| By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 01:40 am: Edit |
The timeline is flexible enough so that whether or not a particular class of ship gets the XP refit isn't going to affect much.
I think that would be more a question of how many SSDs can fit into a module, since just about every class will have some fans wanting the XP refit for it.
| By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 01:42 am: Edit |
Jeff, gee, thanks!
| By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 01:46 am: Edit |
Perhaps some of the "stressed to the breaking point" hulls can get the XP refit, but only with a shock roll.
The bigger question is if X1R and XP's Year In Service belong in the Late Andromedan War or in the Trade Wars?
| By David Lang (Dlang) on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 01:49 am: Edit |
for the ships that max out a given hull in the GW era it just makes more sense to me that they could be built from the keel up as X-ships and handle it, but if you try to retrofit additional capability onto the existing GW hulls you will run into problems.
keep in mind that most of the improvements that the XP refits will provide are significantly more useful then the differences between the maxed out ships and the ones over the line that suffer from shock
| By David Lang (Dlang) on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 01:56 am: Edit |
I don't think that any of the X or XP shiips should be subject to shock, it's just to expensive (in maintinance costs) for to little gain.
I can see each race experimenting with it during the GW, but they learned how expensive the extra capability was to use, and therefor how infrequently it gets used and wouldn't pay for what they won't use.
besides the main purpose of the XP ships is to get additional capability for less cost then a full X ship. ships that shock are VERY expensive to maintain.
in F&E shock ships are considered almost worthless, the extra combat capability you get is impressive when you look at a single hull, but if you look at a full fleet it's pretty minor. late war fleets frequently field >140 compot and a shock ship will add 2-3 to that number, and will cripple itself 1/3 of the time, costing quite a bit to repair, end result is that repairing the shock damage costs more then the enemy has to pay to repair the ships damaged from the extra capibility.
| By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 01:57 am: Edit |
Fast arming would most likely cause shock damage. The 6 photon BCJ had a shock rating.
The only improvement X1 gives the phasers is rapid-pulse and double capacitors. If a hull can handle a ph-1, it can handle a 2x ph-3.
Batteries? Don't know. If it holds more than 2 points of power it starts overheating???
| By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 02:10 am: Edit |
The BCJ only sufferred shock if it tried to fire 5 or 6 photons in a round. That should be our guide to shock in XP.
The thing about hulls "stressed to their limit" is that everything is as tightly packed as it is going to pack. There's no "play" left with which to install X-tech. You would need to rip out some systems, probably rearrange some decks and bulkheads to install even a little X-tech and that's a major refit, not a minor one, and the result would be a BCXP that's better ut not massively better than a CBXP at a time and materials cost for renoviating 2 or 3 CB's.
From my perspective, then, shock for a BCXP doesn't enter into the equation because the hull isn't "stressed" in a shock producing sense.
| By David Lang (Dlang) on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 02:14 am: Edit |
2xPh-3 vs 1xP-1 from the same mount is additional stress
peak damage possible from 2x3 is 8 vs 1x1 at 9, but the 2x3 shots each take less then half the time of the 1x1 shot since the mount needs time to be retargeted between shots.
I would say something like 1 shock point each time a P-1 is fired in rapid mode, 1 point of shock each turn for each point of power above 1 per battery
the thing is that if such a ship uses the advanced abilities it will probably shock itself during anything longer then a duel, and if it doesn't why pay the rare XP to build it instead of something that can use it's full abilities all the time?
| By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 02:15 pm: Edit |
My browser shows a lost archive. http://www.starfleetgames.com/discus/messages/23/2854.html has disappeared from the archive list at the top of this thread. I'll mention it to Joe but is anyone else seeing what I am seeing?
| By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 04:16 pm: Edit |
Working toward consensus with Jeff on the timeline. I'll mix and match nomenclature where I think it makes sense.
X0 Y168-180
X1 Y181-204
o X1 tech production increases around Y194 but still represents a minority of production.
X1B Y186-204
o X1 variants like the Fed GSCX.
o I don't see X1 specialty ships as necessary as XP ships will fill the same roles cheaper and without the maintenance headaches of full X-tech.
XP Y194-204
o Like X1 some ships are converted to XP and others are built with XP.
o Upgrades do not include additional warp. The warp upgrade is only available with the full X1 package.
o Eligible classes and tech TBD with an emphasis on being in sync with what F&E says was produced.
X1R/XR Y195-204
o In Jeff's timeline this is when X-tech becomes standard tech. Production of X1/X1R ships nears 100%
o In Tos' timeline it refers to what Jeff is calling X2. I will adopt my nomenclature to match his.
o In Tos' timeline there is no period when production shifts to only X1 tech. New production is split 20% X1, 80% XP.
X2 Y205-224
o The Trade Wars. Not as portrayed in SFW.
o New lighter/faster/efficient hulls become general availability. X0/XP/X1 cannot be converted to X2.
o Economically bankrupt Alphas reduce production from war peak.
o As fast strategically as an X1 ship but with lower operating costs.
o Moderately improved tech over X1 including TBD.
o Races build 50% FF(X2), 40% DD(X2), 9% CL(X2), 1% CA(X2) as X0/XP replacements.
o CC(X1) continue to operate as fleet flag ships but tend to stay docked until needed due to their higher operating costs. Similar to a pre-war DN.
X2R Y225-234
o The Xorks invade with X3 tech and blow through the northern regions.
o The Alphas counter by building larger X2 war classes and eventually stop the Xork advance in northern Klingon/Rom territory.
X3 Y235-250
o The Alphas develop tech that finally matches the Xorks. Very conjectural as we have no idea what the Xorks actually look like.
o Similar weapons tech to X2R. X3 enhancements are strategic in nature and require new hulls.
o Faster strategic speed and longer range than X2/X1. Equal to the Xorks.
o Ability to operate independently with enhanced repair and self resupply capabilities.
o X2/X2R ships cannot be upgraded with the enhanced strategic capabilities.
Gaps:
o We should decide if X1 tech ever became mass produced as standard tech or if that need was met by XP ships.
o We should decide if a module full of X1 variants is useful or if XP ships meet that need.
o We should decide a basic premise for the Xork invasion and Xork push back. It may all get nixed by SVC but our coming to a consensus improves the odds.
Once we can agree on a basic framework it should be easier to fill in the TBDs.
| By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 04:34 pm: Edit |
Hmm, I would say that at some point, X1 will be all that is built for a while.
EY and MY ships slowly fade, leaving GW ships eventually. The standard CA may always be around, as it can make all the varients.
We are talking X3 now?!?!
I do not think we should take it upon ourselves to surmise what the Xorkelians did, will do, or are doing. That is SVCs perview, and we should leave it to him unless he asks us for thoughts on it.
| By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 04:42 pm: Edit |
Your X3 reaction was expected but had the name been Xork War 1,2,3 you wouldn't have thought anything of it. What's in a name anyway?
| By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 05:26 pm: Edit |
Perhaps, I misunerstand.
What is the difference between X2 and X3 tech? I don't think we have X3 even on the radar yet.
| By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 06:27 pm: Edit |
Let me repost Tos' timeline, and I'll add in my comments:
Quote:X0 Y168-180
X1 Y181-204
o X1 tech production increases around Y194 but still represents a minority of production.
XP Y194-204
o Like X1 some ships are converted to XP and others are built with XP.
o Upgrades do not include additional warp. The warp upgrade is only available with the full X1 package.
o Eligible classes and tech TBD with an emphasis on being in sync with what F&E says was produced.
Quote:X1B Y186-204
o X1 variants like the Fed GSCX.
o I don't see X1 specialty ships as necessary as XP ships will fill the same roles cheaper and without the maintenance headaches of full X-tech.
Quote:X1R/XR Y195-204
o In Jeff's timeline this is when X-tech becomes standard tech. Production of X1/X1R ships nears 100%
o In Tos' timeline it refers to what Jeff is calling X2. I will adopt my nomenclature to match his.
o In Tos' timeline there is no period when production shifts to only X1 tech. New production is split 20% X1, 80% XP.
Quote:X2 Y205-224
o The Trade Wars. Not as portrayed in SFW.
o New lighter/faster/efficient hulls become general availability. X0/XP/X1 cannot be converted to X2.
o Economically bankrupt Alphas reduce production from war peak.
o As fast strategically as an X1 ship but with lower operating costs.
o Moderately improved tech over X1 including TBD.
o Races build 50% FF(X2), 40% DD(X2), 9% CL(X2), 1% CA(X2) as X0/XP replacements.
o CC(X1) continue to operate as fleet flag ships but tend to stay docked until needed due to their higher operating costs. Similar to a pre-war DN.
Quote:X2R Y225-234
o The Xorks invade with X3 tech and blow through the northern regions.
o The Alphas counter by building larger X2 war classes and eventually stop the Xork advance in northern Klingon/Rom territory.
Quote:X3 Y235-250
o The Alphas develop tech that finally matches the Xorks. Very conjectural as we have no idea what the Xorks actually look like.
o Similar weapons tech to X2R. X3 enhancements are strategic in nature and require new hulls.
o Faster strategic speed and longer range than X2/X1. Equal to the Xorks.
o Ability to operate independently with enhanced repair and self resupply capabilities.
o X2/X2R ships cannot be upgraded with the enhanced strategic capabilities.
| By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 01:24 am: Edit |
No X3 please. The rules say that belongs to "The Next Generation".
| By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 02:18 am: Edit |
Loren: Where does it state that X3 is Next Gen?
"Unfortunately, X2 is already semantically reserved for Second Generation Advanced Ships."
(X0.0) states otherwise. Where does it state X2=Second Generation? If your comments are strictly internal to this conversation then I accept your definition.
X1 is defined. The names of every other Y180+ product are not defined. As we have no control over what a module is actually published as. All we can do is settle on a tech short hand for purposes of our internal discussion.
| By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 03:33 am: Edit |
”The reason I used X1R [instead of X1B] for this was because the R module typically includes new ships for an already established race/time period.”
Regardless of the name I still don’t see a need to create X1 minesweepers when I can make an XP minesweeper just as effective and at significantly lower cost.
”There is a lot of overlap between what Tos calls X1B and X1R, so much so that they should be included in the same module.”
There is no overlap between my X1B and X1R. For you to say there is means I haven’t adequately explained myself. My nomenclature has X1B = X1 Variants. X1R or XR is Y205+ ships built on entirely new hull designs. Completely different SSDs. Slightly different tech.
“X1R (Tos' name) appears to be only a statement that ‘X1 tech no longer needs outstanding crews after Y---, therefore X1 production becomes more standardized.’”
I can’t find where I made such a statement, nor do I support it. I did say “Y194-204: (XP) X-Tech begins to trickle down as certain technology stabilizes and becomes more affordable to maintain.” But that is referring to XP tech.
The point is you have been calling Y205+ X2 and I was calling it X1R or XR (so as to avoid calling anything in my timeline X3). In an effort to simplify discussion by adopting your nomenclature I may have inadvertently confused the issue further.
”How much production is X1 and how much is XP is open for debate. I say that if X1 is generally available, there would be no need for new-construction XP hulls.”
That would be fine, but potentially boring. It also may conflict with the info found in (R0.200) which states “Conventional non-X-ships, including new construction, served until Y205 and beyond, forming the bulk of most fleets”. This isn’t 100% clear on what late production looked like but I have interpreted it to mean that non-X ships were in bulk production until Y204 and continued to serve after Y205.
”I would argue that the X2 ships of this period have superior firepower than the X1 ships, not just strategic speed.”
I do not disagree with your premise. I see a Y205 DD(X2) design having superior firepower and superior technology compared with a DD(X1). But only marginally. I would like a DD(X2) ship to mount small quantities (2-4) of the P5 and an early SIF. The DD(X2) would be better at saber dancing but the X1 ships equal at point blank range.
Our difference is I claim X1 maxed out at 20% of production with 80% XP. After Y205 X2 new production can approach 100%.
X2=X1 strategic speed. X2>XP strategic speed.
X2=Y205=Standardized X-Tech with a few new bells and whistles.
X2=A major economic step forward=minor tactical step forward.
An X1 ship (Ferrari) and an X2 ship (Corvette) are comparable tactically but the X2 ship does slightly more for much less.
”Where we disagree is the tech level of the Xorks.”
True. We can adopt one or the other approach but neither is likely to stand up to review by SPP/SVC.
In my timeline X2 isn’t much tactically better than X1, just more economical with slightly increased weapons ranges. X1 ships are expensive maxed out warships. My X2 ships are well-rounded and tuned for the Trade Wars when fights to the death are considered passé.
I enjoy the concept of the Alphas fighting a grim and desperate war against a foe with superior technology. I think it adds new challenges to the game.
My concept of the Xorks is strategically similar to the Andros. Faster than an Alpha ship but without the Achilles heel of the rapid transport network. Xorks only choose to fight when they know they have the advantage and the best the Alphas can hope for is to score some attrition damage before getting killed. I would add a rule that Alpha ships cannot disengage from Xork ships without the Xork players permission.
Eventually the Alpha forces build enough X2R ships to stop the Xork advance, but not before the Xorks exterminate every BATS in the northern half of the map. Xorks use some very effective weapon for engaging bases. Without forward basing the races are isolated from each other and cannot mount an effective counter attack without being out of supply.
Though I should have learned by now I will call Xorks X3 tech.
X3 tech has a higher strategic speed than X1/X2 and using this speed can force engagements on its terms.
X3 tech has significantly more repair capability between scenarios.
X3 tech is never considered out of supply.
X3 tech can replace/replicate expendables such as drones, PPTs, PL-D and even shuttle craft.
X3 tech is tactically similar to X2R tech.
X3 ships can finally pin Xork ships and force the battle on Alpha’s terms.
The Alphas develop X3 tech in Y235 after 10 years of defeats. X3 tech isn’t significantly more tactically threatening than X2R. Both X2R and X3 represent very dangerous tactical warships but X3 has a significant edge strategically. X2R ships lead the counter assault but don’t have the strategic range to carry the war back to the Xorks. The X3 ships can and do.
“Perhaps, I misunderstand. What is the difference between X2 and X3 tech?”
To summarize:
X2 = Y205 general purpose small ships suitable for the trade wars. They routinely mix with XP/X1. While not significantly more powerful they are much more efficient and cheaper to operate.
X2R = Y225 warships larger than the X2 ships and designed to put up the best defensive fight they can manage against the Xorks. These ships eventually stop the Xork advance by heavily defending key bases.
X3 = Y235 warships of similar size to X2R tactically but able to strategically pin Xork vessels and fight the war on Alpha’s terms for the first time.
The entire timeline is based upon economics, known conflicts and highlights the advantages of superior strategic speed.
| By David Lang (Dlang) on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 07:23 am: Edit |
X2 has pretty significant connotations, I really hate the idea of degrading it down to 'minor improvments in strategic movement, not seen in SFB, but only in F&E'
| By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 09:53 am: Edit |
Why can I never seem to get my points across? Is it the long posts?
X2 has the same strategic speed as X1. X3 has the big boost in speed.
X2 is a significant evolutionary improvement over X1. It can't be a revolutionary improvement or it won't play nice with X1 and XP during the trade war years.
It could gain longer range overloaded weapons
It could gain a SIF
It could gain the P5
It could gain the GX2 Rack
We could see cool new racial tech like the EAG
It gains all of X1 tech
It replaces 100% of production
It has a whole host of hidden economic advantages
It can be expanded beyond the limits of X1 into BCH(X2) and DN(X2)
How much more do you want?
| By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 11:52 am: Edit |
Tos said:
Quote:(X0.0) states otherwise. Where does it state X2=Second Generation? If your comments are strictly internal to this conversation then I accept your definition.
Quote:Assume that Module X2 is Second Generation X-Technology, new hulls and new gizmos. Could be improvements of the existing (probably still have phasers) but could be whole new things.
Module X1R might be considered a reinforcements package for the existing X1 and hence would just be more of what was in X1 and, I presume, not part of your conversation.
| By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 12:46 pm: Edit |
One more try at a timeline. We may be closer to a consensus than people may think.
Y181 - X1
The first X1 ship is built.
Y186 - X1 varients
The first varient of an X1 ship is bult.
Y194 - XP
The first Partial-X refit is given to an X0 ship.
Y195 -
New-construction X1-tech ships no longer need outstanding crews.
I had argued that the Galactics would shift all production to X1-tech, since an X1 ship is tactically superior to an XP ship.
Tos had argued that it would be 20% X1, 80% XP, since an XP ship can still get the job done cheaper.
I forgot about the economic cost and that X0 ships are still serving in Y205.
Y195 is still the Andromedan War, and the Galactics need to get as many ships built as possible.
Y202
Operation Unity. No Second Generation ships have been invented yet.
Y205 - The Trade Wars
A new generation of technology is invented.
Quote:X2=X1 strategic speed. X2>XP strategic speed.
X2=Y205=Standardized X-Tech with a few new bells and whistles.
X2=A major economic step forward=minor tactical step forward.
| By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 12:55 pm: Edit |
Captains Module X2 has been clearly and repeatably defined as Second Generation X Ships. (In Captains BS '99, AM '99 and other places.
The line I read was something like this: "It is assumed that there was a third generation of X-Ships but that would be the "Next Generation".
Now that you ask, Lord help me, I can't find it. I will, and I'll let you know. Sorry.
Regarding X-BCH hulls. Well, in Captains Module X1 page 15, design notes: It clearly states there is no X-BCH in a way that makes me believe that a BCH-XP would not be acceptable either (to ADB). It implies that X-Tech on BCH hulls was the stuff of X2. Which supports another arguement I've been making which is that as the CCX is based on the CC, let the XCC(X2) be based on the BCH. As that seems to be an established parameter set by these design note it goes on in a later paragraph that the future is open. My point is that it is acceptable to have X2 be based on the BCH.
I'll let go of the BCH-XP concept. But I'd go with the War Cruisers getting it(the XP refit) without more warp power but added stratigic speed.
| By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 01:21 pm: Edit |
Why shouldn't you base the XCC on the BCH? What's to say that using 2X tech on a BCH is going to stress the hull the same way that 0X tech will? Take a BCH, remove the 0X systems and put on 2X ones, and there's nothing to say it's going to stress the hull. Perhaps 2X weapons are smaller and more effective; who knows? It's as viable approach as any at this point.
| By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 01:55 pm: Edit |
I really don't think we should mess with X3.
Make X1 slowly gains advances and refits over the years, boosting their shields and maybe weapons, just like with GW ships.
When the Xorks come, then the X2 ships come out to deal with them.
That makes it so much easier.
| By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 02:06 pm: Edit |
Agreed.
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