Archive through January 23, 2003
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board: The "X" Files: OLD X2 FOLDER: X2 photons: Archive through January 23, 2003
By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 08:56 pm: Edit

Quote:

Two common gripes about it are that it's badly affected by EW, and that it can't be fired at R1 unless overloaded



I don't hear one of those complaints all that often.
The Photons can hit 5/6 of the time at R2 so why would the miopic zone bother you?
The photon can be converted to 9 point warheads for 0.5 points of Reserve Warp per tube.
Overloaded photon auto hit at R1 ( better than disruptors!?! ) practically everybody uses overloads...you'ld be teaching people to play when the overloads aren't in play, but why be a bastard and tractor the Fed at R1 during a training game!?!


As for greatly effected by EW...that's an oldy but a goody.
I'ld rather go not with a complete changing of the way photons hit but rather with a something that capitalises on what already exists...proximity overloads.
Sure you'll do half damage but with that 5/6 chance to hit at R8, you'll be as affected by EW as a UIM disruptor.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 08:59 pm: Edit

Actually, John, I based the numbers as being between the current photon, and the Hellbore. I didn't want the photon to be as accurate as the Hellbore, just more accurate than it currently is. The 2d6 is to help with EW resistance. As for the 100% at range 0-1, that's what it currently is, so I don't think it hurts anything. I could live with an 18 point overload, provided it couldn't be held.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 09:07 pm: Edit

Mike, changing the X2 photon to a 2D6 weapon changes it WAY too much. It would be totally different.

And if it isn't on the auto-reject list, I'd be willing to bet SVC will put it there as soon as he reads your post.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 09:27 pm: Edit

Quote:

As for the 100% at range 0-1, that's what it currently is, so I don't think it hurts anything. I could live with an 18 point overload, provided it couldn't be held.



I'ld be perfectly happy to see a 2 turn 24 point photon that could be held.

Think about it.

You launch at R8.
4 x 3/6 x 24 = 48 points of damage.

The Klingon launches his Hyperload ( Double Overload damage for double cost, with an auto UIM burnout ) at R8.
6 x 5/6 x 12 = 60

Even if the Klingons just used their regular overloads, you be throwing a two turn weapon at them for 48 damage and they'ld be throwing 30 damage at you every turn...at least until they ran out of UIM modules.

I'ld say it should be that you can hold a 20 pointer under the usual rules and 21-24 points can be held but all the holding power must be warp power and that that would be restriction enough.


Ain't it funny that I originally though 24 pointers should be a three turn weapon!?!

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 09:57 pm: Edit

From SVC:

Quote:

Assume that Module X2 is Second Generation X-Technology, new hulls and new gizmos. Could be improvements of the existing (probably still have phasers) but could be whole new things.



I take that to mean we have some latitude. Changing the photon to a 2D6 weapon for X2 isn't that drastic. It still isn't as accurate as some 0X weapons...how can it be considered a non-starter, based on that? I could see it being a problem if the to-hit numbers were wildly out of whack, but the fact is, they aren't. They are moderately better than they are with a D6. The greatest difference, percentage wise, is in the range 16 to 23 bracket...about 11%. That's less than a one point difference if still using a D6 and changing the hit number by one (say, from 1-3 to 1-4...a difference of 16%).

Further, at the 31-40 bracket, you actually loose accuracy with standards...a deliberate trade-off, since proxies are a bit better. I just don't see this being such a massive change that it couldn't be acceptable. Yes, it's different, but it doesn't break anything, and that's the important thing.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 10:39 pm: Edit

I think a 2d6 photon chart could be made to work. My biggest gripe about the photon is it is an inconsistant weapon and a jackpot will frequently end the game. The 2d6 approach might help, not sure.

"You realize that a 12 to hit with OLs at 0-1 makes it as good as a mauler with a better firing arc?"

Assuming a 16 point photon held for 2 power that's an 8 to 1 power ratio. That makes it about 4 times better than a mauler. The 8 to 1 power ratio of held photons is my second largest gripe.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 11:04 pm: Edit

Yeah, but to get it to that 8:1 point takes a lot of warp power. The photon is fine as a weapon. Don't start talking about taking away grom it in X2.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 11:14 pm: Edit

Tos,

Not true. The photon gives a 2:1 damage-to-arming energy ratio. Hold cost preserves that 2:1 for future turns.

In X1 and X2 we'll be seeing lots of 1-turn shots, so holding costs won't figure prominently anyway.

My point was that in giving an OL photon a 12 to hit at range 0-1 makes it very maulerlike without the mauler disadvantage of narrow firing arc.

The difference between a 12 and 6 is massive when you consider the impact of EW.

Put a 1 ECM shift on both and the 1d6 drops to 5, whcih means the 100% hit drops to 83%. Dropping the 12 to the 11 only drops the hit chance to 97%

A -2 ECM shift is even more dramatic: 66%(1d6) vs. 92%(2d6).

This is why the 12 for overloads is so powerful. Photons at 0-1 are almost immune to EW. My suggestion is that Mike return the overload 0-1 to 10 and combine it with the standard load chart.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 12:05 am: Edit

But then the OL loses the ability to autohit at range 0, and that has been that way for decades.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 01:52 am: Edit

I still say, having a Proximity overload deals with the EW effect without changing the nature of play.

Rolling 1D6 per photon is second nature to people, it's quick to resolve.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 08:30 am: Edit

Quote:

Put a 1 ECM shift on both and the 1d6 drops to 5, whcih means the 100% hit drops to 83%. Dropping the 12 to the 11 only drops the hit chance to 97%



Huh? Unless I'm missing something, the chance to hit is 10 of 11 (2-12 being 11 possible results from two dice). That works out to be 91%, or about 8% more than 5 out of 6. It isn't THAT bad. And, frankly, it should be better. I recognize the to hit rolls are better, but didn't change the autohit at R1 and 0 for two reasons. One, I don't advocate increasing the damage...the photon is already a great crunch weapon, so increasing that isn't a good way to go, IMHO. The second reason is that it's always been an autohit at R0 and 1. If I changed it, you'd have people immediately screaming that it should still autohit. With the one exception of that range, this proposal is still less accurate than a plain-jane, OX helbore. For a 2X weapon, that's pretty darned modest.

By Martin Read (Amethyst_Cat) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 08:51 am: Edit

Basic probability. 2d6 generates '12' if, and only if, two 1-in-6 events (1d6 coming up '6') happen. The probability of this is 1 in 36. There are two ways to get 11, three to get 10, four to get 9, five to get 8, and six to get 7; 6-2 behave like 8-12. There's a *reason* why all the really nasty oneoff hits (command decks, damcon, sensor/scanner) are on the 2 or 12 tracks of the DAC...

By Jonathan Dean (Nightshade) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 09:03 am: Edit

<deleted by author>

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 09:33 am: Edit

"I still say, having a Proximity overload deals with the EW effect"

Lets expand on that proximity idea. Lets say a photon hits for full damage on standard roll. 3/4 damage gets you a -1 to hit. 1/2 damage gets you a -2 to hit. 1/4 damage gets you a -3 to hit.

That should truly give the Feds the wonder weapon dial-a-torp they crave without having to radically up damage.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 10:26 am: Edit

I prefer Mike's table.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 12:21 pm: Edit

You know in a way Mike's table will improve the accuracy of the standard and the OL but will hurt the accuracy of the Proximity Photon, unless you double the shift.

I like the Photon dice idea but it would require a whole different look at the way photons hit on the chart due to statistical averages of results skewed to the middle results (5 to 8). And 8 or better to hit is about a 1-5 on a single die. Photons will hit a lot more often.

Lets also consider the short range Prox. how about making the minimum range of the Proximity Photon at four or six and allowing OL. That's a lot of power. It puts the ratio at 1:1 but almost guarantees a hit. Your window of oppertunity is minimal however. For a fast pair of opponants you may only have one impulse to fire.

Just considering. I'm not sure either will be acceptable to G.O.D.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 09:27 pm: Edit

Quote:

Lets expand on that proximity idea. Lets say a photon hits for full damage on standard roll. 3/4 damage gets you a -1 to hit. 1/2 damage gets you a -2 to hit. 1/4 damage gets you a -3 to hit.

That should truly give the Feds the wonder weapon dial-a-torp they crave without having to radically up damage.



That's an extention of my Proximity and Vacinity idea.

I'm not sure if the 1/4 damage 3 mod on the die roll will work, but perehapos it'll be the locality mode...or maybe just the 3/4 and mod 1 and 1/2 mod 2 will creat the needed effect.

Quote:

I like the Photon dice idea but it would require a whole different look at the way photons hit on the chart due to statistical averages of results skewed to the middle results (5 to 8). And 8 or better to hit is about a 1-5 on a single die. Photons will hit a lot more often.



And easier why to do it is to say the the Photons have a Primary ( advanced speed ) and secondary ( regular ) fire control computer for Photons.

The attacker rolls the dice ( 1D6 ) for the lock on of the primary fire control computer. If the player doesn't like the result then he can choose to fire under the secondary fire control computer and rolls another D6 with that result sticking. Or if he likes the result of the primary fire control computer then he may choose to take it has his result.

The computers are working much faster than the mind of any crew member and work automatically.
There can be no impulse break between making the two resolutions or anything like that, the computers just resolve between themselves which fire solution of the two systems shall be accepted and the Photon is launched, the player just pretends that his mind is the process of the two computers resolving which fire solution shall be used.

Radically different results without changes to the chart.

Personnally I'ld still rather have proximity overloads and allow that to deal with the Photns suck in an EW enviroment problem.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 09:59 pm: Edit

MJC,

Potential KISS problems.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 10:22 pm: Edit

If the Feds managed to get their photons as accurate as a hellbore, maybe they got other secrets from the Hydrans, like Enveloping Mode.

Ducks and runs for cover

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 10:22 pm: Edit

Yeah...I'ld rather just overloaded Proxies and capitalise on what already exists.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 12:49 am: Edit

Jeff T.
A splash effect Photon??


What could a photon do?? Hmmm.

Well, I had an idea a long time ago about a Photon that delays just a bit when it hits and explodes behind the target, hitting the opposite shield. (If it hits, roll a die to see if it hits for full or half damage.) Imagine the Klingon Captain saying "Ha, lousy Photons never hit...BOOM...Wha...??"

Or...a Mirv Photon? Breaks into Multiple warheads of four points each (so a OL 16 pointer breaks into 4 warheads) and each roll to hit. Myopic zone of 4 and no proximity fuse available.

A transporter Photon? Start the range from where ever you transport it....Hahahahaha. Just kidding!

So I ask, what could a photon do that's not outragous and game breaking?

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 01:07 am: Edit

gggrrrr. quit messing with my photon. Just improve the To-Hit a bit, and life if peachy. KISS>?

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 01:12 am: Edit

Agreed. The Propoals board is a wasteland of (mostly) discredited photon proposals.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 02:02 am: Edit

Some of them were only discreditied because they gave the Feds an advatage that non photon users didn't get.

With X2 we can give the other races either their own added advantage or more weapons to retain parity.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 02:23 am: Edit

I think if there is a way to add some spice to the Chicken Noodle Soup then do it. Just don't add too much. CNS is easy to ruin cause it's the chicken that makes it good!

:O

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