on your entire force. That gives us a week to iron out any problems before the start date of 7/25.