Indeed, the strength of the orion is to kill the opponent in close combat.

BTW, FFgff and similar packages use reinforcement much more than possible with Photons and HBs. They also allow for easier time cloaking.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, May 31, 2011 - 05:44 pm: Edit

Brendan wrote:
>>Thanks for all the advice fellas. I can really feel the gatling love in this topic.>>

Well, the thing is that the gatling is just sooooo stupidly good (overpowered?) in the Orion. 1 power for 16 damage. Every turn. On a weapon that never gets destroyed (as you have 6xP3 and 4-5 P1s to take hits on before the gatling goes...). And every game will inevitably see the Orion overrun or fight a stopped knife fight, where the gatling is pure gold.

Some people take packages without a gatling, but usually just 'cause they are bored of the gatling and want to try something kooky, not 'cause the package without the gatling will ever actually be better.

>>However, I am pretty convinced that the PPPff is more than adequate. I personally like the option of R4 shot with the 3rd photon vs ESG armed opponents and the like as opposed to having to get to R2 or less to make the gat as effective.>>

Well, again, the problem with the PPPff package is that it is really expensive to arm the photons, even for the Orion (who isn't allowed to start with any free overload energy), and really, what makes the Orion really strong is the ability to have all that extra stupid power for tractors and reinforcement. With 2x photons and a gat, you have a lot more power to work with. And you are going to overrun someone eventually anyway.

>>I've seen the recommendations for the FFgff or 11 or some combo thereof, but for the life of me can't figure out how to fly it or whom I would fly it against. Perhaps some advice in this area would help me "see the light" >>

Pick up whatever Captain's Log that has Paul's Victory At Origins article with the Orion and you'll see what it does. Basically, it launches some F torps, makes the opponent do something about them, and has 20 reinforcement all the time. And eventually overruns them with a gatling.

>>I can certainly see the appeal of the HHgBB (or B1) but that seems as though that would be another close and kill style package similar to the PPPff I currently revel in.>>

The HB is the good one for mid range fighting (i.e. against Big Plasma or whatever). You can take down a shield at R5 or so, run away, not take internals in return, shoot HBs through the down shield a couple more times, and eventually overrun them with a gatling.

>> Is there a more 'stand-off' style package for the orion that is viable? what about a PPD with an F and two fusions? >>

Not that are good. The PPD is horrible for the Orion. It takes up two slots that could both be Hellbores instead.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Tuesday, May 31, 2011 - 08:13 pm: Edit

The gatling has drawbacks too; it is worthless outside range 2 and takes up a heavy weapon slot.
This has the effect of tempting players into range two to get some use out of the gatling. This kills them as the opponent can fire at range three and run away (takes timing and reserve power, of course).

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, May 31, 2011 - 09:55 pm: Edit

Carl wrote:
>>The gatling has drawbacks too; it is worthless outside range 2 and takes up a heavy weapon slot.>>

Well, at R3, it is about as good as a P1 (4 average damage for 1 power) but if it rolls up, can do a significant amount of unexpected damage (I've taken, like, 8 damage from a single gatling at R3 more than once. Which blows).

And yeah, it takes up a heavy weapon slot, but it costs 0 to hold (and only 1 to arm), never gets killed, and does as much damage as an OL photon inside R2. And as noted, all games will, at some point, be at that range. Especially if someone is an Orion.

I mean, yeah, it does have a trade off factor. But there is a reason that the vast majority of Orion packages include a gatling.

By Douglas E. Lampert (Dlampert) on Wednesday, June 01, 2011 - 12:44 am: Edit

The Gat is a reasonably energy efficient way to deal damage out to range 15. It's an energy efficient way to kill drones or degrade plasma at any range.

The fact that the damage drops off a cliff between range 2 and 3 shouldn't obscure the fact that the damage was so high to start with that it's still actually decent at range 3.

As for firing at 3 and turning off, possible but tough to manage when the Orion has more power during the overrun, can afford to move 31 at closest approach, and has movement priority.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, June 02, 2011 - 08:32 am: Edit

Doug wrote:
>>As for firing at 3 and turning off, possible but tough to manage when the Orion has more power during the overrun, can afford to move 31 at closest approach, and has movement priority.>>

Oh, sure. I can't imagine that an Orion is going to be habitually trying to fire at R3 and leaving--that is generally too close for this sort of shenanagin (R4 is about the same damage most of the time, and safer). So the gatling isn't generally going to fire at R3. But if it comes up (i.e. you see a down shield on someone stopped as you fly by, and they are all like "Huh. All he has to shoot at me is the gat, and it is R3, so who cares?"), that R3 gatling shot can be brutal. I mean, it can also do nothing. But as it fires every turn for 1 power, and the expected damage is about 4, it isn't risky to fire and if it rolls up, your opponent is very sad.

By Brendan Lally (Brendan_Lally) on Thursday, June 02, 2011 - 11:55 am: Edit

So I tried the HHg1B package the other night on SFBOL. I fired the gat end of T1 (imp 32) @ R2 and also managed to get a battle pass at the end of t2, again firing the gat. It certainly proved its worth.

I did make a maneuver mistake early on T2 which allowed 8 additional dam through an open shield which took out a HB with a second drone hit and I was feeling a little like I should have taken 2 B racks. However, early T3 i managed to get to R1 on an open shield and the gat again proved its mettle as part of a sevenxP3 strike.

I was also somewhat fond of the HB's ability to provide additional volleys on the DAC. As this was only my third serious foray into flying the TBR, I sense a conversion to blue and white may be coming over me. (Interstingly, those colours also match St. Andrew's cross) I may also be "seeing the light" as it comes to the gat as well.

I may also have to reconsider the PPPff package I am so strongly in favour of, as my poor ability at maneuver means I usually can't end the turn at R1 or R0 allowing a fusion desert to the photon entré.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, June 02, 2011 - 12:04 pm: Edit

My buddy Dave won the Saturday Patrol tournament at Origins a number of years back with the PPP1f Orion that, generally speaking, had every single game go like this:

T1: Corner dodge, overload photons.

T2: Go speed 31, get to R4, shoot someone in the face with 3xOL, 5xP1. Do a bunch of internals. HET, run away, don't take any internals back.

T3: HET back at them when they aren't expecting it, fire a bunch of phasers and the fusion through the down shield. The game is probably over now.

So it certainly can work. And did well for the really fast games that you need to play for Saturday Patrol (i.e. play, like, 7 games in 12 hours was how it used to work...). But I suspect that it does less good in games that don't have the time issues involved.

By Chris Proper (Duke) on Monday, July 11, 2011 - 06:02 pm: Edit

Brought to you by the guy who thought it would be a good idea to go with pfc and minimum shields, and use the savings to arm a second enveloper.
One key advantage the Firehawk holds over the TKR is the extra forward hull. When is it worth it to use damage control to fix the first couple of hull hits? Typically I'd fix an early left warp hit as awr, but buying extra padding seems just as effective.
Any takers?

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, July 11, 2011 - 06:52 pm: Edit

With only the 4 dam-con, you are probably better off fixing a couple P3s and a Plasma F, which the hull doesn't really protect anyway, and maybe an APR, which the hull does, but 1 extra APR is going to be worth more than 1 extra hull, even if that 1 extra hull saves another APR.

I fix hull all the time when I'm playing Omega games with the Alunda giant space squid, but then, it can fix 12 boxes...

By Andrew J. Koch (Droid) on Monday, July 11, 2011 - 06:58 pm: Edit

Hey Chris...remember that time I center-lined you at range 15 with my Lyran and did 12 internals through your minimum shields? Good times!

By Chris Proper (Duke) on Monday, July 11, 2011 - 08:59 pm: Edit

This sounds like less-than-rousing support. Dude! that was a Firehawk. It's cleverer with a TKR.

By Andrew J. Koch (Droid) on Tuesday, July 12, 2011 - 12:02 pm: Edit

In our Ithaca Cup game last summer I also got some in through your TKRs minimum shields. Less internals, so yes, cleverer.
Hopefully though, Bakija doesn't see fit to put us into another octagon cage match this year. I would like a game that last less than 5 hours for once.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, July 12, 2011 - 12:03 pm: Edit

Enter. The. Octagon!

By Chris Proper (Duke) on Tuesday, July 12, 2011 - 12:27 pm: Edit

TKR loses forward hull way before aft hull. Consequently, the Apr isn't broken so I can't fix it. If I lose an impulse then I'll repair it as apr, but the idea is to fix a couple of forward hull to pad batteries and impulse. Saving two repairs for an F-torp and an Emer is prudent, but the TKR has more p3s than a Firehawk.

By Troy Williams (Jungletoy) on Friday, July 15, 2011 - 05:36 pm: Edit

Need some tactics for Lyran v. Roms. I use Greg's CL43 article very effectively against other races but the only plasma listed in the article was ISC. I've got the basic no-no's for plasma in general but would like to leverage the years of experience of the sharks that will most likely be chewing on me in Platinum Hat. Thanks in advance!

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Friday, July 15, 2011 - 06:05 pm: Edit

Wait, Sharks don't have plasma, they have disruptors and drones... Oh, you mean players, not WYNs. I guess there are a lot of both in this tourney.

A few basic tactical notes for the Lyran:
- The ESGs will discourage opponents from cloaking. they can also discourage anchor attempts. They will otherwise be difficult to use.
- With 40 power, you can move fast as long as you aren't putting too much power into weapons. Take advantage of the flexibility of your disruptors. You have a pretty good phaser boat. OTOH, if you stop to weasel, you have power to smack him with OLDs.
- A BP ship can kill you with one big hit under the right circumstances, while the Lyran generally can't. So don't sell out your position for one big hit. Play conservatively.

By Mike Johnson (Akira) on Friday, July 15, 2011 - 06:46 pm: Edit

Troy- run into the plasma, it's nice and cozy and warm. Envelopers make a great place for kitties to nap.

I mean yeah Andy's right you should be able to run out the big torps with standard disruptors and that 40 power. Never close to point-blank if the plasma ship is fully loaded, but the truth is you want to get close- playing the range 15, or even range 8, game isnt going to seal the deal. You need to get offensive use out of your ESGs.

How do you accomplish this? Consider leaving your disruptors dry, using power for speed, tractors, and reinforcement of a flank shield. Assuming you can catch your opponent the same turn, you can afford to eat 50 pts of plasma on that reinforced shield. Get close (R1 or less) and anchor HIM.

I know this sounds counter intuitive but if you have an opponent tractored you can raise esgs at his range but not let them hit until a time of your choosing- say movement on impulse 32. Follow that with phasers on the same impulse, maybe a suicide shuttle or two, then overloads on impulse one of the next turn. Voila, one sliced and diced plasma ship.

If your opponent waits until you get close to launch, take the R3 ESG/phaser shot and run. In either case YOU are controlling the pace of the game and the engagement range. Don't let the plasma ship force you to stay at range while he cycles his plasma- let him launch one or two heavy torps, run them out a bit, then charge!

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Friday, July 15, 2011 - 07:47 pm: Edit

What Akira has described is essentially the "Hack & Slash," which does not traditionally require the use of a tractor beam.

At R0 the ESGs do 40 damage, the same as two plasma-F torpedoes; at all other ranges they do less. If you have to eat those plasmas to get that close, you're gaining nothing much. Romulan ships have lots of phaser-3's, and with you having no seeking weapons and only 2 ph-3's, being inside R2 shifts the firepower balance in favor of the Romulan. The Lyran has better ph-1's than any plasma ship (even the Gorn due to better arcs) so the phaser firepower favors the Lyran most at range 3-5. If you're planning on getting close AND winning an auction, you'll have to leave your disruptors empty. I'd rather have standard disruptors and no tractor than the other way around. ESGs are very vulnerable to damage, and by the time you've waded through a couple of plasmas and a bunch of phasers to get to R1 or R2 where you can anchor, you've probably lost one.

Further complicating the super short range hack & slash is the fact that plasma ships always have a bunch of hurt ready to fire on impulse 1, and if you've anchored the plasma ship at R0 or R1, you are going to have to eat that plasma on impulse 2 before you are able to weasel (since you can't weasel on impulse 1 if you're firing). You're also running the risk that the plasma ship will anchor you instead, preventing you from weaseling at all, and if you don't get loose from the anchor you're likely to have to eat more plasma on the following turn.

Generally, plasma is a power-efficient weapon and disruptors are a tremendously power-inefficient weapon. Getting involved in a tractoring duel will generally reduce the disruptor ship's firepower more than the plasma ship's, even though the disruptor ship has more power to start. For the Kzinti and WYN this can be OK, because so much of their firepower comes from no-cost drones, but for the Lyran, Klingon, and low-drone WYN, there is not enough drone threat to make up for the firepower lost from disruptors.

ESG vs. cloak is another situation where the Romulan is a little better off than you might think. The ESG ignores the cloak, but it doesn't make any of your other weapons work any better. The ESG will give you a lockon, but only for a moment, and unless you are at R0, you will probably not retain the lockon. Also, the activation cycle on the ESG can give the Romulan windows where it's safe for him to cloak.

By Mike Johnson (Akira) on Friday, July 15, 2011 - 08:46 pm: Edit

Yep the hack n slash it is. The problem is trying to end a turn at close range, which is solved by the anchor. Of course if you can arrange it without the anchor so much the better.

40 pts of plasma on a non-facing reinforced shield is definitely not equal to 40 pts of esg damage at R0. The plasma ship gets no slash in that case, and you do. And if you lose one ESG on the way in and the other gets reduced by a shuttle or two you still have plenty of phaser power to knock that shield down.

I'd also like to point out that I advised against closing with a fully loaded plasma ship. If the plasma ship has already used a heavy torp or two and you eat 40 on the way in it doesn't leave much to worry about when you get there.

Anyway you have two opinions here Troy- take your pick. But remember if you choose the more aggressive path to pick your time of approach carefully!

By Troy Williams (Jungletoy) on Friday, July 15, 2011 - 09:53 pm: Edit

Cool (slips off cross trainers and slips on kitty ballet shoes) thanks for advice! I figured the ISC with TR would a little different than all plasma engagements. I've seen pretty standard plots for the Roms, is there anything I should key-on turn 1 like the rom corner dodging or will the Rom be looking to close, launch, rinse and repeat with the Lyran?

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, July 15, 2011 - 11:31 pm: Edit

Troy wrote:
>>I use Greg's CL43 article very effectively against other races but the only plasma listed in the article was ISC. I've got the basic no-no's for plasma in general but would like to leverage the years of experience of the sharks that will most likely be chewing on me in Platinum Hat.>>

There is another Victory At (the number the issue of which I can't remember currently) which is Ken in the Lyran fighting against, like, 5 Big Plasma ships in a row. He goes into great depth about theory and shows it in practice in a bunch of games. Anyone know what issue that is? It is high 30's, I think.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Saturday, July 16, 2011 - 01:09 am: Edit

Sensible plasma ships never corner dodge on turn 1. Orions sometimes cloak on turn 1, but Romulans generally will not.

The real question is whether the plasma ship will anchor or ballet (and a careful plasma player is looking to anchor on turn 2, not turn 1, as on turn 1 an anchor depends on an opponent blunder). If ballet, you can expect a medium-range EPT followed by turning off. If anchor, you might see almost any other plasma launch except the medium-range EPT. There are also plasma players who will play guessing games with pseudos, usually taking the form of two launched S's which are typically one fake or sometimes both fake but rarely both real. The main difference between an anchoring plasma ship and a guessing-game plasma ship is what they do after the launch, an anchoring ship is looking to hit you with his remaining 70 and a guesser is looking to reload, or switch to ballet mode.

By Chris Proper (Duke) on Saturday, July 16, 2011 - 08:51 am: Edit

I flew lyran for a decade, then switched to plasma. Plasma can make a few mistakes while the lyran has to stay on top of it.
Roms like to launch 60 (enveloper ballet or guessing game) at 13 and turn off. Movement is sprint and drift: close to launch position at 31 then separate from the torpedo by decelerating and maybe turning off. If you choose to pursue you have to bull through the torp without any expectation of reaching overload range. This is a game of board position and damage mitigation.
The lyran wants to move every impulse after 19, say 16/31/26. Even if you don't have overloads you better look like you have them or the Rom is going to take the guesswork out of it for you. Ideally you want to set up the kick-hack-and-slash. Ram with esgs, then fire all of your phasers, allocate and fire the disruptors. Finally weasel until the post-destruction launches stop.

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Saturday, July 16, 2011 - 03:44 pm: Edit

Hmm. In the LYR vs Big Plasma matchup, to me saying "After I ram him with the ESGs, I plan to..." is similar to saying "After I hit him with the drones, I plan to...". Sure it's nice when it happens, but generally you are eating a lot of plasma to make this happen. If the BP player is less skilled or makes some mistakes, by all means go ahead and Ram, take full advantage. At the same time, it's probably wise to have a strategy to win the game without ramming, as it doesn't happen successfully all that often.

Peter's referring to Origins 2005, the writeup was in CL 32. Out of 7 games, 5 were against BP (includes games against Ralph, Lee, and Allen - some pretty good plasma players in there). In those 5 games, I rammed my BP opponent exactly zero times.

You do not need to ram to win, and more importantly, if your mentality going into this matchup is "I will ram him with the ESGs no matter what!", it will more often than not get you into trouble.