The problem I had with the old hold rules was that it didn't work like NWO boxes do. One of the hold choices, for example, was a hull box plus six BP's. Another was 2 inactive shuttles, etc. I can see having four NWO boxes on a 2X ship, and possibly even some racial option mounts.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 01:15 pm: Edit

Sorry, I don't mind the NWO slots. The whole modular thing with HDWs is what I hated.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 03:38 pm: Edit

I'm with Cfant - I really detest NWO's. Rom 3rd gen modularity is cool, HDW style modularity is a pest.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 09:51 pm: Edit

About Structural Integrity Fields.


I was thinking that we need not have one number controlling the power cost for the S.I.F. but rather like sheilds we could have two levels marked with two different values on the SSD.

So the rules wouild be:-
When the structural integrity field is powered; each box of the listed type takes two points of damage to destroy unless the point of damage attacking the SSD box is the last point of damage in the volley in which case it shall only require that one point of damage.

An active S.I.F. will not block transporters.

If the SIF is powered with the first number in the ship's data then the following systems shall be strengthened and thus take two points of damage to destroy.
HULL
EXCESS DAMAGE
CARGO
BARRACKS
ARMOUR

If the sum of the two numbers in the ships data are used then the ship shall have strengthened the following list of SSD boxes in addition to the list above.
LAB
CONTROL BOXES
SHUTTLE BAY BOXES


This works like Shields in having a low powered and full powered setting and allows for choice and allows for simplicity.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 10:04 pm: Edit

Hmm. To complicated to keep track of.

If you must have an SIF, then have it powered like PA panels, standard/reiforced. Say, 3/5. That get's you 6/10 points of "armor" that can be repowered each turn. Put a 10 box track with a divider at 6 on the SSD. As internals are taken, mark off a box. At the end of the turn, erase the damage taken.

It must be powered during EA at least to low, then can use reseve power to bump it to full if needed. You cannot reinforce it futher with reserve power.(meaning you can't use it like a shield and pump 1:1 power into it to absorb more damage)

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 10:06 pm: Edit

That's the best I've seen yet, Chris. How about power cost, repair cost, and size class restrictions? That is, if it's 6/10 on a cruiser, what about on an XDD or XFF?

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 10:18 pm: Edit

Well, you could say that the SIF is taken offline when the last hull box on the ship is destroyed. I would think it hard to reinforce a hull that has already buckeled.

As for repair, it is repaired along with the hull. As long as one box remains, the SIF functions.

I would actually say that:

2/4power for 4/8 points of streangth for XFF.

3/5power for 6/10 points of streangth for XDD.

4/6power for 8/12 points of streangth for XCL.

5/7power for 10/14 points of streangth for XCA.

6/8power for 12/16 points of streangth for XDN.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 10:21 pm: Edit

What ya think?

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 10:42 pm: Edit

I though the hull doesn't start buckling until you start taking excess damage hits, and that the field doesn't kick in until after the ship took damage (first the blast, then the hull breach, then some of the crew get sucked out, then the field turns on.) But, maybe that's just Franchise technobabble.

In SFB terms, it sounds like the SIF would add another housekeeping cost to the ship. It also seems like a SIF would act in many ways like a PA panel (power it up, it absorbs damage, then bleeds the damage off into space)

Could the decision to apply the extra power be made when the ship takes damage, like shield reinforcement? If so, I can see players gambling with their power "I can burn 2 batteries and get 2 shield boxes, or burn the same two batteries and get 4 points of SIF strength. Is the DAC roll going to hit weapons or hull?"

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 10:51 pm: Edit

No no.

You are in a XCA

You power the SIF during EA, lets say at low level so you pay 5 power. This would allow the SIF to take 10 damage before internals are scored on the ship.

Sometime before you take or after if you like, that XCA can reinfoce the SIF to full, paying 2 more power. Now, you can take a total of 14 damage before internals are scored on the ship. If the SIF has already taken 10 hits, then there are only 4 left for that turn.

You cannot dump battery power into the SIF while taking damage to reinforce it more.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 10:52 pm: Edit

But, the SIF would act as armor, so damage would be scored on it before the ship loses a weapon or a hull box or anything.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 10:56 pm: Edit

The advantage to "double damage taking" with Hull boxes Etc. is that you get an effect that counter balances what happened in X1...that is a 50% increase in the number Phasers over the CA of that race.

You reclaim the Mizia, as you become long on hull but you phaser and Heavies can not be strengthened through the feild.

If we go for the ten box track then we beef up the effective strength of every single box on the SDD ( including heavies and phasers, which suddenly like SFG take two hits to be destroyed ) and we really should be clawing back the ability of X ships to stand mizia volley upon mizia volley...back to being level with the old CAs.


As a side note, I think that the S.I.F. should be powered with a very slow reaction compaired to sheilds.

That is you power it during EA or with reserves and then 4 impulses latter, it jumps up to the allocated level. If you power it in one turn and not in the next, you'll get four impulse of protection ( perhaps 2 impulses of low power and 2 of full ) carried over because you didn't have them during the first four impulses during which you powered them.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 11:00 pm: Edit

I thought you could dump 2 batteries to bring the SIF up to the reinforced level? Can't go any higher, but there are two power settings, right? So you can get 4 armor for 2 power.

Does a SIF protect the entire ship, or just the hull/cargo/excess damage boxes?

If it only covers specific areas (hull,cargo,etc.) then it would generate more tactical options for the player. "Where do I put the power?"

If it covers the entire ship, and you can reinforce it just before rolling on the DAC, then there wouldn't be any reason not to power SIF reinforcement before shield reinforcement. "4 armor for 2 power, or 2 shield boxes for 2 power?"

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 11:02 pm: Edit

Chris, I like it but for one thing. I think the numbers are a bit high, and here's why. With high numbers, there are some weapons that won't be able to damage the ship at all...something SVC was adamant about not having happen. The DN, with 16 points, can even take an overloaded photon. As for buckling hull, I think it's more likely to apply that rule on the first excess damage hit. Hull, IIRC, isn't really related to the structure of the ship; it's just a measure of incidental things like crew quarters, bowling alleys, 10-forwards, etc. Pare back the numbers a bit, eliminate the SIF on the first Excess damage hit, and maybe make it an H&R option, and I think it's a winner! Good job!

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 11:34 pm: Edit

Jeff......you can't raise it to reinforced level while taking damage, you would have to do it in the Impulse activity step I think.

That way it is not a reserve 7th shield.

I like the way Mike it thinking.

Perhaps the track should be max 12 and work down, so...

DN, 10/12
CA, 8/10
CL, 6/8
DD, 4/6
FF, 2/4

Put a H&R box on the track. It goes away with the first excess damage hit scored.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 11:52 pm: Edit

A couple more questions:

If the field will always be 2 boxes for 1 power, then maybe it could allow any amount of power up to the maximum, not just "either 8 or 10 on a CA, but never 4"?

Do I understand this part right: When damage comes in, first it strikes the shields. When they fall, then the SIF absorbs some of the damage that would otherwise be internals?

At 10 points, a DN standard level would make the first OL disruptor bounce. SVC has said he doesn't like that effect. What if the SIF "leaked" and could only stop up to half of a given volley? After all, once the shield drops, the next hits start wrecking things, with or without a SIF.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 12:26 am: Edit

I don't like the idea of dial-a-shield. It would give too much flexability. With a set, 4/5 power required, it makes you plan ahead a little, but gives you the option of bumping it a little before damage it taken on a later impulse.

Hmm.....we could handle it like PA panels.

If on normal levels, then no leak, but it stops less damage. If the SIF is reinforced, then you always get a leak point, for every 4 points say.

So, if a DN has a 50 point shield, and a 12 point reinforced SIF, let's say it takes 58 points of damage and it out of battery power(scary): The shield takes 50 points, the other 8 would normally be internals BUT, you have the SIF. So, you apply 3 points to the SIF which is at reinforced levels(leaving 9 hits remaining), the 4th point is a "leak" point that does an internal, the next 3 points are applied to the SIF(6 points remaining) and the 8th point does another internal.

With this system, you'd still do damage, and an overloaded weapon up close would not just bounce off. So, say an OV Disr hits for 8 points though a down shield but a fresh SIF(new turn)...if not reinforced the SIF would soak up all 8 points, but if reinforced it would take 2 'leak point' internals......hmmm, that doesn't sound right.


Ok, new line of thought. Any internal damage does 1 internal before applying anything to the SIF. Then the SIF leaks on every 5th point(?). So 2 OV Disr hits through a down shield on a DN with a fresh SIF at reinforced level(12). The Disr do 10 points total.

1st damage point goes to the DAC for internals.

2nd-5th damage point is absorbed by the SIF.(SIF now has 8 points left).

6th damage point is a 'leak point' and goes to the DAC.

7th-10th damage point is absorbed by the SIF.(SIF now has 4 points left).

If 11 damage were done, then the 11th point would have been an internal. So, the 2xDisr did 3 internals, and soaked up 2/3s of the SIF for the turn.

That sounding better to folks?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 12:26 am: Edit

I'm very sorry but I don't care for this and I'm not going to just say that and not offer a reason.

First I would like to note that Structural Integrity Fields already exsist. It is mentioned in the rules and SVC has specifically stated they exsist. They are built in to every design. X1 ships have improved SIFs that make much of what they are possible. Any presentation will meet his mentioning this, I bet.

OK back to the current proposal. I was said that it is like a Power Absorber. Not like, it is a power absorber except it doesn't take degrigation and can be hit and run. It can't be hit on the DAC except for when the ship is already dead in the water and you don't have to deal with the power, it just disappears. It's a super power absorber. At least there is only one.
I don't know SVCs mind but I'll bet he will say something to this effect.
Also, I think regerative armor is going to make these ships super tough. Every turns total damage MUST exceed the top value or the ship never takes damage while any X1 or GW ship can get peppered down at long range. The result is that in an equal BPV battle a GW ship will never win and X1 will almost never win. Actually, on an open map, the early ships will only win if the X2 player lets them.
At range 22 the X2 player need only bide his time and wear the others down. Even using leaky shields wont help.
Would anyone allow a ship that could repair 12 damaged systems every turn for 5 or 6 energy? That is the effect of this.

Sorry, I had to say that. It's the way I see it.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 12:29 am: Edit

Structural Integrity Field Proposal (SIF)

Effect:
· A ship equipped with SIF technology can generate a Structural Integrity Field.
· Each point of power applied to the SIF protects two hull/lab/barracks/command hits rolled on the DAC. The SIF offers no protection to any other type of DAC hit.
· The SIF is destroyed and ceases to function immediately on the first Excess Damage hit.

Power:
· Power applied to an SIF is effective only for the current turn.
· The field can be powered to any strength with a maximum allocation equal to the current DamCon rating.
· Power can be added to the SIF during the energy allocation phase. Reserve power can be added during the impulse activity phase but any increase in field intensity is not effective until 4-impulses after the power is applied.
o The 4-impulse delay only applies to the increases in power applied.

Turn Break:
· Any damage received or strength remaining in a SIF from a prior turn is ignored during the current turn.
· Over a turn break any reduction in allocated power to the SIF will reduce the effectiveness of the field to the lower level immediately.
· A ship maintaining the same SIF power level as the prior turn will have the field fully effective immediately and does not experience a 4-impulse delay.
· A ship increasing its SIF power level over the turn break will immediately gain the full effectiveness of the SIF at last turns level. At the beginning of impulse 4 the SIF will be at full effectiveness.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 12:36 am: Edit

I have posted a couple versions of the SIF. I don't like them at this point. What I did like is that they only protected hull/cargo. The reason is that Hull/cargo are structural material that the force field holds together. I never thought of the SIF as being able to protect circutry and when a phaser gets hit that's a big part of what is damaged. The same for all the other systems.

I really want my above post to be a statement of it's own merrit. That's why I didn't offer a counter proposal. I would never Poo poo anything to support my own ideas. I do have a new idea that is subtle. I been concirned about the SIF (including my own previous ideas) would make uber ships out of X2.

Tell me if you are interested. I sent it to Mike R. before all this and I know he incurrages the sharing of all ideas. But if you guys would rather debate the above post first, I'll understand. Or ignore it all together.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 12:51 am: Edit

I'm just offering up ideas. I think I agree that the SIF should only protect solid things, like hull,cargo,barracks,lab,c&c.

As far as the PA thing, I just think that would make it easier to keep track of. And it would make for a different ship. Not just a new spin on an old idea.

Loren, post away man.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 12:52 am: Edit

Hmm. I really don't like the idea of being able to dump in as much power as you want. There should be a limit somewhere.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 12:53 am: Edit

Lets put all the proposals on the table, clearly define and identify the viable options and discuss the pros and cons, mix and match the good points of each and eventually arrive at a concensus.

"I really don't like the idea of being able to dump in as much power as you want. There should be a limit somewhere."

My 12:29 post represents one such proposal. In that proposal the maximum power you can allocate is equal to your current DamCon rating. I do agree that some reasonable limit is necessary.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 12:57 am: Edit

Missed that little tidbit. I like it.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 01:11 am: Edit

Cfant is the one I wanted to hear from.
This is a copy of the proposal I sent Mike R., entitled Advanced Structural Integrety Field, before I ever read Cfants proposal.

In all the SIF ideas passed around, including mine, I've had this nagging feeling that there was Uber ship potential involved. Something that might not be fully quantifiable in battle and may make the X2 more powerful against certain types of equal BPV. This wouldn't be good.

I think I have come up with a way to evenly protect the hull and reflect a real world process better.

You charge the ASIF and this absorbs the first of each four hull/cargo hits. Reinforced it absorbs the first of each three. There is a off SSD box for hit and run raids. Each type of hull/cargo would have it's own ASIF box and each box absorbs independently though all are charged as one system (I'm thinking 2+2). Mono Hull ships would have two ASIFs for their hull and absorb two hits on the first four (or three if reinforced) and one for each group thereafter.

Three type hulls (Fore, aft, center) would get all three types and have an advantage but this would be reflected in their BPV. But no by much because these ships tend to a few of each type and therefore is probably self balancing.

So the typical X2 Fed. Cruiser would have three ASIF boxes (marked F, A, C). NWO are protected if they are hull, cargo or barracks and are protected by the Hull type ASIF where they are located (or the Cargo ASIF if they are cargo).

If there is no hull/cargo undestroyed a charged ASIF will absorb one damage point per volley where that point would strike it's type of hull.

I think this allows the hull/cargo to be more durable but on a smother scale. The hulls take damage along the way and it continues to protect the rest of the ship by virtue of absorbing one point per volley (if it strikes Hull/Cargo). A one point volley might still strike a weapon or power.


Does that make sense? What do you think?

LK

P.S. This is still designed to balance the 1.5 power warp engine type I'm using. BTW I'm planning to have Federation Saucer Warp not to be able to go 150%. Other races will get 16 point engines. Basically they will all generate similar levers of power.

Mike asked me some questions and I offered this example:
ASIF example: Eight hits on the aft hull. The first is ASIF absorbed. Strike three to aft hull. One more gets absorbed then more three hit aft hull boxes. This is per volley. Note: There is a added durability against Hellbores and PPDs in some circumstances.

If any of this isn't clear, please ask. One of the things I like about this is that it takes no accounting except for EA and as you apply damage. When the hull runs out you get one free hull hit each volley. I do want to add that I think that the ASIF should become non-fuctional with the first Excess Damage hit. Most proposals have included something like this and I think it's at least one thing we can agree on.

Lastly, so there is the normal SIF that all ships have built into the design and cannot be H&R or damaged, then there is the ASIF that augments the standard SIF. Two points of power seems reasonable to me since that can raise 158 points of shield on a X0 CC.