So, in that case we have.

GW (X0)
X1 (X1,XP,XR)
X2

See? Much, much more simple.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 02:10 pm: Edit

Actually. I could see the X refits to old GW ships not happening until after the Andro war.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 09:59 pm: Edit

Or biginning during Operation Unity. That is several years where there is little history other that Op. U (I think...)

Module X1 says the X-Tech on the BCH hull problems were solved and that the ships were X2.

Cfant: That's exactly what I see. I suppose far down the line when some of use start to use walkers there might be an X2R.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 10:04 pm: Edit

“I could see the X refits to old GW ships not happening until after the Andro war.”

Op Unity took several years to execute ending in Y202. After the Andros are defeated the governments lack the funds and need to upgrade their X0 tech. I think Y195-204 is just about right.

Loren, look in Sup2. It might have been in there but my copy of the rules is MIA. I don't doubt you but I do want to integrate all known (documentable and current) published comments so we can try to fit within the existing framework.

Thanks Jeff for reposting SVC's comment. Thanks too for providing the date and time. I’m leery of basing too much credence on off-hand comments as they seldom get the editorial review of published comments. Still it gives us something, right? Doesn’t it?

Lets see: “Assume that Module X2 is Second Generation X-Technology, new hulls and new gizmos. Could be improvements of the existing (probably still have phasers) but could be whole new things. Module X1R might be considered a reinforcements package for the existing X1 and hence would just be more of what was in X1 and, I presume, not part of your conversation.”

That’s fine, but it doesn’t give any hints as to when X2 is. Nor does it define what to call a CL(Y205) built on a new hull with technology improvements beyond X1. An argument could be made that since it is a new hull it is X2 tech. An argument could be made that since it uses technology similar to X1 it is XR. This represents the confusion. I’ll just start using YIS dates and not worry over symantics.


“Y195 - I had argued that the Galactics would shift all production to X1-tech, since an X1 ship is tactically superior to an XP ship.”

Well, R2.201 says the Feds built “one [CX] a year until Y193, after which production increased.” That doesn’t help either as increase could mean two a year (3.5% of all production) as I assumed or 100% of production as you assumed. It looks like we are just going to have to make some sort of call. I prefer my way because it allows more room for XP expansion (which could be a •••• fun module). Does anyone have the fleet production numbers from F&E ISC War?

“A new generation of technology should be superior in tactical and strategic ways. The jumps from EY->MY and GW->X1 should be our guide for a new step in tech level.”

That’s an opinion where I suspect we differ. I don’t like that answer for Y205 ships as all races are nearly bankrupt and not about to invest in that kind of military buildup. I will accept that mid-Xork war we create ships that are 50% tactically better than a CC(X1), just not during the Trade Wars (TW).
“Pirates take the war surplus and go commerce-raiding.”
Government won’t be selling ships to pirates, they rely on that commerce that’s about to be raided. Sell to National Guard units? sure. Privateers instructed to raid enemy territory with plausible deniability? Sounds good. Sell warships directly to criminals? I don’t see it. We could build a whole TW module around the government funded privateers concept though. I like.

“What about this idea: During the trade wars, new construction is 40% X2, 20% X1, 40% XP?”

Fine by me but for two things:
1) For that concept to work you would have to rename X2 to X1R or XR or X205 or TW or anything but X2.
2) It really highlights how important it is that Y205 not dominate earlier tech.

“We may be closer to a consensus than people may think.”
If I didn’t comment I basically agreed. That’s pretty close all things considered. Our main gap appears to be how advanced tech becomes in Y205. I think you have proposed a nearly 50% improvement on a per class level but I hear notes of wavering too. I have advocated slight to moderate improvements befitting bankrupt governments entering a time of peace. Close enough to see light at the end of the tunnel.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 10:13 pm: Edit

"Module X1 says the X-Tech on the BCH hull problems were solved and that the ships were X2."

Where? I think you are referring to the Design Notes at the end of X1 page 15. That doesn't say they built X tech on BCH class ships.

It says "Eventually, of course, a cruiser hull able to withstand these pressures was designed; these ships were the Second Generation of X-ships, but they did not enter service until after the Andros had been defeated."

Consider also:
"(X0.0) After Y205, many ships were built from new designs"

From this we can surmise that a ship with fire power equivilent to a BCH(X1) was built from a new hull, not a refit of the existing BCH hull. Which is significantly different then saying they put X1 tech on a BCH.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 10:52 pm: Edit

Oh, I agree. When I read that carefully I realized that my repeated statememnts that the BCH could recieve the XP refit had an established arguement against it and I've decided to drop it. But it did lend support to my other idea of what kind of X-ships X2 should be. So I'm sticking with that.

Tos, I'll try to find it. It was in a "Future of X-ships" type thing. Where....darn it, I don't know. I'll find it!

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 11:01 pm: Edit

Correction:
“A new generation of technology should be superior in tactical and strategic ways. The jumps from EY->MY and GW->X1 should be our guide for a new step in tech level.”

Turns out to be a true statement in both timelines if you follow it through to its natural conclusion.

A maxed out post Xork invasion MC=1 vessel could be a 50% greater tactically than a maxed out X1 MC=1 ship. I think we agree after all. This kind of BCH(Y228) wouldn’t exist during the TW but would be built while the Xorks are romping through space.

Y181: In desperate war, maxed out warships
Y205: Not at war, well rounded, efficient, multi-role ship designs
Y225: In desperate war, maxed out warships

If you are in basic agreement then I think we have run out of gaps.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 11:13 pm: Edit

So in Y225 you might have some new designs that appear in the Xork module or X2R? X2R could be the aplication of X2 tech. for fighting the Xorks. The galixy is full of a mix of X1 and X2 when the Xorks arrive.

Tos, that's a fair line of reasoning you have there.

Of course there is still much to know about the Xorks and when exactly they will arrive.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 01:28 am: Edit

Long post: (as if my name showing up in this thread wasn't warning enough of a long post)

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Quote:

Y181: In desperate war, maxed out warships
Y205: Not at war, well rounded, efficient, multi-role ship designs
Y225: In desperate war, maxed out warships

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Quote:

I had argued that the Galactics would shift all production to X1-tech, since an X1 ship is tactically superior to an XP ship.”

Well, R2.201 says the Feds built “one [CX] a year until Y193, after which production increased.” That doesn’t help either as increase could mean two a year (3.5% of all production) as I assumed or 100% of production as you assumed. It looks like we are just going to have to make some sort of call. I prefer my way because it allows more room for XP expansion (which could be a •••• fun module).

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Quote:

I forgot about the economic cost and that X0 ships are still serving in Y205.
Y195 is still the Andromedan War, and the Galactics need to get as many ships built as possible.

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Quote:

“What about this idea: During the trade wars, new construction is 40% X2, 20% X1, 40% XP?”

Fine by me but for two things:
1) For that concept to work you would have to rename X2 to X1R or XR or X205 or TW or anything but X2.
2) It really highlights how important it is that Y205 not dominate earlier tech.

---

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 01:56 am: Edit

I am confused by the statement of a CCH upgraded to an X1 CX.

The CX is an upgrade of the CA/CC ships. It really does not matter though, as any crusier hull up to the CB can be turned into the CX. So, basing 2 types of BPV changes off those ships is not really not applicable.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 02:09 am: Edit

C. Fant:

While all CA/CC ships are able to be upgraded to CX, the CCH and the CX were two ships built under similar circumstances, wartime production with upgunned hulls If you compare the number of boxes, the CX comes closer to the CCH than to the CA.

Since there's a large point difference from a CA to a CCH, I figured it was worth making a distinction between the two.

Y225 ships should be tactically superior to Y205 ships. But I'm trying to make the point that the difference between Y205 and Y225 should be the same as from a CA to a CCH, not a CCH to a CX, and that both fall under the category of X2-tech.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 02:09 am: Edit

Also, I disagree with the idea of not building any crusiers during any time period.

The Feds build about 5 Crusiers a year during the war. I would see 2 CXs at least being built every year to get the Fleets back up to par and get the exploration going again.

I would think it would take 20-30 years to get all EPs generated turned into XTPs. Say 5% change from EP to XTP, in addition the the additional XTPs you already get. So, on a peacetime economy, not at major war, the Feds will bae able to turn out 10-15 X1 ships a year, on the low end. So, starting from about Y190, it would take till about Y210-Y220 to get to the point where everything being built is an X1 tech level ship.

For the Feds anyway, the CX will more than likely be the biggest ship built, maybe a few more SCSs and what-not. NCLs would still be constructed as they were not the same as other races CWs, I.e. not designed as a war hull. DWs and FFs would be replaced by DDXs and FFXs, with the DDX being the primary Fleet Scout and other variant coming from the NCLs and FFXs.


One thing to remember when doing Partial X-tech upgrades, is that DWs were short lifespan ships, as were most races CWs save for the Feds and Roms.

Currently, in F&E no CW or DW ship can be upgraded to X tech. Only normal ships such as FFs DDs CAs etc.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 02:11 am: Edit

I see the point now John, sorry. One thing to remember with the CCHs and BCHs is that they came about too late really. CXs came out so soon after these ships that only a few were built.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 02:23 am: Edit

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Quote:

I disagree with the idea of not building any crusiers during any time period.

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Quote:

One thing to remember when doing Partial X-tech upgrades, is that DWs were short lifespan ships, as were most races CWs save for the Feds and Roms.

Currently, in F&E no CW or DW ship can be upgraded to X tech. Only normal ships such as FFs DDs CAs etc.

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By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 05:22 am: Edit

Well, the Feds are still building the DD through the end of the war, but in small numbers.

But yeah, the FFX would take the place of FFs and DDXs would slowly take the place of NCLs.

But yeah, after the ISC and Andros are dealt with, I would see nothing by CX,DDX,FFX,NCLs still being built by the Feds, and the other races building As many X ships as they can, and little else.

So, X1 ships will get things like + and 175 refits, that is what you are saying yeah?

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 01:36 pm: Edit

The the galactis stoppedbuilding SC1 cruisers, it would be the first time in well over 100 years.

Somehow, I don't think so.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 01:44 pm: Edit

You mean SC3 or MC1?

SC1 cruisers might take a while to play.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 01:56 pm: Edit

I think we've got it. This is what I believe is the consensus timeline:

Y181 - Late General War
Module X1 - First Generation Advanced Ships
(Already published and modified in CL23)

The first X ship is built, with base hulls of other types following soon after

Between Y181 and Y184, most races get a:

• X1 CA
• X1 CL
• X1 DD
• X1 FF
• X1 SC

• X1 variant ships
• Partial-X1 (XP) refits to X0 ships

• X1 DN (if the SSD is labeled "conjectural", that's fine by me.)
• X1 Andy-busting heavy combat varients
• Other X1 varients that there's room to fit in the SSD book
• No new gizmos beyond Module X1/CL23

• XP CA (and varients)
• XP CL (and varients)
• XP DD (and varients)
• XP FF (and varients)
• X0 SSCS (Brothers of the Goliath)

• The first period of relative peace in half a century.
• Most races are exhausted, therefore ship building is back to peacetime (Y140) levels.
• All X0 ships and attrition units are in the process of being converted to XP, scrapped, sold, assigned to backwaters, converted to museums, or used as training ships.
• Everyone needs new "sources" of money and resources. But since nobody can afford to go on a war of conquest, many races start contracting Privateers.
• Adding to the chaos, Pirates begin increasing their raids.

• The Galactic Powers need to maintain border patrols, just as they did in Y140.
• The Galactic Powers have growing concerns about the increased Pirate/Privateer raids.
• The Pirates/Privateers are getting their hands on a lot of X0 material, so the Galactics need to counter this.
• An XP DD is outclassed by what some of the Raiders are using.
• The Galactics are economically exhausted, so they are also need a low-maintenance, long-range ship.

• X1 was designed to fill the role of Warship in a time when warships weren't expected to survive more than a few years.
• In Y205 when the Galactic Powers again need multi-role ships, similar to Y140, the X1-tech level proves lacking.

• X2 CA (limited or unique production, 300-325 BPV)
• X2 DD or CL (one or both for each race, but not based on a CW)
• X2 FF
• X2 FF varients

• The Xorks invade the galaxy.
• Nobody has yet seen Xork ship SSDs or gizmos, but they are nasty.
• Most X0/XP/X1 ships are destroyed in combat, due to whatever advantage the Xorks have over them.
• Most of the BATS and BS in the northern half of the galaxy are destroyed. This disrupts the logistics that had been developed to support X0/X1 style fleets.
• The X2 ships are able to contend with the Xorks on more equal terms, but there aren't enough heavy units or command units to do the job (yet)

• X2R DN (1 or 2 races may try this, or it may only be conjectural like most of R5)
• X2R BCH (a true beast of a warship)
• X2R CC (upgrade from the limited production CA, 350-375 BPV)
• X2R CW (upgrade from a CL)
• X2R DW {upgrade from a DD)
• X2R FW {upgrade from a FF)

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 02:11 pm: Edit

Jeff,

Boy was that a mangled post.

Yes, I meant MC1.

Some SC3, MC1 should would be around as flag ships and for the occasional heavy-lifting that as CL couldn't handle, like cleaning out a nest of Jindos or handling the occasional ancient Space Dragon or Arastoz.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 02:20 pm: Edit

I don't think it was that mangled, considering it covered 50 years and 5 modules (X1R,XP,X2,Cxork,X2R)

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 02:33 pm: Edit

My bad.

I meant MY last post, not your long one.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 02:41 pm: Edit

Jeff T.

Not bad. I find most of that acceptable. THere are a few assumptions of course. I say that because what the Xorks actually end up being my blow half of that apart but maybe not. You did a good job of mixing most all of the different views together with reason and fair logic. Certainly it can be nebulous at best currently but over all, good job.

"...nobody sees a need for X2 command ships. If a fleet battle occurs, the X1 CC will be un-mothballed to serve as flagship."

That shouldn't be necassary at all. The technology should be high enough that with little effort in loading the proper program these ships should serve well as Command ships. It's not like their command limit would be less that 10 anyway and fleets that big would be difficult to muster up so no need to dig up X1s for Command Rolls.

Remember, the races are not allies. The threat is still there even if they think every one is too exhausted to fight. Long before the U.S.S.R. fell we thought they were getting exhausted but we didn't let our guard down one tiny bit.

Also, here is another reason X2 gets developed as capable warships. After the Andromedan War every race was well aware of the designs and capabilities of each others best ships. When things settle down, everyone goes to the drawing board to prepair for the future.

That is not to say that the first X2 ships shouldn't be capable of the multi-roll mission. They should be, absolutely. But they should be capable fighting ships with peace time missions in a close second place. Peace offten must be enforced and this will be the attitude of all the Empires, no doubt.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 03:09 pm: Edit

Loren, I started to edit my previous timeline to include your comments, but when I finished, the post had become more than 60 minutes old.

One point to make: multi-role does not mean incapable of combat. And with all the other X2 gizmo threads on the board, the X2 DD would be a powerful ship.

What I was going to change was: (This is all Y205)

• X2 ships are multi-purpose. This includes border patrol, convoy escort, and reserve warship.
• The Y205 DD and CL are the workhorse ships
• The Y205 CA was limited production and intended to serve as flagship should war break out. Since the X2 CA would already have a 10 command rating, there was no need for a separate CC.
• During peacetime, the Y205 CA is the Grand Admiral's Toy. Big, impressive, and quite good at showing the flag.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 05:26 pm: Edit

One thing I see that I don't like.

You say in XP that CAs will get partial X refits.

I would think that of all ships, these would only get the full X1 refit. It is not that expensive, and of all of ships, the CA recieves the most benefit from the X tech.

So, I would think all CAs would become CXs, with the one exception being carriers that would only get an XP refit.

I also disagree with the idea of an XCL becoming the mainstay of the fleet. In time, the CX would be able to refill the role of the original CA. Meaning the big boy in each border sector, meaning 3-5 per fleet.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 05:34 pm: Edit

I mean, eventually, the Admiralty saw that X-tech worked best in squadrons, so there should be 1 CX for every 6 FFX/DDX that is in service.

Oh, and of the ships that exist when X-tech is available.

The Feds, the only 2 ships that can be upgraded to full X-tech is the CA and the FF. No other upgrade is possible. So, the NCLs would be the only ships getting XP refits.

The Klinks. The D7 and F5 can get the full X-tech upgrade, leaving......well no ships that can use partial x-tech. D5s will ware out. D5Xs and D5XDs are new build only.

The Roms, basically all their New Gen ships can get the X-tech upgrade, But, they have No economy to speak of.