"but since X2 is revolutionary, you could push it forward enough to not generate an possibility of a wrinkle."

Not quite. If we build a revolutionary X2 we have to create X2 rules. These rules have to be equal or better than whatever comes before. If we write that X2 has 2 standard PPTs limited to speed 40 we can't write that a previous generation has 3 PPT, can regenerate PPTs, can bolt a PPT, has speed 48 plasma, can fire a PPT as EPT or Shotgun, or a host of unknown great ideas we haven't thought up yet.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, January 07, 2003 - 11:24 pm: Edit

Tos,

We need to be clear which realm we are referring to.

X1 doesn't include OL phasers, weapon misfires or P-5's or any of the stuff we've been kicking around.

I would be willing to give X-upgrades ("x-grades"?) the ECCM shift with phasers but leave them with the same 6 points of EW generation.

I would give them *either* X-aegis OR the ability to fire pulsed phasers, but not both. Thinking about it, probably X-aegis between the two. I can't see the powers replacing all the phasers on their GW-era ships (which might nix the ECCM shift idea as well).

All that said, I had considered "step back" ships to be new construction unsing easily produced, simplified X-tech rather than upgraded GW-tech ships. We are talking about X1R, after all.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Tuesday, January 07, 2003 - 11:45 pm: Edit

besides which, there are really very few revolutionary generations of equipment, for every piece of equipment you point at and say 'that was a revolutionary breakthrough' if you look closely there were almost certinly several other similar items that bridge the gap between the old generation and the new (they didn't always sell well, or even work well enough to be significantly better then the previous generation, but the ideas were tried before, nothing goes into mass production without testing)

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, January 07, 2003 - 11:55 pm: Edit

SFB doesn't really have the resolution to cover most "also rans", just the stuff that actually hits the big time.

You'd have all sorts of buzarre hulls otherwise.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 12:03 am: Edit

even in just the major items you still see a progression over time with refits and new models. from the origional sublight roms to X ships is a evolution, why should things stop there? as we continue on to 2x ships there will be a series of smaller steps along the way (again refits to older ships as well as new models better then the old ones, but not as good as the 2x ships

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 08:37 am: Edit

I think partial 1X conversions can do some of this neatly enough. Giving a 0X ship a partial 1X refit of weapons, batteries, engines, etc. would go a long way toward making the ship much better, but without the exorbitant cost of a total X-refit. Take a C9 or Fed DNG, add X batteries, X engines, GX racks and a few other goodies and you get one hell of an improvement at not too high a cost. I can definately see this sort of thing happening to beef up the fleets left over after the Andy war. If you can't build more, make the ones you've got better.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 11:48 am: Edit

"add X batteries, X engines, GX racks and a few other goodies and you get one hell of an improvement at not too high a cost"

The engines probably are the bulk of the cost but the rest of your statement holds true.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Eagle) on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 01:58 pm: Edit

To me development isn't neccessarily a step-by-step thing. In WW2 the Germans (whom I am most interested in in WW2 history) often skipped good and sound designs on the drawing boards, or prototype stage, because other even better ones was at the project stage. Another reasons was the worsening war situation forced them to cancel many promising projects, even at an advanced stage.
Thus the logical steps in SFU technology could for similar reasons, just been built as experiment vessels, or not at all (computer sims).


I think that going the evolutionary way, by rote,
with mod (X0) X1 X1a X1R etc. we might just doing things the cookie-cutter way, so to speak.

Let's consider the SFU history and it's impact on development before we go further.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 03:26 pm: Edit

Refitting a GW ship with X-warp would be a major rebuild of most of these ship. I just can't see fitting new engines to the ship. As I see it engines need to be designed into the ship. The Hull design and engine design taking each other into account.

What I could see is that the avancements would allow modifications to exsisting engins to produce a bit more power. Say 18 point engines on a cruiser, but not more than that. And that's a big step. It gives 60% of the extra power an X engine has.

Additional X-Tech on Gw era ship should also be limited. Putting X-phasers on a ship really would require replacing the entire capacitor system and all the phasers (or serarating the two systems which would be problematic). I could see replacing the main Torpedoes. That would be a major tactical boost.

Among the very obvious upgrades would be the batteries. Transporters would be another as this is a matter of upgraded safty (not represented in game play but a motivation none the less) and has some tactical advantage.

The General rules benefitting X-ships in general should not be applied.

Now, I see the arguement against what I propose as being that the first X-ships were refits of GW cruisers. While that is true it doesn't mean that all ships are able to recieve this kind of refit. Indeed the rules state that they could not. Partial refits seem an obvious thing. With out the Organians taking away all the WAR ships I don't see why the Empires would just toss away their ships that are otherwise in good operating condition. But fleet wide upgrading of ships to full X or nearly full X tech I just don't see happening.

It's just too expencive and problematical. Obvious improvements make a lot of sense. Just adding X-Batteries would go a long way to improving any GW era ship.

Note however: new construction of GW type ships would halt and all NEW construction would be geared towards X-Hulls.

Oh and all this is just my humble opinion.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 03:36 pm: Edit

Carl,

(this post was written simultaneously with Loren's)

Why?

We're not actually planning X1R. We're just providing hopefully interesting foundation material for SVC and SPP when they get around to X1R and X2. From a wargame perspectve we can abstract most of the false starts and failed prototypes by ignoring them. Not strictly historical or Real-World, but hey, its a wargame.

Besides, that's what was done in EY. No need to knock ourselves out bogging down in details.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 03:40 pm: Edit

Let me clarify something about my previous post. I don't believe taking an existing hull and slapping X tech on it will work. When I said applying X conversions was an option, what I mean is to apply those changes to new construction of an existing design. If the Feds are building a new DN, they could easily work the X changes in while building. You get the best of both worlds; an established design with no messy testing and time consuming design issues, plus the benefits of X tech in some areas the ship needs it. No way could they add those changes on to an existing hull, though; that much we agree on.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 04:09 pm: Edit

But after the production of X-ships, I can't see any of the Empires building new GW era designs. They would have to be compleatly new designs so what you would have is an DNX. I don't poo on this possibility, that could be the rout taken. If you were to build new, why would you have any old technology on it.

However, exsisting hulls are just that, exsisting. And to keep them useful some minor changes/upgrades seems likely. Otherwise, you would have to retire them or scrap them because they just wouldn't fit into the new era and just endanger the crews.

Take the Fed DNG. Upgrade the engines to three 18 pointers (this is due to a upgrade to individual parts and better power generation routines learned from x-tech). Replace the Photons with X-Photons. Give it X-batteries on a two for three basis (two X replacing three old). Upgrade the drones to GX-racks. That's the kind of changes I'm thinking of. No faster exceleration or double control or extra HET bonus, etc, etc.

This would breath new life into old designs without being too expencive and time consuming. And with out going overboard.

Oh, BTW, I would be fine with just 16 point engines but some races have 16 point engines already so that's why I think 18 is the way to go.

Lastly, I think we did creat something in this topic: X1R is not a concept I'd ever heard before. So, we did good no matter what.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 04:57 pm: Edit

I agree. I think we could come up with a suite of minor changes that would keep ships competetive without spending a lot of monye on them.

I mean, races have changed out war drives before, but they're usually romulans. (thinking of WB->WE->KE upgrade line)

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 05:20 pm: Edit

MJC: "No way could they add those changes on to an existing hull, though; that much we agree on."

Check your facts: (X0.0) "... X-Ships produced during the period Y180-205 were all conversions of existing designs. Some were converted from ships in service; others were converted during construction."

(R2.201) "In Y181, the command cruiser [CB] NCC-1749 Vincennes was converted ..."

Ships could and were converted from X0 to X1 tech so there is little reason existing ships and new construction could not be converted to XP tech.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 05:45 pm: Edit

Expense is a reason. The GP's needed X-ships for the ISC and Andro wars. After the war they might not be so willing to go whole-hog.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 06:18 pm: Edit

Tos: First that comment was not by MJC.

Next, it is also stated in the rules that other hulls were not suited to the conversion so there is some ambiguity there.

I suggest being open to ideas but being conservative.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 06:27 pm: Edit

Yup. When I say they can't be converted, I mean they can't because of expense or other compatibility issues. Sure, you can slap a triplet of 20 point engines on a DN, but I don't think it's suited to it, necessarily. Building one from the keel up, maybe...but not as a refit. Just my opinion, but that's my take on it.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 06:33 pm: Edit

The only thing stopping a DNX from being built from the keel up is expence. The CCX is so good at what it does there is no justification (as stated so far in the history). The Xorkellians might change that.

If the Xorks have a big enough ship, I would love to see a XDN. The Andromedans almost justified one with the Dominator. If the Xorks show up with a bunch of those types, arrrg, we better have some XDNs!

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 06:42 pm: Edit

I've got one, somewhere. If I can dig it up, I'll post it. As I recall, it was pretty darn nasty.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 08:06 pm: Edit

Apologies to MJC for using your initials in vain.

I concur with Mike that upgrading the warp engines and providing a smattering of miscellaneous X-upgrades would produce a ship so close in BPV to an X1 ship that we wouldn’t really be filling a gap.

The Fed CB is 162 before loading drones. Say 170 with drones. The Fed CX revised BPV is 240 with drones. That’s a 70 BPV difference. The XP with drones should look very similar to the CB but with the partial X-tech it should weigh in about 200-210. That might buy some combination of +10 BPV for batteries, +4 BPV of GX racks, +12 BPV of X-Aegis, +10 BPV of Rapid Pulse P1s (single cap), +12 BPV of X-Photons. With just these mentioned enhancements we are already at 210 before buying X-drones. Bumping the warp to 36 would add an additional 24 BPV, which drops us off, when loaded with drones, equal to the CX. OK, so my upgrade numbers are too high, but the point is still sound: we can bump X-capabilities or improve the warp but we can’t do both without negating the economic advantage of XP. If one has to go I vote to nix the warp and keep the X-Gizmos.

“Next, it is also stated in the rules that other hulls were not suited to the conversion so there is some ambiguity there.”
In (R0.200) it states that the BCH cannot be converted because these designs were at their absolute limits, in some cases overloaded to the point where they receive shock (BCJ, KH). There is no specific rule I know of that excludes any other ship but If we follow the same logic we should be ok.

Most of the ships worth converting will either be new builds or newer builds. That means we will mostly see DW, HDW and NCA class XP ships.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 08:27 pm: Edit

You'll probably find that most "wartime production" hulls are at their limits too.

hence the argument about the D5X. I belived the CWX's were all redesigned for X-tech and never converted.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 08:27 pm: Edit

Tos, if you upgrade everything on a XP ship you would also end up with a ship _very_ close to the capabilities of a X1 ship

don't figure the XP ships having all the upgrades, take the CB and give it everything but the warp upgrade and you ahve a ~216BPV ship whic does fit nicly between the CB and CX. it's definantly superior to the CB and definantly inferior to a CX

HDW and NCA ships should not be candidates for XP upgrades, they are like BCH's and already upgraded a LOT from the base hulls. CA's would be good candidates, CW's and DW's would not be bad, DN's may work, but DNH's would probably be stretching it.

an XP version of a hull should be slightly better then the maxed out GW version of the same hull, but not so much better that that maxed out version couln't still win with a good captian and a little luck

so
a DW(XP) should be slightly better then a HDW
a CW(XP) should be slightly better then a NCA
a CA(XP) should be slightly better then a BCH
a DN(XP) should be better then a DNH, but still not as good as a BB

By David Lang (Dlang) on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 08:31 pm: Edit

the limitations on 'war' hulls have been pretty much eliminated at this point

origionally the war hulls were optimized for combat at the expsnse of maintinance, service life, peacetime duties, etc with a few exceptions (fed NCL for example) but over time the powers that be have eliminated most of these 'drawbacks' and the result is that they are just newer designs and better, more effiant ships then the classes they replace.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 09:06 pm: Edit

David: I agree with your analysis, X-Goodies without the warp puts the ship square in the gap. Now all we have to do is:
1) Make a full list of what is X1 tech
2) Sort it into possible XP and not XP
3) Sprinkle in some racial flavor
4) Calculate BPV for each upgrade
5) Draw up some sample SSDs
6) Figure out approximately how bad the X1 BPVs still are
7) Move on to XR

Not so sure I agree on what classes would/could receive the upgrades though. I'm concerned that most of the base hulls are either no longer in production or in line to be converted to variants. I'd like someone with an F&E background to clarify what is historically being built in the Y180s.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 09:13 pm: Edit

Making late war ships like the war cruisers into X ships, if you follow the standard conversion rules, and you run a very real risk of making phaser-boats. If further proof be needed, look at this...

Federation DNX

That's the standard conversion. Hell, it's even a few phasers short! Should have 21, and it only has 18. A more "reasonable" DNX would (IMHO) have the following:

1: 20% increase in shielding
2: 3 point batteries
3: Very modest increase in phaser capability, but more on the defensive side.
4: Standard engines.
5: No HET bonus, but it could still move with other X ships in the order of precedence.

I think that might be a better start for such a ship, if it were to be real. I'll happily make up any SSD's of other sample ships, if anyone wants to put up such a thing. Email me if you're interested.