That's nice and all but what would a DNH(XP) SSD look like?

Assume XP means no added phasers. No added warp. No added shields.

Times up. It would look like a DNH with the number 3 in the battery boxes (and a higher BPV). The difference is it would fight with an enhanced set of rules and these new rules alone will kick butt.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 09:27 pm: Edit

Let's bust this conversation out of the timeline thread and start an XP thread.

Done.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 09:36 pm: Edit

X1 designs don't really have a huge number of phasers - they are better phasers, but the total number doesn't increase much over late war designs and in some cases is actually lower.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 10:19 pm: Edit

Wha? Well I'll be. Andrew is right. Most races CCH have the same number of phasers as their CX. Some are moved around the hull and upgrade P3s to X-P1s but overall it is astoundingly close.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 11:14 pm: Edit

fed construction is
2xDN hulls, 4xCA hulls, 2xNCA, 24xCW, 2xHDW 16xDW,10xFF per year
klingon is
1xDN, 5xCA, 2xNCA, 16xCW, 2xHDW, 12xDW, 2xFF
kinti is
1xDN 3xCA, 2xNCA, 6xCW, 2xHDW, 10xDW

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 11:44 pm: Edit

So the CW rules followed by the DW. Everything else is small potatoes. Thanks, that helps.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 11:09 pm: Edit

Sorry - posted in the wrong thread.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 01:56 pm: Edit

Revised Timeline: 2003-01-13

Y168-180: (X0) The dawn of hot warp made the General War economically and strategically feasible. The War provides fertile ground for the evolution of military technology.

Y181-193: (X1) X1 ships are introduced and converted from existing hulls. The temperamental bleeding edge technology requires an exceptional crew, limiting production to approximately one cruiser per year. X1 ships were self-limited to about 10-15% of each fleet. The Feds built 35 CX class ships between Y181-204.

Y186-204: (X1B) X1 tech is extended to variant hulls starting with the Fed GSX (R2.204).

Y194-204: (XP) X-Tech begins to trickle down as certain technology stabilizes and becomes more affordable to maintain. Partial-X (XP) conversions begin on X0 hulls. X1 production increases (R2.201).

Y205-250: (XR) Technological breakthroughs in hull design have reduced movement cost significantly and operating cost substantially yielding a new crop of faster more efficient ships. X0/X1/XP ships cannot be converted to X1R as their hull design is simply incompatible. X1R uses all X1-tech as standard but includes improvements such as the Phaser-V and the structural integrity field. These advanced technologies are also incompatible with the older hulls.

With the Andro threat eliminated and large quantities of X1 cruisers filled with outstanding crews acting in command roles the Alphas begin this era of construction by concentrating on replacing their smaller, older, less efficient ships first. The war weary Alphas increase the neutral zone size and sign naval treaties (think Treaty of Washington) limiting new ship deployment. This cold peace was known as the era of the trade wars.

Y215-234: (XR2) The Xorks invade and destroy most battle stations across the top half of the Alpha quadrant in blitzkrieg fashion but stay away from the racial capitals and most star bases. The galaxy churns out heavy XCC, XBC and XDN classes based on the XR tech at an astounding rate but they can't effectively counter attack due to the loss of forward bases and inferior strategic speed. They do manage to slow the Xork advance and disrupt supply lines sufficiently to halt the Xork advance in Y225. X0 and XP ships are ineffective against the Xorks due to their limited strategic speed and were quickly destroyed defending fixed positions and convoys.

Y226-234: (X2) The key difference with X2 technology is substantially improved strategic range, at a much higher economic cost. The Xorks already had X2 tech when they began their invasion in Y215 and the loss of all forward bases forced the Alphas to develop ships the equals of the Xorks capable of independent and sustained strategic operations. Xork and Alpha X2 cruisers mix significant inter-scenario self-repair and ammunition fabrication ability with a mighty punch.

Y235-245: (X2) The Alphas pushed the Xorks out of the northern off-map zones and pressed the attack back to the Xork home quadrant but fail to complete the conquest as the coalition of Alpha governments fractured once the imminent threat was gone. XR-tech ships continue to be used internally as they are far more affordable to operate and maintain than the offensive oriented X2 ships.
The Tholians, intact from the Xork invasion, felt it was time to retake their home galaxy. Once Federation space is cleared they recalled their ships from the Xork counter attack and begin to build a massive fleet, spurring an arms race among their nervous neighbors.

Don’t get too picky about the names of each period. The names will surely change before printing but we need a common framework to ease discussion.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 03:03 pm: Edit

for XR simply say that the changes were so drastic taht it was cheaper to build new ships from the hull up then to try to disassemble the old ships and rebuild them

there should also be a X2P period

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 03:24 pm: Edit

Let me note several things.

First, Tos Crawford has no idea what the Xorkellians will be or what their technology will be or how the war with them will go. He is fabricating his own history based on his own ideas with no concept of what SVC might intend.

Second, I am getting very annoyed with the term "bleeding edge technology". Could you please use the correct term "LEADing edge technology". Especially as "bleeding edge" has no accurate meaning in the case of technological development.

Third, I do not recall anything that indicates that the Tholian Holdfast, by itself, is going to return to the Tholian home galaxy. There is no reason for them to do so since the actions of the Seltorian Tribunal are sufficient to indicate that there are no Tholians remaining in the Tholian home galaxy. Any left there, whether soldiers or civilians, were exterminated by the Tribunal. Since the only logistics base the Tholians have to work from is the Holdfast, you would have to posit that they managed to get their Dyson Sphere mobile again, or they would have to conquer and construct a chain of bases from the Holdfast to their home galaxy. There are not enough Tholians in the Holdfast to accomplish the latter, and I am not aware or any intention on SVC's part for the Tholian's Dyson sphere to leave any time soon. So logistically, there is no chance of a Tholian attempt to retake their home galaxy. Unless you are positing that the Tholians build their own "hive ships" to support such an operation, and even if they did so, their population base would no more support an attempt to attack their home galaxy than it would an effort to sieze the Alpha sector from its current denziens, i.e., forget it.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 03:47 pm: Edit

I don't get where any of the basis for X2 ships is coming from. Everything is conjecture at this point anyway. No body should be posting timelines or anything even remotely official looking save SVC and SPP.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 03:59 pm: Edit

The only thing I can recall is that the current rules mention a second generation of X ships popping up after Y204 (I think.) I'll agree that we cannot make up timelines, but I think (and correct me if I'm wrong, anyone) that part of this discussion was to sort of work out any technology gaps or progressions between X1 and X2. If X2 is revolutionary technology, there may be no in between. But, if its more evolutionary, there might be something in between. I'm not advocating this (my personal choice is for the revolutionary tech change) but I believe that's where much of this discussion came from...it's a means to an end, a way to define X2 and give us a sort of framework to go from. I apologize if I've misrepresented anyone.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 04:08 pm: Edit

See, I see it more like this...

GW leads to X1.(180-19?)

X1 expands to cover more ships and classes.(19?-205) Some GW ships are in mothballs and beginning to phase out. Others, CA,NCL,BCH,FF are all converted to X-tech.

X1 leads to X2.(205-215)

So, the only 2 types of ships we need are current ships fully upgraded to X-tech. Not hard, basic hulls are already done, we just need a few more base hulls and then varients.

Then X2 comes along and is a completely different kind of ship.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 04:53 pm: Edit

Steve:
We are creating a proposal based on a series of presumptions and compromises between the participants in this conversation. For the proposal to be coherent it needs a framework. This topic is designed to provide a framework that allows everything to fit into the known history. Basing a series of technology assumptions without a background history or timeframe did not allow for a constructive discussion. We tried it, it didn’t work.

The very nature of what we are doing is hypothetical and interacts both with the known and the unknown. We are making up something evolutionary that seems logical to us. It is fully recognized that any framework we come up with here may be completely ignored by ADB; I would go so far as to expect it. But maybe, if we get lucky, we will create something, in whole or in part, that is useful by ADB. Until then, no harm in letting us pretend to be game designers.

Bleeding edge is a common Information Technology term meaning the adoption of technology that hasn’t proven itself. It means beyond leading edge. Companies who adopt bleeding edge technology bleed money trying to implement it. I can see where a person from a military background might assume a somewhat different meaning to the term so I will gladly revise it in the next posting.

The Tholian thing was added in to create a threat. By this time the Alpha quadrant has already been invaded by the Tholians, ISC, Andros, Selts and Xorks. The Xorks, in the proposed history, basically crushed the northern races. To prevent the Romulans and Klingons from simply splitting up the crippled Alpha sector after the Xorks leave we needed a new enemy. The Tholians because of their geography and defensive posture fit that threat role nicely, though I suppose we could have some other conquest race invade from the south if you would prefer. Historically that timeframe is so far out as to be irrelevant to the actual discussions taking place.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 04:58 pm: Edit

I think it is valuable to discuss ideas for the time line. There is already a published time line but that will change as per SVC. It may be similar or compleatly different. There will be Trade Wars which may be similar or compleatly different.

I like some of the ideas Tos puts forthe. I would make some changes (particularly to the designations. Supplement 2 stated that X1 has the X after the designation and X2 has the X before the designation as in CCX and XCC respectively. XP could then be CCXP and so forthe. I think it is a good idea to stick with this established guide line since it is a game mechanics thing not a game play rule.

I really can't see the Tholians returning to their Galixy since it was the Seltorians that were their tool for conquering such an empire. I posted a thing about the Tholians capturing some Seltorians and trying to genetically re-sequence them to obay them. But failed due to good foresight by the Seltorian Elders. Any change to a Seltorian DNA causes the DNA to break down reduring them imune to genetic resequencing and cancer. This, however, has the effect of halting evolution in the Seltorian species. This also put a halt to the Tholian expansionist plans(the reason for trying to genetically alter captured Seltorians) and so they remained cozy in the Holdfast.

X2P? Nah.

X1R with X2 tech? No thanks. X1R should be the filling out of the fleets by way of old thinking still involved (as far as Fleet arrangement goes) with new built hulls(X1P=older hulls with x upgrades). X2 should represent the new pardigm of design and thinking only to be shaken not stired by the Xorkellians.

Lastly, all IMHO.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 10:07 pm: Edit

bleeding edge technology works, mostly, most of the time.

a good example in SFB terms is the old misfire rules for fastloads, mostly they worked (enough to be useful and worth installing even at the cost), but sometimes they had unexpected problems.

Loren, X2P would be X1/X1R ships that are on the way to being phased out in the X2 era that get partial X2 refits, just like XP is X0 designs getting a new lease on life by way of an infusion of X1 tech

I really think we need to plan for an X2 phase for ships, if nothing else (assuming we are sucessful enough at this) players will want to have their favorite X1/X1R ship get 'just a slight upgrade' to be able to deal with that X2 pirate in his smaller ship

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 10:47 pm: Edit

I see your point. I would really like to see the XP thing happen. I think it would be great fun. Even if I didn't get to play them it would be cool just to inspect the module.

X2P doesn't float my boat, however. I sort of want X2 to be a break through to a new era. The X1 era is a sort period of advancement and XP showes the rapid changes taking place. THen suddenly, bam, X2.

This is just me. I would rather not see TOO many products. So far the is X1 and we are hoping to see XP, X1R, and X2. There will be a Xorkellian C-module I'm sure and that may have some X (whatever) stuff too. I love this game but I do hope it has some kind of limits.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 12:47 am: Edit

The GW has ships scattered between at least 17 modules.

We are covering the following eras with new modules:
Andro War: XP
Trade War: XP, XR
Xork War: CX, XR, XR2, X2

In total that’s XP, XR, CX, XR2 and X2. Five new modules to cover two and a half wars doesn’t seem excessive compared to 17 modules for one war. To just publish CX and X2 would seem insufficient to provide this 50-year period with the detail SFB players have grown used to.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 01:26 am: Edit

There are some assumptions in that. First, I would agree that XP would begin during the time of Op U. But X1 is in full swing at this time. X1R would be after Op U and X1, XP, and X1R would feed into the beginning of the Trade Wars.

The big assumption is that the Organians will not have anything to do with what goes on and I'm not sure about that. I think they've been slated to be involved some how. Previously they took away all the war ships and held them in stasis. Then widened the neutral zones to when the Empires were just the core worlds. The Trade Wars begin as the conflict over control of trade with the newly independant worlds in the neutral zone. The Fleets are super limited so the Admirals say "If we can only have a few of them then they will be gems" and X2 was spawned.
The next assumption is that X2 will be for the Xork invasion. That probably will not be the case. The Xork invasion will prompt changes is fleet outlay for sure but I think X2 will come before. I think it will come from the Trade Wars still.

I don't really know. I don't think that those eras will be covered that way.

Ah, but that wasn't really your point was it? Well, I had to comment on the first before the other. The GW is a huge thing over a long time. I covered many, many classes of ships and all those modules covered a little more than the GW. The Trade wars, IMO, wont need but one or two modules. I don't know what the Xork invasion will require. X2R maybe what is needed for that (after X2). What I was complaining about was X2P. I don't need a between module for X1R to X2.

Blahhh. I'm rambling. Sorry.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 01:52 am: Edit

Loren, how many ships per race do you expect there to be? remember that a single module that covers all races is not going to allow more then a half dozen ships per race

with two modules can we really get by with 6-12 ships per race for the entire trade wars?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 02:04 am: Edit

---

Quote:

The Tholian thing was added in to create a threat. By this time the Alpha quadrant has already been invaded by the Tholians, ISC, Andros, Selts and Xorks. The Xorks, in the proposed history, basically crushed the northern races. To prevent the Romulans and Klingons from simply splitting up the crippled Alpha sector after the Xorks leave we needed a new enemy. The Tholians because of their geography and defensive posture fit that threat role nicely, though I suppose we could have some other conquest race invade from the south if you would prefer. Historically that timeframe is so far out as to be irrelevant to the actual discussions taking place.

---

---

Quote:

Andro War: XP
Trade War: XP, XR
Xork War: CX, XR, XR2, X2

---

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 02:06 am: Edit

Oops:-

Trade War: XP, X1R, X1, X2 ( DDs and smaller ).

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 11:11 am: Edit

There would be three modules for the trade wars. The exsisting Module-X plus X1R and XP. That should be plenty.
Then can come X2. Each race would get One XCC, One XCL, one XDD, and three XFFs (variant types about the size of DDs).
The Xork Module might or might not have one or two more X2 ships for each race. I suppose if the situation call for it there could be a X2R.

Mostly, I don't see a need for a X2P. X1 ships with partial X2 tech. I'm all for XP (GW ships with partial X1 tech.) XP has been on the wish list of many for a long time. We all have favorite ships from the GW but I haven't talked to anyone who has been wishing they could make the D5X more powerful with a couple somethings.

MJC: Regarding timeline. That it! Though I would think the mentalities of the Empires Admirals would produce a full cruiser first. Cruisers have always been the show piece of new technologies. Otherwise I think your application of modules to wars is right on. Oh, well except X2R would come after X2 as that would be more X2.

X1 ships will easilly be able to function in the X2 era. Much easier than GW in the X1. XP makes GW fit in the new pardigm on the statigic and tactical level from the Empire PoV (though with or with out the refits GW must be able to compete with X1 if the BPV is equal). Without the Organians pulling the fleets away from the Empires the XP makes total sense. The Empires are exhausted and every ship could have exteended value. Note, no race will be at full strength. So there wont be all that many ships to convert. XP is a logical cost saving mesure and when one race decides to do it (could start with the Feds) the others have no choice but to.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 11:57 am: Edit

I any case if SVC wants more modules than that I'll buy them. I always do. I have little interest in Module Y but I have it. I mostly got it for the Time Line and history.

I'll be happy just to see X1R and X2. Could be that X1R would just have conversion rules for XP and no XP SSDs.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 01:10 pm: Edit

Would people perfer that we change the names of the above timeline to make things clearer?

Specifically, should X1R/XR become X2 and X2 become X2R?