Sure you can launch it. Ballistically. There's even a rule for it that I don't feel like looking up right now.
But if there's no control channel, your vessel has no way of transmitting any kind of targeting information to the torpedo at the instant of launch so it flies dumb. Once you've told it what to look for you can release it to its own control but until then it doesn't know what to look for.

By Frank Di Vincenzo (Madoverload) on Thursday, February 23, 2012 - 07:44 pm: Edit

Show me where it says that. Because I looked for it. I didn't find it, and I don't think it exists. Nor is there anywhere in the rules that even imply that a weapon launched without an available control channel is launched ballistically. The only rule you've mentioned so far about any of this I've quoted above, showing nowhere in it where the channel is required to launch.

And even what you said is true then what you told Droid about being able to launch six drones with plasma under control would be wrong, It would mean some of the drones you launched would have to have been launched ballistically to do what you claim could be done. Your statements are not consistent.

From a spirit of the rules POV I think you and Josh are right. But the written rules do not support it.

By Nick G. Blank (Nickgb) on Thursday, February 23, 2012 - 09:36 pm: Edit

Rules (F3.531), and the second paragraph of (FD5.21) both support the notion that you must have an available control channel before launching a seeking weapon, even a self guiding one. Rule (F3.421) says such launcher control is assumed until you legally transfer it, so of course you need a control channel to have such initial control. Rule (FP4.2) while not stating that you must have a control channel at launch, is written from the perspective that you do have such control at launch and only can transfer it after launch (FP4.21). The only ways to get around the control channel issue are with Ballistic Targetting and self guided seeking weapon launch with Passive Fire control.

I see what you are saying though in regards to there not being a rule that plainly states you must have an available control channel at the moment of launch under normal fire control, but this is how it is meant to work. (F3.42) and (F3.421) are probably the closest you are going to find. It is assumed that the launching unit will control the weapon at launch, then later you can transfer said control. Perhaps it should say this is a requirement rather than using the term "assumed." I think that (F3.421) taken with (F3.531) and the second paragraph of (FD5.21) seem pretty clear to me though.

Trying to say that you can launch without a control channel and them claim out of sequence transfer (involuntary transfer) to self guiding does not make sense, you have to have control to begin with before you can transfer said control (voluntarily or involuntarily). The rules seem to assume you are controlling the launch with a valid control channel when you launch even if they don't plainly spell this out so that is the default condition. The only rules that then cover seeking weapon launches specifically beyond this base case allowing no launching unit guidance at all are ballistic targetting and passive fire control.

Yes, the rules could perhaps be more clear, but I am sure this is how it is meant to work regardless.

By Frank Di Vincenzo (Madoverload) on Thursday, February 23, 2012 - 10:52 pm: Edit

Oh I agree, I'm pretty sure that's the intent. Otherwise, the fluff explaining why firing self-guiders under passive fire control has a plus-5 hex range requirement wouldn't make sense.

But intent is subjective. And assumptions founded on perceived intent... well... I understand why the argument against that assumption can be made.

By Troy Latta (Saaur) on Thursday, February 23, 2012 - 11:48 pm: Edit

(D19.224), dude.
As far as my statement to Droid, you're comparing apples to oranges. If you want to drop tracking on two drones you can, indeed, launch two plasma without them being ballistic. It's the same thing as dropping tracking on two plasma when you launch the last two drones. Except the plasma will pick up their own targets since you controlled them long enough to tell them what they're looking for.

By Frank Di Vincenzo (Madoverload) on Friday, February 24, 2012 - 12:20 am: Edit

D19.224. Hmmm. Okay, I can buy that.

But still, your statement to Droid is NOT apples and oranges to this. The control channels are still in use at the time the drones are launched. And by the very rule you presented, the ship can't launch more seeking weapons than it can control. It can;t voluntarily drop the plasma at the instant of launch. That step has already passed by. I don't see how you can think one is okay but the other isn;t. Your statements are still contradictory.

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Friday, February 24, 2012 - 04:54 am: Edit

I don't think (D19.224) is relevant. It states that a ship with active fire control may not use passive fire control to launch weapons above its control limits. I don't see anywhere in the argument that the WAX player was claiming the plasmas were launched passively.

The claim as I understand it seems to be that the plasmas were launched actively but then immediately dropped from tracking. That for some micro-instant, eight seeking weapons were controlled and then two were involuntarily dropped. That statement does not hold up. For a seeking weapon to be controlled, it must be assigned to a control channel which must be unused at the point of launch. The two plasmas were never controlled at any point in time.

By Troy Latta (Saaur) on Friday, February 24, 2012 - 09:35 am: Edit

If you have six weapons (drones, plasma, QWT, whatever) in space you can launch two more if you drop tracking on two previous. You're right that it has to be a voluntary release right before you launch, but it's all part of the same step in the sequence of play.
If you don't drop tracking, you can only launch ballistically, because that takes no control channel. (D19.224) is relevant because it's the only place I can find that states unequivocally you have to have a channel to control a seeking weapon at the instant of launch (even if it states it by exception).

By Josh Driscol (Gfb) on Friday, February 24, 2012 - 01:08 pm: Edit

Thanks to all who have helped with this question.

By Josh Driscol (Gfb) on Friday, February 24, 2012 - 04:21 pm: Edit

Does anyone know if the Peladine playtest ship is supposed to have pseudo F torps?

By Mike Kenyon (Mikek) on Friday, February 24, 2012 - 05:44 pm: Edit

Catching up this thread, I noticed that T-2k needs updating.

I'm not sure if I'm the only one, but I have a heck of a time finding rules in the block of which identifies which rules are included or not. It's usually because the list of rules in use are listed in alphabetic order based off of a short-hand of their titles.

Would it be better to list the rules in rule-number order? I always know which rule I'm looking to see if it's in use or not, but rarely the short-hand name of that rule.

By Matthew Potter (Neonpico) on Friday, February 24, 2012 - 09:23 pm: Edit

I thank all who helped with this question. Sorry to say, but it was me who was trying to launch two plasma after having 6 drones on the board. I had figured that since the Plasma were self-guided, they would swim out of the tubes without a control channel.

The question was raised in the game. We dickered about it a bit and Josh was nice enough to let me do it. I declined the chance to do 40 internals to a down shield for the same reason he offered to let me go ahead with it (sportsmanship). Instead I bolted one and saved the other for later as anti-overrun insurance.

By Jean Sexton (Jsexton) on Friday, March 09, 2012 - 02:18 pm: Edit

There's a person over on the FC Forum with a question about tournament rules. Would someone from here be able to pop over and help him?

http://www.starfleetgames.com/federation/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=4453

Thanks!

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, March 09, 2012 - 06:40 pm: Edit

>>There's a person over on the FC Forum with a question about tournament rules. Would someone from here be able to pop over and help him?>>

I'm trying to do just this (although at least Saaur got there already), but I can't register, as I can't find a "valid VIP code", which claims to be available on the FAQ page, but I can't find any reference to on the FAQ page.

By Jean Sexton (Jsexton) on Friday, March 09, 2012 - 11:40 pm: Edit

Peter, it is hidden here under VIP: http://www.starfleetgames.com/masterindex.shtml#V We also put in a link under the rules section and here: http://www.federationcommander.com/faqs.shtml

Thanks for trying to help us out!

We've seen the result of not having the VIP on Mongoose's forums -- they got hit by dozens of spam accounts per day.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, March 10, 2012 - 09:11 am: Edit

Ah, ok, there it is. See, at the top of the forum page that the question is on (i.e. the FC discussion forum), there is a link to a FAQ (which is the board FAQ, not the FC FAQ, apparently). That FAQ has no VIP code. Which is confusing :-)

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, March 10, 2012 - 01:22 pm: Edit

So now I just tried to register, and apparently I accidentally clicked the "I'm under 13 button", and now have to get that fixed before I can actually register. Gah.

By Jean Sexton (Jsexton) on Sunday, March 11, 2012 - 11:11 pm: Edit

Peter, I fiddled with your FC Forum registration. Please see if it works now and if it does, would you let me know?

Thanks,

Jean

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, March 12, 2012 - 07:37 am: Edit

Ok, cool. Thanks! I was having trouble getting the note from my mom :-)

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, March 12, 2012 - 04:26 pm: Edit

Thanks Jean--yeah, it works now, and I went and posted a verbose answer.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Saturday, March 17, 2012 - 12:50 am: Edit

Josh Driscol asked on February 23, 2012:

In a recent game we had a bit of a rules question come up. A WAX BBFF package had 6 drones on the map, and launched both F torps. It was my understanding that you had to control the plasma at the time of launch, but my opponent argued that he could immediately release control involuntarily.

ANSWER: The launch was illegal. In order to launch a plasma torpedo, you must have an available control channel on the impulse of launch. The WYN player would have needed to first drop control of two drones to launch the two plasma torpedoes.

[Note: The rules are not as clear on this as I would like, but SPP has ruled definitively that this is the case. The logic of (FD5.21), which states this explicitly for ATG and dogfight drones, also applies to plasma torpedoes.]

Now, he could have managed to get all eight seeking weapons on the board by doing something like this: Launch two plasma torpedoes and four drones one impulse. The following impulse, release the plasma torpedoes to their own tracking, and then launch two more drones. Or, with five drones on the board, launch a single plasma torpedo one impulse, and launch the other one the following impulse, after releasing the first one. But with six drones on the board, he cannot launch his plasma torpedoes.

By Troy Latta (Saaur) on Monday, March 19, 2012 - 10:52 am: Edit

To pick nits, Andy:
He cannot launch targeted plasma torpedoes under those conditions. He could launch them ballistically, but it would be obvious that's what they were and in a tournament there's no reason to do so.

By Kerry E Mullan (Nomad17) on Monday, March 19, 2012 - 10:57 am: Edit

Well as well a likely outcome would be:

Wax launches both Ftorps and WAX player chooses to drop tracking on 2 of the 6 board drones leaving 4 drones on the board and 2 Ftorps. Then at any later point he can allow the Ftorps to go to self guidance and he can launch 2 more drones from his racks as the tactical situation arises to do so.

By Troy Latta (Saaur) on Monday, March 19, 2012 - 03:17 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

WAX player chooses to drop tracking on 2 of the 6 board drones and then launches both Ftorps leaving 4 drones on the board and 2 Ftorps.

---

By Jon Taylor (Vendetta) on Monday, March 26, 2012 - 07:26 pm: Edit

Is there someplace where all the tournament rules changes have been compiled? As an example, I know there can no longer be a G1G1 Aux but can not find a reference to it. I think the Orion also had a change so that it can't have 2 P-G's. There may be other things not in T2000, is there anything else?