Archive through January 07, 2003
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board:
The "X" Files:
OLD X2 FOLDER:
X2 Timeline:
Archive through January 07, 2003
Tos:
From the first few episodes of ST:TNG I have been asked "Does it have the Galaxy Class?"
To many young people ST:TNG is the real Trek. Sad but true. ST:TNG is something I loved but it's not ever going to be apart of the SFU (short of a direct command thundering from on high) nor do I want it to.
My answer has always been "The SFU history takes place before that time."
If the History goes into the 250s that will clearly no longer be the case. That answer is no longer acceptable as a quick read of the History will show. They will ask "Where's my Galaxy Class Cruiser?".
Listen, it's probably not going to be a big deal. But it is a possable problem. And God knows there have been problems over little things that nobody reasonably thought there would be.
I'm just puttin' out the word. SVC knows what's right for the game. He always has and he'll decide.
I'll drop it. It's certainly not important now. There is still a LOT of road between here and X2.
Loren, the only answer you can give is "as far as TNG goes, SFB is an alternate universe."
You can always download one of the 50 or so Galaxy-class SSDs off the internet, of course.
Tos
Quote:X1 ships have a production rate of about one cruiser per year while non X ships have a rate of about two cruisers a year (feds and Klingons have about twice this production rate)”
Using your information is correct then the Feds are building 4 cruisers for every CX since we know by R2.201 that the Feds built 1 CX/year until Y194.
the fed/klingon production schedule is 2 cruisers/turn, it sounds like historicly the Feds replace one of these a year with a CX (so 1/4 of cruiser production would be CX), other races only get 2 cruiser build slots/year so they will be very hard pressed to have both of them be X ships, but if the feds wanted to they could afford 2 CX per year.
the change to the start of the GW is reasonable. are you going to backtrack to include the 4PW or any major items before that?
I wasn't intending too go back any further. The only reason I went back to X0 at all is to have something to call that tech level slightly more specifically than GW. Prior to Y168 I guess I'd refer to as MY, but that's a term that may already have a specific definition. Interesting to note that the unrefitted Fed CA and Klingon D7 are actually MY tech.
Quote:Why are you teaching new players X2 rules?
There is something Michael Strain and I had agreement on:- that a BCH duel is a good place from which to teach new players...on account of the fact that "ships go boom good".
But we disagreed on this idea:- that X ships can be a good place to teach new players because "ships go boom good".
A newbie doesn't actually get confussed by the fact that the usual 6 EW is replaced with 8 or that the usual 4 Mid-Turn Speed Changes are replaced with 6.
He just learns that the ships have 8 EW and 6 MTSC and off he goes.
So too with X2...the changes are improovements over exisiting rules and therefore difficult for regular players to follow BUT for the newbie, these rules which are simply the existing rules aren't all that much more difficult to learn than the MY rules.
Plus the ships go BOOM good.
X2 and X3 and even X4 and X5 can be taught to new players with much more ease; if those are the ships newbies are accustomed to, than, forcing them to learn MY ships because those are the ships that the Teacher is accustomed to.
Note that Y ships are an exception to this because without overloaded heavies, the disission making process becomes much quicker.
You are using Commander's Edition X2?
Or making stuff up to teach them?
Well, were I to not use the verious prescribed ways of teaching SFB, I would use War Cruisers and a year date of 180. Just because you are in the deep water doesn't mean you have to go deep. War Cruisers are not difficult and have, IMO, the proper capability/limitation mix. The game wont be too long and the player can learn every rule without having to let go of any.
To learn with X-Tech first would seem anti-climactic to me.
No Captain's X1...sorry if that was not clear.
Fed CARa+ Vs Fed DDX makes a great Wrath of Khan situation.
Yah, CAR+ go boom.
Andrew:
You're forgetting to give the CARa+ enough Leg' Officers to counter the newly revised BPV.
Heh. I don't think it would add up.
In order for the scenario to actually be the STII:tWoK, then the CARa+ would need:
Starting BPV: 143
Legendary Captain (Kirk) 36
Legendary Science Officer (Spock) 6
Legendary Chief Engineer (Scotty) 15
Legendary Doctor (Bones) 6
Legendary Navigator (Sulu) 8
Legendary Weapon Officer (Checkov) 21
Poor Crew (Cadets) -29
Ending BPV: 206
Though, I think the Enterprise-A is a CB at the very least and a CX is more likely.
A DDX is 170 with the new BPV 
Hmm, but you would add a Legendary Villian to the DDX, so that makes it 212.
What do ya know......it works out. This might just make a nifty April Fools scenario for a Cap Log.
WoK had the refitted Enterprise (i.e. not "A" yet). I think it is generally excepted that that Enterprise is a CCX but for the sake of the next closest thing it should be at least a CB.
Make it a two map senario. One with a small moon and a comercial platform (or something small and unarmed) and the other map a nebula.
To balance the DDX against the CB (upgrade) and stay more true to the original give the DDX the advantage of supprise. The DDX has a NSM abord that adds to the explosion strength but cannot be laid.
That would make for an interesting scenario but it would have to be different enough to not step over the copyright line.
Both movie Enterprises are X-ships.
'Course you can't hear that officially from the ADB because SVC doesn't have the rights to use the movie background.
MJC,
As a new player tutorial, I have found the simplified rules of tournament game works pretty well a a tutorial environment.
I'd think that new players would get too dependent on the advantages afforded by X-ships and might noit take to MY and GW ships.
But hey, what works, right?
Since the Enterprise-A and the other Movie enterprise both have Rectangular prisom based Warp Engine Narcelles and the Original serise Cylinder, one might assume that the First Movie Enterprise is indeed an X-ship...that and in the sixth movie a reference to the Enterprise-A being 20 years old.
Well, way back when X-ships were first introduced in the old Designer's Edition Supplements, the Fed CX was indeed derived from the ST:TMP Enterprise (including 16 Ph-1s), as the Klingon DX was derived from the ST:TMP Klingon ships (which explains why the DX had two photon torpedoes, one forward and one aft). Of course, Paramount Happened, and, over the course of two subsequent editions of SFB, Things Changed.
...and X-tech has been ratchetted back more and more from being god-tech ever since.
Original X-tech would roughly correspond to X2 tech by today's standards.
I remember the original KRX has twin R-torps...
All P-1's did the P-G routine, too, but OL phasers weren't invented yet.
Yup. X1 has become more evolutionary than revolutionary vis-a-vis GW tech (largely due to the progressive development of GW tech providing an evolutionary path from pre-war to X1).
Full-blown revolutionary X2 tech is interesting but jumping straight to X2 without filling out the history of each prior tech level is bound to create unsightly wrinkles in the timeline. It will be far easier to smooth out the bumps if we start from what is known (Y180s) and work our way toward the future outlining each progressive tech level in order. Each evolution of tech needs to make sense and be logical stepping stones on the way to X2.
Tos, you have a good point. It may make more sence to flesh out what X1R looks like and really develop the history of the Andy war before dealing with X2.
Per SVC on Dec 23 (this topic), X1R is X-tech when it becomes fleet-standard tech.
We could do up to 3 periods. The first where production X-tech takes a step back from baseline X1 and its requirement for elite crews and bleeding-edge technology, the second when full-blown X1 is no big deal, and then perhaps play with some some tech advances that eventually becomes a standard part of X2.
To be honest, I don't know if the "step back" ships would be popular. Were I to suddenly posess SVC, I wouldn't want to stock a X1R that was just "step back" ships. Given the time and effort that goes into a R-module, I wouldn't want to field a disappointing X1R mod. I might make "step backs" conjectural or part of a SSJ issue.
The alternative is to treat X1 ships as the new baseline tech and treat the CX as the new CA or CC. Then begin to build the expected array of hulls and variants from there, including DNX's, BCX's, etc.
Ya know what would be nice before any of these get published is a revised X1 rulebook. Just the rule book and new sales of the Module X would include the new X rule book.
Quote:Full-blown revolutionary X2 tech is interesting but jumping straight to X2 without filling out the history of each prior tech level is bound to create unsightly wrinkles in the timeline. It will be far easier to smooth out the bumps if we start from what is known (Y180s) and work our way toward the future outlining each progressive tech level in order. Each evolution of tech needs to make sense and be logical stepping stones on the way to X2.
The logic works okay...but since X2 is revolutionary, you could push it forward enough to not generate an possibility of a wrinkle.
Personnally, I think to be safe, X1R, X1- and X1+ should be printed...if only because 380 BPV Cruisers is SO hated by everybody else on the BBS.
Quote:We could do up to 3 periods. The first where production X-tech takes a step back from baseline X1 and its requirement for elite crews and bleeding-edge technology, the second when full-blown X1 is no big deal, and then perhaps play with some some tech advances that eventually becomes a standard part of X2.
Sounds GREAT!!!
Quote:To be honest, I don't know if the "step back" ships would be popular. Were I to suddenly posess SVC, I wouldn't want to stock a X1R that was just "step back" ships. Given the time and effort that goes into a R-module, I wouldn't want to field a disappointing X1R mod. I might make "step backs" conjectural or part of a SSJ issue.
Step back has the POWER to be very popular because different races would step back with different ideas, and thus reinvent RACIAL FLAVOUR...it could be as popular as Module Y.
Or it could be seens as an unimportant statment about theoretical ecconomics.
I think the safest bet is to mix Step Back ship with other Possibly conjectual ships like the X-CVA and X-Fed PFs. Or Possibly mixing the Step Back ships with the Step Forward ships of the X+ refit!?!
In that way there will be a number of Non Step backward ships for players who don't want step backwards ships to enjoy.
r.e. "step back". Odd that you would use such a term. Using that term I would envision, well, I’m not sure. Could you define it?
To me the missing interim module is where key X0 ships are upgraded to use partial X-tech (XP). I use the term upgrade as applied to existing GW ships. I would think there would be a high demand for your favorite Klingon D5L to have an upgrade path including 4GX-racks, X-Bats and X-Aegis, but without producing, and paying for a full D5X. Who could resist even these limited partial X upgrades for their C7A? While no one ever built a BCHX there is no reason they couldn’t have built partial upgrades near the end of the Y190s. Best yet is the conversion from any give X tech to standard tech can be racially flavored!
Are we describing the same thing by my saying partial X upgrades and you saying ‘step back’ X tech?
Some things that XP would not include:
Upgraded Warp Engines and Movement Advantages:
- Upgraded Strategic Speed
- Improved Acceleration
- X-SOP Movement Advantages
- 6-impulse speed changes and TACs
- Quick Reverse and 6-impulse reverse
- 2 First Use HET bonuses
- 12-impulse post ED restriction
Increased Phaser Count
Overloaded Phasers
Phaser-V
They might include, depending on race:
Upgraded HWs
HW Misfires?
Rapid Pulse Phasers
Rapid/Fast Load HW
X-Drones/GX Racks
Double PPT
Crew Quality
X-Bats
Enlarged Phaser Caps?
X-Fighters
X-MRS
X-Aegis
Various EW/Tac-Intel advantages
X-Scouts
Examples of racial adaptations:
Gorns: With no significant drone threat X-Aegis wouldn’t be installed but the M-Torp tastes good.
Hydrans: Everyone gets the ST-X
Klingons: Since half their ships have Limited Aegis they wouldn’t have much problem upgrading to X-Aegis. They would also find the GX rack very effective.
Feds: They might concentrate on the EW advantages, Special Sensors and perhaps arm ships with X-Photons.
Roms: They don’t need no stinking M-Torps, they have the R. The Cloak could be improved and X-Aegis would be a priority.
I think that's an excellent point. If the Step back ships are fun and unique to play, that would add a lot. X1 ships can be one-dimensional, which is why they got changed.