Archive through January 17, 2003
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Archive through January 17, 2003
No.
X2 is the next revolution after. X1R was coined as a reference to fleetwise X-tech.
X2-proper would be the first new X2-ships and X2R fleetwide production X2.
John T.
Right! Exactly.
Quote:Mostly, I don't see a need for a X2P. X1 ships with partial X2 tech. I'm all for XP (GW ships with partial X1 tech.) XP has been on the wish list of many for a long time. We all have favorite ships from the GW but I haven't talked to anyone who has been wishing they could make the D5X more powerful with a couple somethings.
Now an X2P actually is forseeable, but it depends on several things.
1) If the strategic speed of X2 is 8 then there'll be no real need to X2P up; the X1 ships, but if it's something more like 10, then there is a real strategic need to grab those X1s and make 'em move like X2 ships.
2) If tactical speeds above Speed 33 become availible to X2 ships ( Say by paying 5 times the usual warp per hex for warp based speeds over 30 ) AND moving at those speeds has considerable tactical advantage, then there is the need to grant a partial X2 conversion to X1s, something I've said should begin arounf Y215.
3) If the sweetspot extention of X2 phasers ( which will only need to come to pass to any great extent if we have 33+ ships ) allows X2 ships to simply cream X1 shields at range ( despite the fact that by BPV the X1s will be more numerous ) whilkst an upgrade to X2 phasers would allow X1 ships to equit themselves vell by dishing up proportionate damage( by having the enemy in range when the enemy gets you in range ) then the admiralty will have an impotus to mount X2 Phasers on X1 ships.
4) If X2 drones are able to move at speed 33+ ( especially if X1 ships get to move at speed 33 ( see above ) then there will be an impotus to get the speed 32 drones replaced with something that actually can threaten enemy X1FS and X2 ships.
*X1FS is X1FullSpeed which is something I proposed would be in X2; almost the day 33+ speeds were propossed for X2.
Quote:Though I would think the mentalities of the Empires Admirals would produce a full cruiser first. Cruisers have always been the show piece of new technologies
I would think a DDXX testbed followed by a CCXX showpeice but I think the Treaty limiting production ( and producing the very limited TRADE WARS...Who wants General War to be the only kind!?! ) would come along before the laying down of the keel of the second CCXX for most advanced race and thus each race was limited to 1 CCXX.
MJC, we have been talking about XP not including replacement engines so it wouldn't improve the strategic speed of the ships, just the combat power.
you would want X2P ships for the same reason you have the X1P ships, you increase the capibility of an existing design for less cost then building a new class.
anything that limits the races to fewer then about one heavy command ship per theater will have very little chance of working.
This means the
Lyrans will have 2
Hydrans/Kzinti/Romulans 1-2 (they want 2, but may only be able to afford 1 and they have a continuous border to patrol)
Klingons/Federation 2-3 (probably 3)
Gorn 1
Tholian 1
ISC ???
as the minimum numbers.
to this we would probably want to add 1-2 to this to allow for a new one to be in workups and an old one to be on the way out to come up with the treaty limits
remember that the washington naval treaty allowed the major nations something like 5 BBs each and the smaller ones 2-3.
this allows a large command ship to show up on any front, but seldom more then one becouse you wouldn't want to strip another border of it's one.
Actually, engine-relacement is a suspended hot debate (pardon the pun). A lot of people want Hotwarp/Fast warp on XP ships.
XP Standard strategic speed Hot Warp engines (not fast warp)
X1 Inefficient expensive after-burner engines to improve speed. Costs justified due to war.
XR New hulls and improved warp flow dynamics allows ships to be as fast as X1 but much more efficient. Costs justified due to peace.
X2 All that XR jazz plus inefficient, expensive after-burner engines. Costs justified due to war.
XRP could potentially put after-burner engines on XR ships to allow them greater strategic speed but they would have a very limited cruising range, limited self repair, no ability to self resupply, etc. These ships could be as fast as X2 but if running at full burn would only have a few months worth of fuel.
I think XR and X1 should have the same game effects, the engines for XR may be more efficiant (defiantly less troublesom so they don't need outstanding crews to maintain them), but the difference will be just in maintinance and construction costs.
we don't yet have any maintinance in the SFB universe (not in SFB or F&E, I actually expect it to show up first in GPD becouse players will need to know how much their ships are to maintain)
the construction savings will be reflected in the fact that you don't have to spend XPoints to pay for the ships, but can use EPoints instead, this doesn't directly make the ships much cheaper, but allows you to produce more of them
David,
makes sense.
Or a mix of EP and XP to pay for the upgrade, as a compromise.
EP and a touch of XP.
X tech costs XTPs, period. You can't get advanced tech with normal EPs, just doesn't work.
Yes, but we're not expending near the XP for a full-X conversion.
Also, as X becomes the standard tech, EPs and XPs will have to become interchangeable.
Going from EY to MY, the equivalent of XPs probably had to be expended to build the first MY ships as well, but it became standard tech and from there on, EPs were all that was needed.
the same shift has to happen to X-tech
Some of the XP refit might not actually be X-Tech. THe shield improvements don't have to be. The Warp refit (if used) could be a modified version ofthe old "Fast Warp" thus not X-Tech.
So I'd say that it could be a 50/50 cost(EP/XP). And THATS the reason the Empires went for it full barral.
go ahead and pay XP for the upgrade, but the base ship is EP
this gets close to the 50-50 mix (probably 2-1 EP-XP depending on how many upgrades they get)
What is XR?
XR1: The Trade Wars
XR1: After X1
XR1: After the Andros
XR1: Before the Xorks
XR1: Y205-214 (proposed)
XR1: Smaller balanced ships
XR1: Cheaper to operate, maintain, repair and crew
XR2: After the Xorks
XR2: Same tech as XR1
XR2: Larger war ships
XR2: Y215-225 (proposed)
X2: Xorks pushed back out of Alpha space
X2: Strategically faster war ships matching Xork tech level
X2: Self-sufficient with extended range
X2: Y226-234 (proposed)
If this progression is adopted then the changes for X2 are significant from a strategic point of view and may contain some of the extended range functionality found in Supplement #2.
So where does XR fit in? Our options are:
1) A fleet wide standardization of X1 tech built on new more efficient to operate hulls
2) An intermediate technology using some new systems and some X1 systems
3) Completely new X2 tech standard without the strategic advantages
Option 1, Standard X1 tech pushed on new hulls doesn't add much to the game IMHO.
Option 3, Completely new X2 tech will be difficult to balance against X1/XP/X0 ships.
Option 2, Seems to offer the smoothest technology transition and should reduce generational RPS.
XR can be an intermediate tech level between X1 and X2 using some of each. Ships with a YIS date of Y205 (XR1) would use 75% X1 tech, ships with a YIS date of 215 (XR2) would use 75% X2 tech. XR1 would have upgrades to get to XR2. Neither XR1 nor XR2 could be upgraded to include the strategic advantages of X2.
From a module perspective we have X1, XP, XR1, XR2, CX (Xorks), X2. X1 is already published so that's five new modules to cover Y190-250.
Specifically to define XR, which of the three options do others feel is best?
XR1 should be the time after the general war, the ISC, and the andros when X technology becomes more common and at the end of the XR1 time period there should be no X0 ships left in the fleets and very few if any XP ships left in the fleet. X1 becomes the norm
XR2 should be the same thing after X2 initially comes out. first X2 ships are rare and valuble, then X2P adds upgrades to X1 ships, then XR2 replaces all the X1 and X2P ships with X2 ships.
the intermediate stpe between X1 and X2 should be the X2P ships just like the intermediate step between X0 and X1 is the XP ships
frankly I think the most interesting periods to play are going to be the XP and X2P periods, the X1 and XR ships are so optimized and cookiecutter that they do loose something (I haven't played them with the proposed X changes yet so hopefully they will fix things a LOT), XP has the potential to increase capabilities without making all the ships able to do everything they want to do at the same time, X2 will add a lot of capabilities, but I expect them to have some of the same type of problems that the origional X1 ships had so X2R will also be very interesting.
X1R is loosely defined as the time when X-tech is standard fleet technology.
We have 2 or 3 periods for X1, of which X1R is one.
X-tech appears at the end of the GW era as leading-bleeding-edge technology. CX's for the flagships of fleets When fighting the Andros, while debates at home rage on whether X-ships are better as elements of mixes X/non-X fleets or if the empires should form all-X squadrons and eventually, fleets. All-X fleets eventually win.
XP should take place after the Anros have been defeated. The groundwork for the XP refit would be laid during the Andro War, but supplies and logistics prevent XP refitted ships from participating. XP and most true-X ships stay home to watch for Andro counterstrikes.
After the Andro War is over, the genie is out of the bottle. The powers all settle back into their prewar habit of eyeing each over suspiciously over the border. But everyone's economy is way too shot to afford many incidents. XP conversions continue as a way of stretching each empire's X-point budget. Assuming that star Fleet Overlord = Trade Wars, Excess GW-tech hulls are sold to ambitious companies wanting to develop the Andro's old stomping grounds. (Despite security procedures, a few private ships receive the XP refit and a Federation company manages to commision ond field
one full-blown CX, the USS Nadisco 
)
X1R starts when the empire's economies start getting money from the GMC settlements and all X-fleets become viable. Ship designs begin to evolve as empires start to rouse from economic torpor. the rate of change is nothing like the frenetic pace of the General War, but eventually a new generation of X-ships emerges which would be the equivalent of BCs, DNs, etc.
Then, it's Xorktime and all hades busts loose.
and when the Xorks arrive the cycle of technology begins again, just replace non-X with X1 and X with X2 in the above technology line
If the small X1 varients are getting built, why wouldn't some of the CX ships also be varients at the same time?
Is this the latest proposed timeline?
X1 Module
Y181-Y195
First use of X tech
Limited production, and baseline ships only.
Outstanding crews are needed.
GW ships are common, X1 ships are limited.
X1R - Varients for X1 ships
Y195-Y202
Outstanding crew restriction is lifted.
All new construction is X1 tech.
XP - Partial X - X-tech Refits of GW ships
Y195-Y202
Refits for GW ships using X1 tech.
X2 - Second Generation Advanced Technology
Y205-Y225
Trade Wars
Mix of various tech levels in use.
X0 ships are being sold to whoever has money.
All DD and FF new construction is X2 tech.
DDX and FFX ships in general use.
X2 CA and CL are unique or limited, as they are seen as not worth the cost.
X1 CA is the general purpose flagship.
X2R - Varients for X2 ships
Y225 +
Xork Invasion
Most/all X0/XP ships are destroyed in the first few years.
A large portion of X1 ships are also lost.
All new construction is X2 tech
X2 CA,CL,DD,FF Varients
Xork ships with X2 technology comprise the invading force.
Xorks conquer large parts of the galaxy, the tide doesn't turn until X2 production is able to provide sufficient numbers of ships to mount effective battle fleets.
Close. There have been timeline snippets posted but the last full timeline, similar to what you posted, was put up 1/13/03 1:56pm.
What you are calling X1R, variants for X1 ships like the GSCX, is usually called X1B.
“All new construction is X1 tech.”
No decision to make ‘all new construction X1 tech’ has been made, but it has been proposed.
“If the small X1 varients are getting built, why wouldn't some of the CX ships also be varients at the same time?”
It runs into the problem of ‘do you really want to spend that much on a minesweeper/commando/fast resupply ship?’ Forcing a historical player to build X-tech when he doesn’t want to is something I’d rather avoid.
“X1R is loosely defined as the time when X-tech is standard fleet technology.”
X1R, shortened to XR in the 1/13 timeline, begins in Y205. X2 is a better name so whatever its called is a question of semantics. Doesn’t matter as long as we all know what year is being discussed. Y205 will see general availability for X tech. There is the all-new hulls concept, which comes from the (X0.0) flavor text. Presumably X0/X1/X1B/XP ships could not be converted to Y205+ ships because of these basic hull advancements.
“Assuming that star Fleet Overlord = Trade Wars, Excess GW-tech hulls are sold to ambitious companies wanting to develop the Andro's old stomping grounds.”
“X0 ships are being sold to whoever has money.”
I don’t subscribe to that theory. The LMC is populated, and not just by Andros. Exploiting it isn’t economical.
Where your timeline and mine differ is how we beat back the Xorks. I have the Xorks invading with superior technology. We fight defensively but continue to loose ground until we can match their tech by what your timeline would refer to as X3.
Overall, excepting the semantics, the basics are converging.
Quote:X1R, shortened to XR in the 1/13 timeline, begins in Y205. X2 is a better name so whatever its called is a question of semantics. Doesn’t matter as long as we all know what year is being discussed.
Unfortunately, X2 is already semantically reserved for Second Generation Advanced Ships. Whether it's Y205 or Y225 is up for debate, but X2 is not the module for listing X1 ships in general service.
Let me try this:
Module X1 - First Generation Advanced Ships
Y181-Y195 Late GW, ISC, Andromedan Wars
Outstanding crew required.
Basic X1 hulls
Module X1R - Varients for X1 ships
Y195-Y205 Late Andromedan War
X1 ships built after Y195 do not need outstanding crews. Some/most/all new construction is X1 tech.
Historically, the tide is turning against the Andy invasion.
SSDs to be included:
- X1 drone bombardment
- X1 CCH
- X1 Heavy Scout
- X1 Minesweeper
- Brothers of the Goliath
Module XP - Partial X refits to GW ships
Y195-Y205 Late Andromedan War
Rules/SSDs for refitting X1-tech to X0 hulls.
- DN (ok, that's a whole new topic)
- CA (varients)
- CL {Fed Texas class?)
- DD (varients)
- FF (varients)
- BCH (conjectural?)
But not BCH, CW, DW, HDW
Module X2 - Second Generation X Ships
Y205-Y225 The Trade Wars
Rules for X2 technology
Transition period between X1 and X2.
Most races brought ship construction down to near peacetime levels.
X2 CL and X2 CA are limited/unique production until Y225.
Historically, a time of uneasy peace, bankrupt Galactic Powers, and a power vacuum along the borders waiting to be filled in by Pirate cartels.
- Base Hull CA,CL,DD,FF
- Varients for FF
- New X1 and/or X2 ships for Pirates
Module X2R - Varients for X2 ships
Y225+ Xork invasion
The fact that the galactics did not spend the last 20 years building X2 CAs in large numbers proves costly.
- X2 CA varients (maybe the base hull can go here as well)
- CL varients
- DD varients
- Base hull Xork ships?
Tos, where we disagree is whether to start X1R in Y195 or Y205.
If the first of the X2 tech ships comes out in Y205 (Trade Wars), then Y195 is where I see X1R fitting into place.
While I agree that the LMC is a populated area, The Trade Wars could be the Age of the Pirate. Most of the galactic races are exhausted and will sell 40 year old X0 hulls to anyone.
There is a cautious peace among the galactic powers
Edited after Loren's post
Jeff. Well done, I like it but I do take exception to the "No XP refit to BCH hulls. BCH hulls in general are new hull designs and are not compact War Cruiser design style either. I think there is room for the upgrade. And tell me, who doesn't want to see their favorite BCH finally get to be all it can be? I would love to see a C7 or a BCG get X-Batts etc. and have a go at each other or against a X-Orion or a Andromedan.
in the no CW/DW/etc area I think there is room for discussion and racial flavor (i.e. not all of the CWs are real 'war' classes, some fit that niche, but were full capibility designs to start with)
as for HDW/BCH/NCA, as I have said before these shouldn't get XP refits, but there should be X1 versions of them
Well, if X1R has the BCHX then I'll let go of the BCHXP but I'd rather see the latter.