The NTC isn't pink.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Tuesday, August 23, 2011 - 12:30 am: Edit

The NTC is actually not all that much tougher. I flew the Neo at first because of its so-called toughness, but it really didn't help. Once in a tournament I came up against an ATC; I decided to rely on my "toughness" and heavier firepower and go for an anchor (complete with 2 suicide shuttles). I achieved the anchor, and lost. I don't remember what went wrong, but I know that my toughness didn't save me. Realistically, no Tholian is going to win taking damage down to his last 15-20 boxes, that sort of business is for D&D ships, or a plasma ship in the right part of the cycle. So the Neo's better performance in this category is largely irrelevant.

Although the NTC has one more total hull, the unbalanced aft-heavy arrangement is so massively worse than center hull that the ATC really has the superior hull. The total number of boxes is not that much greater either. The missing snare hurts a lot. Because of the aft-heavy hull, the NTC actually loses its impulse about the same time as the ATC, even though there's more of it (after about 15-18 internals, you are taking impulse and battery hits instead of C Hull hits).

Phasers are another category where the ATC is superior. The Neo does have one more total phaser mount, but 7+6 is not as good as 8+4, especially when you consider the arcs. It seems like the Neo has great arcs, but they aren't so great hiding behind web, where the ATC is typically firing 7 or 4 phasers, and the Neo is firing 5 or 2 in the same situations. The Neo has a 2:1 or 4:2 advantage firing out of the #4 shield, but it rarely comes up. The rear centerline shot is also rarely used except in overruns or against plasma, and Tholians, generally speaking, do not want those circumstances. P3s work kind of the same way, but not quite as bad because at least you have one or two that fires to the front. But Tholians are usually firing to the side, and there it's either 4:3 ATC advantage, or occasionally a 5:4 Neo advantage.

The Neo is really just plain worse. It is not in the bottom of the barrel with the LDR and Fed, but it's not close to the ATC. It is much more stylish, and that is really the only thing better about it.

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Tuesday, August 23, 2011 - 11:15 am: Edit

Whoa there, don't be calling the Fed the bottom of the Barrel! It's mediocre, not awful ;)

By Andrew J. Koch (Droid) on Tuesday, August 23, 2011 - 02:59 pm: Edit

the Neo is below the fed

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Tuesday, August 23, 2011 - 06:53 pm: Edit

The Fed has three good matchups (the Neo, LDR and Hydran), three that are close to even (the Lyran, Seltorian, and Orion, and maybe the ATC), and a whole bunch of bad ones. And of the six ships that the Fed can beat, two of them are themselves bottom-tier and only the Orion is above average.

It's also nearly auto-lose against a whole entire food group. And although it actually improves the RPS situation mathematically, from a metagame perspective, the dice dependence means you are unlikely to get too far in a single-elim bracket without getting hosed by dice.

In short, the good matchups aren't all that good, the bad matchups are really bad, and you see the bad matchup ships a whole lot more. In any given tournament, are your opponents more likely to be a Romulan, an ISC, and a Kzinti, or a Seltorian, Neo-Tholian and LDR?

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, August 23, 2011 - 08:54 pm: Edit

A Fed CF would completely change this dynamic.....

Let's hear a "woot!" for the Fed CF!

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Wednesday, August 24, 2011 - 03:34 am: Edit

bleet!

I mean... woot!

By Andrew J. Koch (Droid) on Wednesday, August 24, 2011 - 08:08 am: Edit

The Fed could totally take the Tartar!

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, August 24, 2011 - 09:53 am: Edit

More woots! =)

Andy - yes. The Fed coult take the Tartar. Even the current Andro could!

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Wednesday, August 24, 2011 - 11:30 am: Edit

Dude, the Fed Kills Orions more dependably than almost any other ship. It's the ship I least want to see when playing an Orion. Hands down.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, August 24, 2011 - 12:35 pm: Edit

William wrote:
>>The Neo is really just plain worse.>>

Oh, sure. This is a total given.

If I were interested in playing a Tholian for pure competitive purposes, the ATC wins every time. As it is a million times better at doing the stuff that makes a Tholian good than the Neo is. Ok. We got that out of the way.

There has to be *some* advantages that the Neo has over the ATC, other than stylish design and spacious interiors.

-13 phasers. This has a lot to recommend it. I mean, yeah, worse P1 arcs (5xP1 over most of FA rather than 7; 7xP1 directly ahead rather than 8). The NTC has P3s to protect the front P1s in the #1 where the ATC doesn't; the NTC can fire 10x phasers directly backwards where the ATC can only fire 6. In most of RA, the NTC can fire 7x phasers where the ATC can only fire 5 (although in the #3/#5 line, the ATC can fire 8).

-Beefier. Not a lot, to be sure, but something. 14 hull instead of 11 (?). 5 batteries instead of 4. 40 power hits instead of 33. Which is something. Yeah, the 3 extra shields on the back give the ATC a leg up some here, but still.

-FA disruptors. Yeah, still, unlikely to come up a lot. But something.

-More power when under speed 21. I can imagine that the NTC will do well to move 4/14 a lot to avoid having to shoot drones. When spending that 12 power on moves, the NTC has 28 power to use; the ATC has 25. When moving a reasonable speed 15, the NTC has 25 power to use; the ATC has 23. Given the webs, it seems like the Tholian in general can relatively safely move not that fast in a lot of situations; I know that standard operating theory for the ATC is "move speed 28 all the time. Maybe 21 if you need to", but moving speed, like, 15 a lot (or 4-14 to weasel some drones on the map to save phasers) seems like the Tholian can do ok. 'Cause of the webs.

Really. I'm just trying here :-)

By Timothy Mervyn Linden (Timlinden) on Wednesday, August 24, 2011 - 03:53 pm: Edit

Fed kills Orions? Think I've only lost to my friend Lee once in a practice game, and I'm not actually sure I didn't pull it out anyhow. There was one game at Origins where one fed opponent manuvered excellently and kept getting a range 3 shot on my #5, but kept not shooting it because he thought I was waggling it at him hoping he'd fire at a reinforced shield (wasn't, I made a manuever mistake and he capitalised on that expertly).

Still, he took that r3 shot instead of the r1 I was finally going to get(as he knew he'd lose that exchange) - and only hit with 2 photons. Game over. Even 3 would have still given me a decent chance unless he got really lucky with the internals.

Although I suppose there are still good tactics that could give the fed a good chance. There are a couple of things I do worry about when doing the standard charge to r1 swap and win.

By Timothy Mervyn Linden (Timlinden) on Wednesday, August 24, 2011 - 04:03 pm: Edit

One of the old Canadians (from Hamilton) played a mean Neo-tholian. He did well at Origins and other places during the 90's, although he never got that far in the finals.

He generally moved to the center, then spent the rest of the game mostly going 4/9 splits and dodging in and out of his webs. He was excellent at placing his webs and manuevering, patiently wearing down the opponent until the knife fight started. The slow speed meant you had the power to recharge stuff and have some brick, and your central position meant you could maintain a good mid range battle if the opponent kept running away.

The problem with this strategy (hammered into myself and Lee when we tried it) is that you MUST be excellent at web placement and slow manuevering, pretty well much all the time. One blunder could wreck you fairly badly. Given some of the matchups means a reasonably long game, it just meant being perfect a lot more than other ships. And it showed, as usually at some point he'd make that mistake, lose the game and be out.

Still, it could be (and was) a fun challenge.

By Andrew J. Koch (Droid) on Wednesday, August 24, 2011 - 04:18 pm: Edit

4/9 would cause an uproar nowadays

By David Zimdars (Zimdarsdavid) on Wednesday, August 24, 2011 - 04:34 pm: Edit

I think the Fed has always been slightly underpowered. It is rather mysterious to me to compare the power on the FED (38), KLI (39), HYD (40), and LYR (40). Of course the FED gets to hold his torps and gets some free overload energy, and can fly reasonably fast on his first photon barrage (but he still can't fly as fast holding his overloaded torps as the LYR can fly shooting standard disruptors). Once the FED fires his first barrage of overloads he really can't arm his torps, phasers AND move without making a big compromise on the "off turn" (note that the FED has to put a lot of power into the photons on the off turn; the HYD, KLI and LYR can heavy (most) of their heavy weapons unpowered for a turn if it suits them.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, August 24, 2011 - 04:38 pm: Edit

Problem is, the Fed upgrade is hotly disputed, both in terms of need and how to make it happen.

We need a CF.....

By Andrew J. Koch (Droid) on Wednesday, August 24, 2011 - 05:11 pm: Edit

I think 40 power is a winner if we cant get a CF

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Wednesday, August 24, 2011 - 05:46 pm: Edit

I'm pretty sure that I had an extremely good record against the Fed, when I was flying Orion. Only remember losing once(Brook at Totalcon).

My general observation from flying the Fed a lot, is that your fine as long as your opponent isn't smart enough to just flat out run you over. The fabled Fed alpha strike is vastly overrated.

By Koen van der Pasch (Croga) on Wednesday, August 24, 2011 - 05:57 pm: Edit

Fed vs. Lyran comparison goes awry as soon as the Lyran starts recharging his ESGs. Those things drink more then a Parisian Clochard.
Where the Fed needs to put power into his Photons on off turns, the Lyran needs to put power into his ESGs.

By Brook J. Villa (Brookie) on Wednesday, August 24, 2011 - 06:17 pm: Edit

"I'm pretty sure that I had an extremely good record against the Fed, when I was flying Orion. Only remember losing once(Brook at Totalcon).

My general observation from flying the Fed a lot, is that your fine as long as your opponent isn't smart enough to just flat out run you over. The fabled Fed alpha strike is vastly overrated."

Wow, that was a blast from the past. Also, if you remember in that game. There was one impulse that I moved and you didn't(speed 25 for me, and speed 26 for you)I hetted and got on your un-bricked rear shield and hit with 3 full ol and rolled well on phasers. In addition, I had put a few points into tractors which was the reason I won. After the blast you came at me and attempted an anchor.

I agree with the assessment that the fed alpha is vastly overrated. It really isn't a game winner as much as people think. The Fed, imho is lacking, and is in need of a small upgrade.

By Troy Latta (Saaur) on Thursday, August 25, 2011 - 09:47 am: Edit

I know this is probably a dead idea already, but wouldn't the G-rack give the Fed a little more effective power, since he won't have to recharge his phasers so often?

By David Zimdars (Zimdarsdavid) on Thursday, August 25, 2011 - 11:12 am: Edit

There is a non santioned Fed TCC with G rack for playtest on SFBOL, I think.

The G-Rack will act as an extra hit padding the Fed phasers, at a minimum.

It will have some impact killing Wyn, Kzinti, and Klingon drones. A question is loadout restriction - if you can have any combination of drones or ADD, then 8 ADD will be pretty effective. If restricted to only 2 drones and 4 ADD, it will be not as big a deal.

It would help out the Fed some, tying up one or two opponents phaser for a turn or two, or allowing the Fed to save up to 4 phasers. And then its done.

It would kind of exacerbate the problem with the Fed - win quick or you are dead (just hard due to the energy curve to fight 8 turns and get 8 effective photon shots out, for example).

I actually like to play the Fed every so often - I'm sentimental about the source material - so I certainly would not look a gift ADD horse in the mouth, though.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, August 25, 2011 - 10:22 pm: Edit

Dave wrote:
>>There is a non santioned Fed TCC with G rack for playtest on SFBOL, I think.>>

Yeah, we have been messing with that for a few years now. Paul won (non-sanctioned) Council of 5 a couple years back with it, but all indications are that the G-rack was mostly completely insignificant in the games he played (in the semi-final we played, the grand total effect of the g-rack was making me shoot a P3 at a drone before I lost 'cause on the last possible internal he scored from his last possible weapon, he hit my second tractor 'cause all my phasers in arc were dead...).

>>A question is loadout restriction>>

The version that was most commonly supported (and used for most playtest games and all the ones in the tournament, IIRC) was 2xIM, 4xADD, no reloads or drone points.

I was a big proponent of this plan. It seems like it helps the Fed out a little bit--it gives modest drone defense, sucks op a phaser or two against non drone opponents, is at least somewhat useful in all matches, doesn't hurt the Fed power wise, and protects an important P1.

By Andrew J. Koch (Droid) on Friday, August 26, 2011 - 10:10 am: Edit

I think a g rack would be acceptable, but in lieu I can't figure out for the life of me why it doesn't have 40 power like the other df cruisers.

By Koen van der Pasch (Croga) on Friday, August 26, 2011 - 10:19 am: Edit

Andrew;

The Fed isn't like most DF cruisers:

- Tholian needs power for WC
- Hydran... well.... has more power drains then a leaking battery
- Lyran has ESGs
- Klingon has less efficient phasers and doesn't have 40 power but 39

The only ship that is somewhat comparable in power needs is the Kzinti and that has 38 power, like the Fed.

I can definitely see what it has 38 power and not 40.