William wrote:
>>It is pretty much a given that every Peladine ship is as strong as the next class up of any other race (except perhaps the ISC). I don't know if the BPV reflects this accurately or not.>>

Well, if the BPV is reasonably appropriate, then it is ok that the ships seem wildly over effective for their size--like, if the Peladine DW costs, like, 115 BPV or something, then everything is fine. But as I have no idea what the BPVs are, I have no way to judge.

It just seems like, once again, my opponent's force is composed of an awful lot more ship than my force for the same BPV...

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, September 24, 2011 - 06:44 pm: Edit

Vudar ships seem ok to me, not overpowered.

By Peter Thoenen (Eol) on Sunday, September 25, 2011 - 09:41 pm: Edit

Some races I think are just like that Peter .. i.e. some are very maximizing at this size while others aren't (i.e. compare Zin to ISC).

BTW he's still legal with E4 (and if not would have been grandfathered):

DW(Y175)=106, DW(Y175)=106, DD+(y175) = 100

Not sure what the pre-E4 BPV's were.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Sunday, September 25, 2011 - 10:29 pm: Edit

I actually don't (yet) own E4. The versions of the Peladine I'm using are from Jessica's site, before they were taken down for E4 production. These are the versions that are online; SVC has said the E4 versions are not to be put online, for some reason.

The BPV is as Eol listed, above, except that doesn't include drone speeds or drone upgrades.

Just to point it out, I didn't design these ships; and they were approved for the campaign by the GM. I'm sorry if people are unhappy with them, but what can I do, other than offer to withdraw from the campaign?

The Peladine (pre-E4) saw extensive use in my 4-year SFB campaign. They certainly didn't prove unbalanced there, but that was across a much larger slice of the spectrum (DN to FF).

By Jean Sexton (Jsexton) on Sunday, September 25, 2011 - 10:47 pm: Edit

Dale, there is a embargo on all ships in new products keeping them from going on SFBOL for at least six months. That has been and continues to be standard practice. This allows us a chance to recoup the design time and other costs associated with the print copies.

By Peter Thoenen (Eol) on Sunday, September 25, 2011 - 11:50 pm: Edit

I don't think they are unbalanced here either Dale, at least not any more than the ISC, Vudar, and some others

You will always have top tier races at certain brackets .. this one just happens to work well for the Peladine.

By Josh Driscol (Gfb) on Monday, September 26, 2011 - 12:05 am: Edit

Im ISC, and look at Devils Federation Squadron or the Orion. Im clearly outgunned vs either of them even if these are nice DD's.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Monday, September 26, 2011 - 03:10 am: Edit

Jean, that's not what I'm talking about. It was my understanding that no ships from E4 (or the upcoming Borak module, E3) would ever be allowed on SFBOL, except for a few ships for playtesting purposes. Basically, that "E Modules" don't get to be on SFBOL.

Am I mistaken? Would love to be, I'd buy E4 right off.

By Francois Lemay (Princeton) on Monday, September 26, 2011 - 02:47 pm: Edit

I'm with Dale on this one, if E modules are not to be used in SFBOL, I will not buy them.

Cheers
Frank

By Jean Sexton (Jsexton) on Monday, September 26, 2011 - 03:08 pm: Edit

The question has been sent to SVC and to the Board of Directors. I'm sure they will let you know their decision when they reach it.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, September 26, 2011 - 04:44 pm: Edit

Dale wrote:
>>Just to point it out, I didn't design these ships; and they were approved for the campaign by the GM. I'm sorry if people are unhappy with them, but what can I do, other than offer to withdraw from the campaign?>>

No, no, no one is unhappy with them. Well, I'm not. I'm just surprised by how incredibly, well, optimal they look? Which isn't your fault even remotely. They were legal to take, and thus taken.

Between the Romulan conjectural F5WR ships that my previous opponent had (which I never actually fought, but man, those ships are crazy) and the Peladine ships that I get to fight now, I'm kind of baffled by the late addition arms race that seems to have slipped into the game. But again, only 'cause I wasn't paying attention and didn't take them myself.

Comparing the Peladine DW to the Gorn BDD+, just for comparison:

Peladine Shields: 24/21/21/21
Gorn Shields: 20/20/20/20

Peladine Power: 23 (18 wp), 3 battery
Gorn Power: 23 (16 wp), 2 battery

Peladine Weapons: 1xG, 2xF, 1xB rack, 5xP1
Gorn Weapons: 1xG, 2xF, 4xP1, 2xP3

Peladine Bulk: 8 hull, 3 lab, 3 shuttles, 4 control
Gorn Bulk: 8 hull, 2 lab, 4 shuttles, 3 control

Peladine BPV: 106 (say +2 for drones)
Gorn BPV: 98

So for an extra 10 BPV, the Peladine gets a drone rack, stronger shields, an extra battery, trades 2xAPR for 2xWarp, loses a shuttle, and trades 2xP3 for 1xP1. So really, not that unreasonable, in terms of cost when I look at them side by side.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Monday, September 26, 2011 - 05:22 pm: Edit

Peter, I knew you weren't trying to cast aspersions my way. ;)

BTW, one of my ships is not a DW, but a refitted DD. By way of comparison, it has:

Shields: 20/18/16/16
Power: 20 (16 wp), 2 battery
Weapons: 2xG, 1x P1, 6x P2, 1x Drone-B rack
Bulk: 8 hull, 4 lab, 3 shuttles, 3 control
BPV: 100 (say +2 for drones).

3 DWs would not fit, so my third ship is a refitted DD.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Monday, September 26, 2011 - 06:01 pm: Edit

Jean: Very interested to hear the decision on E-module ships as it will, of course, impact my ability to ever use them as more than light reading (and therefore, my decision to buy them).

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, September 26, 2011 - 06:24 pm: Edit

Dale wrote:
>>BTW, one of my ships is not a DW, but a refitted DD. By way of comparison, it has: >>

Heh. Yeah, that one is actually kind of more nuts than the DW--2xG torps and 7x P2/P1 for 100? Gadzooks.

So in comparison for total forces, my BDL+, BDD+, BDD+ force has 3xG torp, 6xF torp, 13xP1, 6xP3 as guns. Your Peladine force of DW+, DW+, DD+ has 4xG torp, 4xF torp, 11xP1, 6xP2, 3x B racks.

You are up a G torp, down 2xF torp, and down 2 total phasers, but you don't have any P3s. And up 3x B racks. So mostly kind of a wash, really in retrospect. On the up side, I probably have more points for t-bombs than you (I think? I don't even remember what the rules for COs are in this game anymore :-)

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Monday, September 26, 2011 - 06:46 pm: Edit

Peter,

Actually, I see the Peladine DD as a throwback to the Romulan Battlehawk. Similar armament... well, the BHR has 2x G, 4x ph-1, 2x ph-3, plus a cloak and nice square shields and armor for 88 BPV.

The ph-2 is much less optimal than a ph-1. Probably the only upside of it is that it is less painful to downfire as a ph-3 than a ph-1 is. It tends to, in practice, be relegated to a defensive role. It certainly doesn't hit as hard as a ph-1 at r8. In my experience, the Ph-2 "sweet spot" is r3...

By Troy Williams (Jungletoy) on Friday, September 30, 2011 - 06:28 pm: Edit

Bridge DWL Kratos
"Warp factor 3, hold present heading. Status!" Jungletoy said as he glanced up from the tactical display. Science Officer Fritz replied. " Disruptors cycled and hot. ECCM at 50%. 3 plasmas, 5 drones inbound, target unknown. Waiting for Lelantos and Nyx." The comm channel crackled. "Nyx here. All sensors active. We'll make warp factor 2.8 with ECCM umbrella and take trailing position. Attempting to break ECM drone lock-on." Jungletoy detected the excitement in Captain Elsbeth reply and glance around the bridge and noted that every crew member had there ears pinned back, eyes wide open and unblinking and the slow methodical swishing of tails was now jerky and frantic. Millions of years of evolution and feline body language could not be controlled. Jungletoy chuckled to himself. "This is why you never see a Lyran playing poker at any of the multi-racial starbases." The comm channel came alive with the sound of Captain Figmunds report. " Disruptors up, weapons found an issue with the UIM targeting interface and resolved it… Warp factor 3 maintaining combat formation juliet." Jungletoy replied. "Resolved…?" "Yes sir FEBT." Jungletoy heard Fritz behind him snort. FEBT…forced extraction, blunt trauma. He would be requisitioning another UIM module for the Lelantos next planet fall.


Bridge DWS Nyx
"Contact, ECM drone 1… Lock-on broken, ECM drone 2… Lock-on broken, ECM drone 3… Lock-on broken." Elsbeth stared intently at the tactical display then absently touched the intercom button. " Nice work gentlemen. Did we get the updated intel on these flying fish?" " Yes Captain, sensors show three type G or Fs depending on launcher configuration. We are unsure of the configuration as the the Displacer damage to our data banks is still restoring." "Get me the info as soon as possible, JT will want to know when it's safe to turn in." She glanced back to the display as tactical scenarios began play out in her mind. " If they are Gs why aren't they closing behind them? Five drones in the SP, 4 standards and a heavy, that was easy. At least they wern't Kzin with hundreds of drones in storage. Destroyer squadron fairly far from home with Klingon Type B launchers, 1 SP inert and 3 ECM drones meant they had used at least 25% of their stock so far. "Captain! Drone launch from all three ships." Three more dots appeared on her display. Correction, 32% of there drones…

Bridge DW Lelantos
"Bridge, we had a failure with one of the cargo motivators and pod crushed the power coupler to the WW we were holding. Arming process will have to restart." Figmunds brow furrowed. " The gods of war be ••••••. Begin re-arming. I don't think the Commander has any intention of dropping below warp 3 to weasel but anytime there is plasma I want one armed and ready." " Aye aye Captain." Figmund activated the battlenet comm. " Commander, lost arming on our WW and will have to recycle it. Plasma is closing." Figmund turned to his science officer. " Mark distance to plasma every 10 seconds. Figmund looked at the tactical display and pondered JTs next move. Nyx trailing and we are feinting to turn in. The drones and the plasma were targeted on the Kratos and the Lelantos most likely. Nyx was power starved providing ECCM and the three channels were active. This was going to get interesting. "Sir, Commander Jungletoy is on secure comm." Figmund took the ear piece from the ensign and responded. "Figmund here." Elsbeth was already on the line as JT began issuing orders.


Bridge DWL Kratos
"Let's see how the fish like paying for their EW. Lelantos- Continue formation juliet. Conserve power. We're looking for a disruptor solution on the DD. Nyx- Execute turn to mark 1.95 4 seconds after we turn. Drop # 2 and deploy Transporter bomb to coordinate 3417. You're in the furnace with a downed shield for a few seconds and they have 9 long range phasers in arc but bad solutions. Correct and prudent managment of power will decide this battle. We've drawn an SP, 11 drones if we can get them to to use phasers and pay for EW, their plasma rearming will be hampered and they will have to slow. We direct the tempo and pace in this engagement. No Heroes. JT out" "Secure command channel shut down in 2 seconds" came the computer voice into the JT's earpiece. He returned his focus to the tactical display. They should have outrun the the three plasmas tracking the Kratos and Lelantos but they were still on the tactical display. His hand jabbed the comm button. "Nyx, Those are Gs! Lelantos brace for impact, hold phaser fire!" The first two wash over the Lelantos and disipated harmlessy, the third tore at the Lelantos #3. Fritz looked up from his science station. "Lelantos #3 at 50% Commander." JT returned to his command chair. "Nyx, Let's get on top of this peladine intel disparity. It could have cost us dearly. " "Yes Commander the data banks are 100%. It won't happen again."

Figmunds image came up on the main display. If ever a feline looked like it was sweating Figmunds normally stoic nature seemed to be displaying just that. "Close call, but were fine. Vibrissae are a little singed…" The helm interrupted. "Sir shuttle launch." JT looked back to figmund. "Persistent little bastards aren't they. Hold fire he may be trying to draw fire off the DD. Helm turn to heading mark 7.54" He watched the display as the Kratos and Lelantos banked. The display registered the dropped shield of Nyx and subsequent deployment of a Transporter bomb interposed between the five drones bearing down on the Kratos. "5, 4 ,3, 2, 1 Boom. Two threats gone ladies and gentlemen" The five closely clustered drone package disappeared in the flash of the explosion. There were three drones further out that continued to track them and another potential scatter pack. The scatter pack was taking it's time deploying adding weight to a possible Peladine feint. JT would not be fooled. The only way to beat this juggernaut was to pull the teeth out of the Peladine's offensive arsenal. Taking down the DD would greatly even the odds.

JT glanced over the Peladines SSD. "War Cruisers in Destroyer clothing" he mused "Very efficient design despite the maneuverability. We shall exploit this to our advantage." He had thought very hard about his squadron configuration and chose a scout rather than another DW. But his operational posture and mission demanded a scout. The displacer beast at QX57 had shown the strength of the scout both in information gathering and fire solution enhancement in a very heavy EW environment. Now despite being clearly over matched, the Nyx was beginning to assert it's dominance once again as a strong utility hull. The Peladine Commander was probably reprimanding the drone control personnel for grouping the drones for an easy transporter bomb deployment. He smiled as his brows furrowed. "Definitely not Kzinti style." They would have to endeavor harder to make less mistakes than the Peladines. "Helm bring us around we want to setup camp on their #4." "Aye, aye Captain." The Peladine shuttle was still flashing red on his display. The Peladine Commander is very crafty and if the shuttle was an admin they would give it special attention when it got in range. "Sir three more plasmas joining the party, Nyx is running intel, standby."

Bridge DWS Nyx
Captain Elsbeth finished sending the updated intel analysis on the Peladine hulls and a tactical analysis of their current capability. She scanned the tactical display as the Kratos and Lelantos slowly circled with the Peladine squadron gaining on the rear of their formation. The Peladine shuttle that began to look more and more like an admin imposter slowed and dispensed it's payload. " Commander the SP popped. Probably 4 standards and a heavy" There was a brief silence then Jt's voice came over the comm. "Lelantos, on my mark fire narrow salvo of disruptors at the DD."Hold, hold, in arc FIRE!" She watched as six disruptor bolts crossed the vast distance between the combatants, three of which struck home on the Peladine DD's #2. Looks like the Kratos gunners would be buying a round of drinks for the Lelantos gunners and quit sure the Kratos weapons officers was drawing JT's ire. "Cycle the channels we've got plasma and eight bogies inbound" By her accounting they'd drawn two SPs, three ECM drones and thirteen other. And they had managed to score shield damage on the Peladine DD and drew two pseudos for their trouble. It would have been better if the Lelantos didn't eat one plasma. She would be buying Figmund a drink as well…

- to be continued-

By Christopher M Schrader (Eastcoastfolk) on Friday, September 30, 2011 - 07:28 pm: Edit

That was one of the finest battle narratives I'v read on the BBS. I see Captain's Log stories in your future.

By Troy Williams (Jungletoy) on Saturday, October 01, 2011 - 12:24 pm: Edit

Thanks Chris, just a little poetic license with the standard battle report. And it's in line with Mikes flavor for this campaign. Is there a style guide for SFU? I was fortunate to find the warp reference to hex movement in the C section of the rulebook but I'm unclear on other vernacular for other things like distance (kilometers to hex) and less rulebook style nomenclature for ships systems. Other than that the character references are pets and animals around the ranch.

Commander Jungletoy..... Me
Captain Figmund (Figgy).... Our gray and white tuxedo cat.
Captain Elsbeth (Ellie)... Our other gray and white tuxedo cat.
Major Thorvald (Thor).... One of our border collies.
Admiral Loki (not intro'd yet).... Our other border collie
Chief Science Officer Fritz... A bear that comes around every 7-9 days and stands our garbage can upside down in the driveway because he can't get it open.

I'm angling for a Legendary Science Officer on the Nyx to even up the squadron battles a little.

By Francois Lemay (Princeton) on Saturday, October 01, 2011 - 09:31 pm: Edit

Kzinti and Tholians mixed it up this afternoon.
We're at T2.18 and the fleets are nose to nose !
Fire was brutal with Kzinti getting 56 on DD Pyrite at R1 with no shift resulting in 28 internals and Thols getting 64 on DD Minotaur at R1 with a +2 shift resulting in 43 internals.

No other damage to Kzinti ships but Tholians DD Calcite has 11 internals ( through # 6 ) and DD Barite has the previous 4 warp damage and a # 3 shield down to 3 boxes.
DD Copper is unscathed.

Lots of drones on map at R1 to Tholian fleet so hopefully some of them will hit.

Both fleets dry of weapons as well except Kzinti still has some drone launches available but with Tholian fleet at speed 24, its unlikely a speed 20 drone will catch up !

No set date to continue as yet.

Cheers
Frank

By John M Ledbetter (Daltwisney) on Sunday, October 02, 2011 - 08:50 am: Edit

With regret, I am going to have to withdraw from this campaign.
I just can't seem to find the time that I thought I would have for it.
So, rather than cause any more delay than I already have, the Hydran Admiral tenders his resignation.
Hopefully, in a future incarnation of this, I will be back, and can more fully participate.

By Mike Johnson (Akira) on Sunday, October 02, 2011 - 03:09 pm: Edit

OK John no problem, thx for letting me know.

GaiusFrackingBaltar was scheduled to face DaltWisney's Hydrans in scenario 2 and Krellex was to battle them in scenario 3.

GFB and Krellex will now face each other; this will replace GFB's scenario 2 and Krellex's scenario 3 battle.

Good luck gentlemen!

By Josh Driscol (Gfb) on Monday, October 03, 2011 - 11:35 pm: Edit

Ok thanks Mike Ill try to get in touch with Fred and set something up. Sorry to see you leave the game John. Ive had plenty of Hydran on the menu lately so I cant say its entirely a dissapointment. Of course I have no idea what empire Krellex is taking for this round.

I also need to set up the game with Devil, we have spoken, and as always it will be a scheduling nightmare, but we will get it done.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, October 11, 2011 - 10:39 am: Edit

Mike,

Just a refresher on what the Commander's Options points rule is in this game--do we get 20% of free money, or do we just get whatever the difference is between what our force costs and 325 points (i.e. if we have 305 points worth of ships, we get 20 points for COs)?

Just checking in.

By Mike Johnson (Akira) on Wednesday, October 12, 2011 - 07:36 am: Edit

Peter- it is a percentage of BPV spent on your force and is not limited by the 325 BPV rule.

By Troy Latta (Saaur) on Wednesday, October 12, 2011 - 10:49 am: Edit

Wow, I totally missed that. What's the percentage? standard 20% or something different?