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I would think that of all ships, these would only get the full X1 refit. It is not that expensive, and of all of ships, the CA recieves the most benefit from the X tech.

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I also disagree with the idea of an XCL becoming the mainstay of the fleet. In time, the CX would be able to refill the role of the original CA. Meaning the big boy in each border sector, meaning 3-5 per fleet.

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By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 07:16 pm: Edit

The whole point of XP is to make an empire's X-tech dollar go further.

Once the heat's off, I would expect cruisers to be refitted to XP and X-ships would be exclusively new construction. I always looked at X-conversion and an extensive and expensive refit (ragardless of its costs in F&E).

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 07:16 pm: Edit

Yeah, but when X2 comes out, the X1 ships will be around in great number, and the newer X2 ships will be off fighting the Xorks.

X1 ships will be the majority of the fleet at this time would they not?

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 07:28 pm: Edit

I would expect X1 ships to be all there is by the time the Xorks arrive. We're in X1R, where X is the atndard, expected tech.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 08:36 pm: Edit

X1 may shine in Y195-Y202 (the Andromedan War), but most of the X1 ships were designed specifically as warships.

During the Y205 period, X1 WARships are not suited for multi-role peacetime situations. Therefore, the Galactics need to look elsewhere for designs.

The X2 ships need more hull space and less crammed-in weapons to reflect the extended cruising range. I would expect an X2 ship have about the same number of boxes as its Y168 counterparts.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 08:43 pm: Edit

So, you are saying an X2 DD/CL will be the equivilant of an X1 CX?

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 08:45 pm: Edit

Hmm, I disagree again, at least with the Fed.

The Fed CX is still a good balance between war and science. Has the same Labs as a prewar CA same hull. same amount of room are on the inside.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 09:21 pm: Edit

There are reasons for most of the compromises that were presented and not everything yet is perfect. But, we have a reasonable framework to work within. The rough spots will get ironed out over time.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 09:29 pm: Edit

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So, you are saying an X2 DD/CL will be the equivilant of an X1 CX?

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By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 09:32 pm: Edit

I would think X2 will be build only. No conversions allowed.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 09:39 pm: Edit

Sorry about that. I didn't mean that X2 could be applied as a refit to an X1 ship.

All I meant by my last post is to say an X1 MC1 ship would have a similar BPV as an X2 MC 1/2 ship.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 12:18 am: Edit

I believe that the X2 CL (XCL) should be the fleet work horse. With X2 tech. it will have every bit the power in weapons and respect to fulfill that roll. When the need arises for a real show of strength then a XCC will show up. THe XCL will be far less expencive to opperate in fuel, supplies, and crew. You don't need a XCC to make first contact with a new race or to patrol the inner space of the Empire.

XDDs will be less capable but can take up the slack in policing, patrol and other less dangerous or critical missions. If there is trouble the squadrons are quickly formed with any combination of available ships. A XCL and two XDD even a XCC will think twice.

Speaking of XCC. I think the number of each would be at least one per fleet theater plus a couple extra that travel abroad. Feds would have one for the Klingon, Kzinti, Tholian, Romulans and Home Fleets plus two or three exploratory/diplomatic missions. So 6 to 8 XCCs in the first half dozen years. Then a new round to provide two per theater and so on. When the Xorkellians arive things go into high gear.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 12:54 am: Edit

The CX has a command rating of 10. The X2 CA should also be a 10, and I haven't heard anyone mention that they wanted to see ships with an 11 rating. Therefore, in the Y205 period, I see the line between a CA and a CC blurred to the point where one ship would be able to fill both roles.

As to how many XCAs get built in The Trade Wars period: whether it's 1-3 or 6-8, in SFB game terms the result is the same: "Limited Production - no more than one in a scenario".

I agree with Loren.
The XDD and XCL should be the workhorse.
The XCA fills the role that the X0 DN filled: fleet flagship, and a lot of firepower.

Understand, the BPV of an X2 DD is going to be comperable to an X0 DN.
A Fed X1 DD is 170. A 50% increase (for the tech-level jump) is 255, or at least in the 245-265 range.

When the Xorks arrive, that's a whole different era, and the rules that applied to ship deployment in Y205 won't work in Y225.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 12:46 pm: Edit

Well, I could see some surcomstances where the Exploritory/Diplomatic Mission XCC shows up with the Theater XCC for a rare senario with two XCC. But not more than that until the Xorkellian invasion.

I'm not sure that a XDD can be made to be worth 255 with out the kind of technologies that make them incompatable with GW. By this I mean a DD hull is only so big and even if you give it super weapons it can only have some much shields, power and hull. Even if it can put out the damage of a HDN it will still die like a DD(or maybe a CL) and so couldn't be worth the same. Simply designing a ship with the goal of +50% BPV is not so easy and I hope this group can have satifaction if that doesn't happen. It will be easier to make the XCC +50% than the XDD.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 01:22 pm: Edit

The 50% increase in BPV per tech level comes from extrapolating the other levels. EY->MY, MY->GW, GW->X1. In each case, there's roughly a 50% increase. And if we consider MY and GW as the same tech level, X0 with and without refits, then the jump from X0 to X1 is even larger.

Our group decided one time to fight a scenario involving a Hydran X1 Ranger (with Stinger-X) vs. an EY Klingon fleet (YDK, YDN, 3 D4, 3 F4, 3 D3). It was a rout.
The Hydran lost 3 stingers, 2 shields, and a dozen internals.
The Klingons lost the YDK, the YDN, all 3 D3s, 2 of the F4s, and 2 of the D4s, the other ships were crippled and ran once the dock blew up.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 02:04 pm: Edit

I only suggest that there is a top end.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 02:05 pm: Edit

The problem with continuing that progression is compound interest. You get ships that become insanely powerful as compared to GW.

The greater the power difference , the more liklihood that the ship becomes unbeatable when facing a much-lower-tech, but same-BPV set of opponents.

It's the CX fighting its BPV weight in EY ships. Regardless of points the technology just becomes obsolete after a while.

We may have to hold X2 back to keep it from be too advanced for GW to engage the way X1 is too advanced for EY to engage.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 02:17 pm: Edit

The math cannot match the increase in tech useing streight percentages.

100 BPV +50% = 150 BPV (+50 BPV)
150 BPV +50% = 225 BPV (+75 BPV)
225 BPV +50% = 337 BPV (+112 BPV)

This rate of increase is too much I think. At this point 50% is too much. More like adding just 75 BPV is a better choice.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 02:24 pm: Edit

I look at X-tech in a comparable way to Diesel and Nuclear powers ships.

We have old Diesel engines.

We have nuclear powered engines.

In between the two is a Gas turbine engine.

So, if GW is Diesel.

then X1 is gas turbine.

and X2 is nuclear power.


Several Diesels will be able to kill a nuclear warship, but at high cost. A Gas Turbine would probably be very close in combat, but is much less useful strategicly, becuase of fuel consumption.


I X1 and X2 shouold be able to fight fairly close. I really don't want to see a X2 DD that can take out the B-10. Hell, an X1 CX can't take out the B-10.

X2 should be:

1. Faster. More strategically than tactically.
2. More resilient. Like the SIF, but not a bigger hull for example.

3. More power. Have a few more toys.
4. Slightly better weapons.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 02:27 pm: Edit

I think we have been pushing things too far.

I think we should have better phasers, but not a huge difference. Just a point or 2 more damage at range. We could make a P5 that costs one point of power to use, but has an improved damage chart, same goes for all phasers.

With the heavies, just follow the improvements over GW by X1 and boom, X2.

The real benefit should be in strategic speed and operating distances.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 02:39 pm: Edit

And with the increased strategic speed and operating distances should be a reduction in the number of systems on an X2 ship as compared with an X1 or a CCH.

12 ph-5 on a MC1 ship does not reflect improved cruising range. It looks more like a BCH than a CA.

And I agree, a CX should not take on a B10. A Y225 CC may be close, but not a Y205 CA.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 02:53 pm: Edit

a Y205 CA is gonna be a CX......there would not be new tech after only 20 years in service.

X2 will over several years I would think.

X2 general fleet ships around Y220 or so, then X2 purpose warships when the Xorks come.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 02:55 pm: Edit

I would think that an X2 purpose warship will have 12-14 P5s. A general ship will have about 10 I would think.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 03:40 pm: Edit

Cfant: Let's start with the XCC with 10+2 phasers then when the Xorks come we have the XCB with 12 Ph-Vs and four Ph-1s or something like that.

The NWO boxes eliminated on the XCB. Cargo remains but the cargo in it would be war materials.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 04:26 pm: Edit

that sounds about right to me.