If the BD being referred to is the Drex Battledestroyer, the rules needed to fly it are on e23...

By Paul Scott (The_Rock) on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 11:15 am: Edit

They were not at the time. They have since been purchased, at least by me.

Why? Because someone (me) who has absolutely no interest in Omega happened to be in a campaign on SFBOL where the ships were allowed.

Because ships were on SFBOL and because a product was available on e23, ADB made a sale they would not have otherwise made...

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 11:44 am: Edit

Passing around jpgs or PDFS of copyrighted stuff is a violation of law and copyright and will get you into a load of trouble. Openly stating the intent to violate the law is just plain stupid as it means you're guilty if we decide to do anything about it. (Sheesh, you think we don't keep a certified copy of everything said there?) The theory that because you can hand a face-to-face opponent your rulebook for a few minutes absolutely does NOT mean you can email an on-line opponent copyrighted material. That's been proven in court (not by us) plenty of times and has never been proven "ok".

Yes, it is a problem, and the problem should never have happened, but nobody told us that Aaron had uploaded an SSD until (a year or two later) he had uploaded a thousand of them. By then, it was too late to undo the damage, damage that has cost the company, every year, more than Paul Scott's salary. The damage to SFB sales has been pretty devastating and while we let it continue, we no longer will. We had thought that the problem was 80% caused by piracy and 20% by SFBOL, but recent events have shown that it was 80% caused by SFBOL and 20% by piracy, and we have had piracy under control for a while now.

I suspect that there will never been a new SSD uploaded to SFBOL except for certain samples (3 or 4 per new product).

By Jean Sexton (Jsexton) on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 11:55 am: Edit

Before any conversation about copyright gets started here, please restrain those inclinations and post them in my topic.

Thank you for your cooperation,

Jean
WebMom

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 12:42 pm: Edit

Surely, losing the SSDs for new products will definitely limit the ability for SFBOL to be a meaningful way for gamers to play remotely.

What about the idea I'd kicked around ages and ages ago - new products get an 'unlock key' printed in them (even if it's a generic one for all copies of that product) that users have to enter to get access to the ships in SFBOL?

That is - even with an SFBOL account, you do not automatically get access to all ships and content in the library. New products need to have a key entered to 'unlock' those ships.

That makes the question of 'unauthorized access' to the SSDs a piracy question, again. You'd simply have to watch the conversation logs periodically, and do Google searches periodically, for the unlock codes provided. (Heck, given that the SFBOL client 'knows' the unlock codes, anyway, you could even make it scramble those text strings if anyone tried to type them into the chat window to give to another player)

By Jean Sexton (Jsexton) on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 01:02 pm: Edit

Xander, you underestimate some people. We have piracy with torrent feeds. We have people advocating joining SFBOL, downloading the library, then quitting. I've personally had people ask me if I could just photocopy the pages of G2 for "their empire." I fear we would just have an underground trade of access codes via email. No one thinks that "just me" or "just once" hurts a company, but you multiply it and it does.

With all my heart and soul, I wish you were right. But Evil Jean (the one who is the GM) is pretty sure that the first paragraph is accurate.

This is an evolving concept and we are not sure where it will lead.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 01:26 pm: Edit

It's a big subject, and there will be a solution, but one I won't really pursue until after CL44.

We might go back to the old "non-SSD" system which would allow the ships to be used in SFBOL but not downloaded.

There may be other ways, but an "unlock key" is the biggest joke of a security feature ever known.

By Mike Kenyon (Mikek) on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 03:11 pm: Edit

Steve, I've got a couple possible solutions for this issue. I'll drop them to you offline when I'm home.

By Shawn Hantke (Shantke) on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 03:50 pm: Edit

Find a way for sfbol to be able to look in your e23 library, and only allow you access to ships in your e23 library. Offer the tournament ssds as a free e23 download.

By Stephen McCann (Moose) on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 04:33 pm: Edit

"Find a way for sfbol to be able to look in your e23 library, and only allow you access to ships in your e23 library"

So Shawn, to really be able to use SFBOL for anything other than tournaments you you want to require me to rebuy hundreds, if not thousands of dollars of products I already own (in their original form) in digital format?

By Shawn Hantke (Shantke) on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 04:52 pm: Edit

@Stephen How else can you prove you bought the products, I doubt they have the records from the Star Fleet Store and I am positive your brick and mortar store won't have the records. You don't own digital versions since they haven't been released yet. Yes it sucks, I will have to buy them all too, but some bad apples who didn't buy are going to screw it up for those of us who did, and if ADB makes no money, they go away and so does SFB Online. I would rather bite the bullet and buy stuff twice than not be able to buy anything new at all.

I liked 8 tracks so I bought those, then I had to buy cassettes, then CDs and now digital MP3s.

I bought pocket box ed, then Designers ed, then commanders. Then the various Captains editions and updates. I will buy the electronic editions too.

PS I have never played Fed Com, Starmada, ACTA or F&E but i buy them too, since they say SFU on them.

By Jean Sexton (Jsexton) on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 05:01 pm: Edit

I don't think that anyone wants SFBOL looking at your ebooks, wherever you have them stored, or logging into your e23 account. And of course we don't want to force people to repurchase materials they already bought. If we went this route, we'd want to have a way to verify that you have the paper copy.

By Shawn Hantke (Shantke) on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 05:59 pm: Edit

I don't see any way to verify you have a paper copy that couldn't be faked other than rebuying from the star fleet store.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 08:54 pm: Edit

A friend of mine wants to copy my Electronic Master's Rule Book rather than buy it. This sort of thing is definitely a problem. Some people simply will NOT pay for something if there's a way (legal or not) to get it for free.

I've also seen a post from someone saying they'll make their own library for new ships or find some other workaround if this situation (no new SSDs for SFB Online?) doesn't blow over. o_O

By Jean Sexton (Jsexton) on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 10:09 pm: Edit

As have I and I was quite shocked to see the people involved. You know, such plans just prove SVC's point that people seem willing to circumvent normal business practices. To those who are scoffing about lost sales, you haven't gotten the emails asking why you should waste your money buying SSDs on e23 when you get them for free via SFBOL. Apparently you've ignored posts elsewhere that suggested that people NOT buy new products because they either were on or would be on SFBOL. We can prove the lost sales. And yes, it upsets me that people act like this. Like Xander, I prefer to think of people as good and this shakes my faith in people.

Do we know how much SFBOL means to the community? Of course we do. And we intend to work closely with Paul to keep SFBOL going strong. Unlike some people, we tend to work on business privately -- just because you are not privy to the discussions doesn't mean they are not happening.

So, I am asking you to be patient and not throw fuel on the fire. Give us credit for being one of the most fan-responsive companies around. Give us time to resolve this in a fair and equitable way.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 10:27 pm: Edit

Checking your e23 purchases is not really an option.

Just let us deal with this. Nothing is even going to be thought about before CL44 is finished, so any posts are just wasted time and we'll just delete any more. It just does not need a lot of public speculation and nothing said here has been helpful.

By Peter Thoenen (Eol) on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 11:25 pm: Edit

[Deleted since SVC ended discussion per his last post. J. Sexton]

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, November 04, 2011 - 01:18 am: Edit

[Provoking post deleted, so no longer needed. J. Sexton]

By Jean Sexton (Jsexton) on Friday, November 04, 2011 - 02:18 am: Edit

Gentlemen, enough. SVC said further posts would be deleted and they will be.

Jean
WebMom

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, November 04, 2011 - 01:37 pm: Edit

Guys, we will solve this, but not before CL44 goes to press. Just hang in there.

Obviously, there is at least one workable solution (non-graphic ship presentations that even if you download them are useless outside of SFBOL) so we know it will be solved. Maybe we can find a better way, but I don't see any "secure" way to make graphic SSDs available.

And I need to focus on CL44 so we can discuss this later. Any emails to me on the subject are going to be deleted unread and a reply will say "send back after CL44 is released".

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, November 04, 2011 - 04:46 pm: Edit

For those who want real numbers, royalties SFBOL pays to ADB, Inc., average about $125 a month.

Losses to SFB sales caused by "free products on SFBOL" are hard to count but appear to be more than $5000 per month. (Even if that's ten times the real loss, and it's not, we're losing money on SFBOL. We don't have SFBOL to make money, but we sure don't have it to lose money.) [I obviously have no idea what salary any of you received for whatever you do in the real world.]

By Christopher M Schrader (Eastcoastfolk) on Friday, November 04, 2011 - 08:34 pm: Edit

Pardon Me,

A players story.

I found my way into the Star Fleet Universe in 1989 and till the mid 90's played SFB and F&E mostly solo and with friends willing to learn just enough of the rules to turn and shoot. With a limited number opponents and only a part time income I obtained:

Volume 1
Volume 2
Volume 3
Supplement #1 Fighters
Commander's SSD Book #1
Commander's SSD Book #2
Commander's SSD Book #3
Commander's SSD Book #4
Commander's SSD Book #5
Commander's SSD Book #6
Commander's SSD Book #7
Commander's SSD Book #9
Captain's Rulebook (BS,AM,C1,C2)
Cadet Training Manual
Module A (Battlecards!)
Module B (Terrain Maps)
Module F1 (The Jindarians)
Module R1 (Bases & Auxiliaries)
Module R2 (Fed, Kzi, And, Ori)
Module R3 (Kli,Hyd,Wyn,Lyr)
Module R4 (Rom,ISC,Gor,Tho)
Module R5 (Battleships)
Module R6 (The Fast Warships)
Module J (Fighters!)
Module K (Fast Patrol Ships)
Module C3 (New Worlds III)
Module X1 (The X-Ships)
Module S2 (Scenario Book #2)
Module M (Star Fleet Marines)
Reinforcements #2
SSD Book (Advanced Missions)
Module C4 (Fleet Training Centers)
Module P3 (Scenarios – 1)
Module P4 (Marines!)
Module P5 (Lyran Democratic Republic)
Tactics Manual
Module T (Tournament Book)
Module D2 (Tournament Tactics)
Module D3 (Booms & Saucers)
Module G1 (Master Annex File)


Captain's Log #1
Captain's Log #2
Captain's Log #5
Captain's Log #8
Captain's Log #9
Captain's Log #10
Captain's Log #11
Captain's Log #12
Captain's Log #13
Captain's Log #14
Captain's Log #15
Captain's Log #16
Captain's Log #17


Federation & Empire (Deluxe)
Fleet Pack (Deluxe)
Carrier War (Total War Part 1)
Module #1 (Special Operations)
Module #2 (Marine Assault)

Prime Directive
Graduation Exercise
Prime Adventures 1
Uprising!

Last fall I found SFBOL and lo many players willing to spend the time to play, teach, and promote SFB.

This directly led to me updating my collection of SFB material with; Inv # 00022536:

Master Rulebook 2010
Module G3
Scenario Book 1
Module TR
Module C5
Module F2
Module T
Module J2
Omega Master Rulebook
Captains Log 28
Captains Log 3
Captains Log 4
Captains Log 6
Captains Log 7
Captains Log 18
Captains Log 19
Captains Log 28

Becoming an active player again brought me to the BBS often and I learned of Cyberboard and that there was a way to play F&E without devoting a room of my house to set up, or weeks of play being threatened by the house Lyran and Kzinti.

So I went to E23 and bought:
F&E 2010 Rulebook
F&E Chart Book
F&E Compendium

So is there Unauthorized use of copyright material when I use a ship in SFBOL that I don't have a hard copy or e version of that ship. Is it ok if the player I'm on-line with has that product.

Without a site like SFBOL where will I find the players to warrant buying more products. I don't think I could in Nova Scotia.

I have confidence in the players I meet online. I'v been given recommendations on what products I should buy, not how to get copies.

If a abuser obtains a copy of a product that he would never buy he is a thief, but you did not lose a sale. If a player tries out a ship on-line from a product he is interested in and likes it you may have gained a sale. If he dose not like it you may lose a sale that could have resulted in a disappointed customer. The best I can do as a customer is avoid playing with people I think are abusing the trust ADB and Paul Franz has placed us. If the creative energies of the games producers are not rewarded WE ALL LOSE.

We must all take care to protect this community.

Just one players thoughts.

Christopher,

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, November 04, 2011 - 08:53 pm: Edit

I realize that I may be an exception, but I too play nearly exclusively online (SFBOL, Cyberboard). I always make sure to buy physical copies of all products because I like the SSDs, the references, and - most of all - it's only fair to pay the workers who produced the products I use. So Christopher is not alone. Just an FYI really.

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Friday, November 04, 2011 - 10:09 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

Losses to SFB sales caused by "free products on SFBOL" are hard to count but appear to be more than $5000 per month.

---

By Peter Thoenen (Eol) on Friday, November 04, 2011 - 11:02 pm: Edit

Do people actually use cyberboard? I thought all the F&E stuff was on vassal (or maybe I am just misremebering)