Kerry E Mullan asked on April 05, 2012:

Tractor question that is now officially driving me nuts as I may have been playing it incorrectly for too long (and hosing myself).

For tourney specific ruling if a ship tractors another, due to (G7.91) are there actually no restrictions? I.e., tourney ships are the same size class so the restrictions should be lifted due to (G7.91), but I have always played them as fully enforced.

Can I get a second on this interpretation?

ANSWER: All of the sanctioned tourney ships are the same size class, so per the exemption under (G7.91), there is no primary firing restriction.

Note that (G7.91) is moot in the tournament, anyway. You can always fire at or tractor the ship that is tractoring you, and even if it were a larger size class, (G7.91) does not apply to firing at, or using tractor beams on, other non-ship units. So in a tournament duel, the restrictions of (G7.91) will never come into play.

Of course, (G7.94) is fully enforced. If you are tractored, you can't launch non-seeking shuttles, and can only launch seekers at the ship that tractored you.

By Josh Driscol (Gfb) on Friday, April 06, 2012 - 03:45 am: Edit

In a game last night going over EA forms following the game I came across something that looked odd in the EA of a Hellbore.

At EA it was allocated 5 power, normally I see 3 for rolling and 6 for an overload or batts used to overload.

When we checked H7.64 it seemed clear that you could overload a weapon with not enough power to fire it as overload. The weapon would be depending on being finished with reserve power at some point during the turn. Otherwise couldnt fire as standard or overload.

I just have a few questions on how this could be used. I was under the impression that nearly every heavy weapon had to be charged, not charged or overloaded.

Question 1, are there any weapons other than the PPD which seems to have its own rules for reserve power, that cant use this partial overload.

Question 2, Can a Disruptor be partly armed with 1 point of power, not enough for the standard charge but it says in H.52 that you can use reserve power at the time of firing or not to finish a weapon to standard charge. How about 3 pts doing what the hellbore ship in my game did, but with a disruptor?

Question 3, in the case of a fusion beam thats charged already, it allocates 1 to hold and 3 overload energy, 4 pts total. Could it fire as overload, or would it depend on reserve power to bring it to the full suicide OL power or be unfirable in any mode?

Question 4 could a plasma ship allocate more than holding but less than the standard charged torpedo. For example allocate 3 to an S tobe on its 3rd turn of arming. Could it be either fired or finished for holding with reserve at any impulse in the turn?

By Matthew Potter (Neonpico) on Friday, April 06, 2012 - 01:19 pm: Edit

Just to clarify: The HB was allocated 5 points in EA. This is a partial overload (3 energy made it a std load, 2 of the needed 3 extra energy makes it a partial overload). A point of reserve power was allocated to it during the turn to make it a full-overload, and then it was fired.

By Josh Driscol (Gfb) on Friday, April 06, 2012 - 04:20 pm: Edit

Yes, sorry if I mistated what you allocated.

Im just trying to figure out if you can use this rule for other weapons, and partial chrging in EA of standards, something you didnt do.

For some weapons like the Plasma EPT its clear in the rules that the decision must be made at EA, but for disruptors and fusions I could see many uses for partial overloads or partial powering of standards.

By Matthew Potter (Neonpico) on Friday, April 06, 2012 - 04:31 pm: Edit

More than likely a partial anything would need to be ejected on the next End of Turn if not fired and the whole load would need to start over. I don't expect being able to hold a partially-loaded or partially-overloaded anything. Even if the rules let you hold a fully-loaded or fully-overloaded weapon.

The upside to partial loads is that you end up spending less energy during EA on your weapons. the downside is that you make up for it with spending reserve. You have alot more energy during EA than you do in reserve. And reserve power is needed to stay flexible (unplotted speed changes, overloading from reserve, unplotted HETs, etc)

By Josh Driscol (Gfb) on Friday, April 06, 2012 - 04:46 pm: Edit

Thats just the Hellbores inability to hold overloads.

Sure disruptors have to be disposed of by the end of the turn, but if you could allocate partial energy to a standard or 3 for a partial overload it would give you more options, and you wouldnt be limited to 2 OL Disr off batts.

And with plasma it would be great to be able to allocate more than rolling delay to let you finish more torps off reserve. Unlike Hellbores a plasma could be held, except the King Eagles R.

Then of course theres the exotic weapons PC and TR beams where it could be handy. I think the PC rules like photon rules handle partial overloads very well. It was just something i had never seen and worth asking if it can be used for disruptors and other weapons.

By David Zimdars (Zimdarsdavid) on Friday, April 06, 2012 - 06:09 pm: Edit

The correct term is "contingent" overload - h7.64. Contingent overloads may not be fired until arming is completed with reserve. If never completed, or if never on range, the weapon is ejected. It may not fire as a standard weapon. In the case of hellbores or fusion beams the 2 turn cycle would start, which is a much heavier opportunity cost than with disrupters.

By Matthew Potter (Neonpico) on Friday, April 06, 2012 - 08:36 pm: Edit

Fusions would need a turn to cool (taking two turns to finish a loading cycle) if they were ejected as an overload (or, presumably, a partial overload). but they don't need to cool if ejected as a standard-load (or as a partial-standard-load).

By Josh Driscol (Gfb) on Friday, April 06, 2012 - 08:55 pm: Edit

Why couldnt they be finished as standard with reserve then held the following turn, standard fusions dont have to be fired.

By Paul Scott (The_Rock) on Friday, April 06, 2012 - 09:27 pm: Edit

because once you put more energy into a weapon than the cost of a standard load it is now an overload. If it is an overload that can be held (photon) or a capacitor (PC) then you are fine, but then H7.64 does not really apply then anyway.

By George Duffy (Sentinal) on Friday, April 06, 2012 - 10:43 pm: Edit

Just to clarify:

You can allocate a partial standard load during EA for a fusion beam, use reserve power before the end of the turn to complete it as a standard load, then allocate energy next turn to hold the charge (provided that the ship has the "fusion holding" refit to do so).

The moment you add any additional energy (whether by EA or reserve) that will count toward an overload weapon (even a partial overload), or fail to complete the the standard load of energy to allow the charge to be held, then that charge must be discharged by the end of the turn.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Saturday, April 07, 2012 - 01:26 am: Edit

Josh Driscol asked on April 06, 2012:

In a game last night going over EA forms following the game I came across something that looked odd in the EA of a Hellbore.

At EA it was allocated 5 power, normally I see 3 for rolling and 6 for an overload or batteries used to overload.

When we checked (H7.64) it seemed clear that you could overload a weapon with not enough power to fire it as overload. The weapon would be depending on being finished with reserve power at some point during the turn. Otherwise it couldn't fire as standard or overload. I just have a few questions on how this could be used. I was under the impression that nearly every heavy weapon had to be charged, not charged or overloaded.

Question 1, are there any weapons other than the PPD which seems to have its own rules for reserve power, that can't use this partial overload.

ANSWER: If you partially allocate overload energy to a weapon, it is irrevocably committed to being an overload, and cannot fire (as a standard or an overload) unless you allocate the remaining energy from reserve power. Any weapon that can't use (H7.6) will say so in its rules. Note, however, doing this is usually not a good idea.


Question 2, Can a Disruptor be partly armed with 1 point of power, not enough for the standard charge but it says in (H7.52) that you can use reserve power at the time of firing or not to finish a weapon to standard charge. How about 3 points doing what the hellbore ship in my game did, but with a disruptor?

ANSWER: Weapons are generally allowed to use contingent allocation under (H7.61). You could allocate one point of power to a disruptor, but would need to allocate the remaining point from reserve in order to fire it. Otherwise, the single point of energy would be discharged at the end of the turn.


Question 3, in the case of a fusion beam that's charged already, it allocates 1 to hold and 3 overload energy, 4 points total. Could it fire as overload, or would it depend on reserve power to bring it to the full suicide overload power or be unfirable in any mode?

ANSWER: Fusion beams have a special rule in regards to suicide overloads; see (E7.442). If you allocate part of the energy for a suicide overload (i.e., more than the normal overload energy but less than the full suicide overload energy), the weapon can be fired as a regular overload, but this will still result in the consequences of (E7.421). (In fact, the weapon will be destroyed and cause an addition point of internal damage whether or not you fire it in this case.)


Question 4, could a plasma ship allocate more than holding but less than the standard charged torpedo. For example allocate 3 to an S tube on its 3rd turn of arming. Could it be either fired or finished for holding with reserve at any impulse in the turn?

ANSWER: If you apply 2+2+3 energy to a plasma-S launcher, you will get a plasma-G. See (FP1.96); this is a fairly common tactic. You could launch it as a plasma-S if you apply an extra point of reserve power.

My reading of (FP1.22) is that it would NOT be legal to allocate, say, 2.5 energy to the torpedo on the third turn of arming. Your choices for the third turn of arming are to allocate 2 energy and use (FP1.221), rolling delay, or allocate 3, 4, 6 or 8 energy to complete it as a plasma-G, plasma-S, EPT or shotgun plasma-G, or EPT or shotgun plasma-S, respectively. Anything else results in the plasma being ejected.

By Josh Driscol (Gfb) on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 06:15 am: Edit

Questions on Weasels and D6.632 GOING PASSIVE

In a recent game I was playing the Fed, closing in on a stopped Gorn TCC. The gorn weaseled 3 times in the final turn, and we were hoping to get a few rules clarified.

I have always thought that you couldnt use ship systems that require active FC on the impulse you weasel.

We were at range 2, Gorn had Fire Control in active mode, Launched a plasma F in stage 6B6, then weaseled the same impulse in stage 6B8.

But earlier back in Febuary-March I had a question on involuntary release of SGSW, specifically plasma on the impulse of launch.

Ill repeat the response I got to the question in Febuary, Andy Vancil responded
-------------------------------------------------
Josh Driscol asked on February 23, 2012:

In a recent game we had a bit of a rules question come up. A WAX BBFF package had 6 drones on the map, and launched both F torps. It was my understanding that you had to control the plasma at the time of launch, but my opponent argued that he could immediately release control involuntarily.

"ANSWER: The launch was illegal. In order to launch a plasma torpedo, you must have an available control channel on the impulse of launch. The WYN player would have needed to first drop control of two drones to launch the two plasma torpedoes. "

"[Note: The rules are not as clear on this as I would like, but SPP has ruled definitively that this is the case. The logic of (FD5.21), which states this explicitly for ATG and dogfight drones, also applies to plasma torpedoes.] "
----------------------------------------------

In the response above it says on the impulse of launch the plasma must have a control channel.

To clarify, I took this to mean that from segment 6B6 at the point of launch to the following impulse at the same stage 6B6. Is that what was meant by the first impulse after launch?

"(D6.632) GOING PASSIVE: A ship can switch its fire control system to passive (or inactive) mode immediately. This can be done during
the lock-on step of any impulse. The player must announce this fact. This change will be required by certain actions (e.g., cloak activation,WW Launch)"

"(F3.421) A seeking weapon capable of self-guiding is assumed to be under the control of a guiding unit until control over it has been
released."

"F3.531) Voluntary transfer of control takes place during the Seeking Weapons Stage of the Impulse Activity Segment. It cannot take place
on the impulse in which the seeking weapon itself was launched because of the order of procedures in the Sequence of Play, so a self-guiding seeking weapon would use a control channel during its first impulse.

My opponent argued that declaring going passive is tipping your hand that your going to weasel, and of course he's right about that.

When I asked about involuntary transfers of control on the impulse of launch back in Febuary the response was you cant involuntarlily release plasma after launching if you dont have control channels to accept them.

The way I read these 3 rules you could launch a plasma on passive the impulse you weasel, because you would have announced your going passive in sensor lock on stage, and the plasma is not launched in its default setting of being under ship control the impulse of launch like it says in D19.221.

I did find, "D6.63 Involuntary mode changes to passive mode (cloak, WW) are made at the instant of the action requiring the mode change."

I guess I dont understand how the involuntary release of plasmas during the impulse of launch by a ship with active FC can be illegal, while another involuntary release due to an involuntary mode change in fire control is legal.

Like the case of the WAX BBFF with 6 on map drones, who launches 2 plasma F's exceeding his control limits because he knows involuntary release can get them past that little clause that plasmas must be controlled on the impulse of luanch if launched on active fire control.

Launching the weasel may be the only logical choice for the captain but to call it involuntary seems a stretch. I guess what its saying is that both weaseling and cloaking instantly stop all active fire control activity.

I think by launching he's accepting that for the next impulse he needs to be able to control that seeker till 6B6.1 of the next impulse or lose the seeking weapons.

That puts a cost on tossing out plasmas and weasels in the same impulse because you would have no weasel protection from the time of the plasma launch to the next voluntary release stage. I think its clear from the rules that both drones and plasma need control channels on the impulse of launch at point blank range where passive launch isnt possible and the only drones capable of self guidance in the tournament are the Klingons dogfights.

Its not clear to me what ship systems are legal to use on the impulse you weasel.

Could you tractor a ship or drones, then launch a plasma then weasel and let the drones go the same impulse you tractored?

Could you drop shields and do hit and run raids in the same impulse you launch a weasel?

For ships with multiple shuttle bays and or launch tubes could manned shuttles and fighters be launched in the same launch segment as a weasel. What about seeking shuttles launched with a weasel that you know will go inert immediatly, say to draw enemy fire away from your ship?

J3.132 says, "Previously fired seeking weapons which can obtain (or have) their own guidance and lock-ons do not require the ship to maintain a lock-on and can continue to function without
voiding the WW."

Its not clear to me what is meant by "Previously" in this rule, is that meant to be any stage in the current impulse prior to shuttle launch or is it seekers fired on a previous impulses?

I look forward to hearing how these tricky situation are supposed to be handled. Thanks to Andy and everyone for your many helpful responses.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 03:48 pm: Edit

I'm condensing this down quite a bit, so please let me know if I've missed any of your questions or misrepresented them...

Josh Driscol asked on May 06, 2012:

I have always thought that you couldn't use ship systems that require active fire control on the impulse you weasel. Could you tractor a ship or drones, then launch a plasma then weasel and let the drones go the same impulse you tractored?

ANSWER: Yes. It comes down to sequence of play. Tractor beam use and drone launch come before shuttle launch.

Now, if your fire control is not active (because you had previously launched another Wild Weasel, for example), you would, of course, not be able to use tractor beams, and would only be able to launch a plasma torpedo under the provisions of (D19.221).

But there is no requirement to drop your fire control in advance of launching a Wild Weasel. AFC is deactivated automatically at the instant the WW is launched. This creates an overriding condition on the normal Sequence of Play, so your tractor beams would be dropped at that point, and any seeking weapons in flight would be released, and would either become inert if no other unit can assume control, or assume their own guidance, if so capable. Note that if you had a ship tractored, then launched a Wild Weasel, it could launch its own Wild Weasel (but not other shuttles) that impulse in response to your launch, per (G7.333).


Follow-up Question: Could you drop shields and do hit and run raids in the same impulse you launch a weasel?

ANSWER: Yes, the Marine Activity Stage is prior to the Shuttle & PF Function Stage.


Follow-up Question: For ships with multiple shuttle bays and/or launch tubes, could manned shuttles and fighters be launched in the same launch segment as a weasel? What about seeking shuttles launched with a weasel that you know will go inert immediately, say to draw enemy fire away from your ship?

ANSWER: You could launch manned shuttles; there is no restriction under (J3.13) or (J3.4). (Note that your opponent would know which shuttle was the weasel, however.) You could not launch a seeking shuttle because your fire control is not active. You can't launch a suicide shuttle under passive fire control because (J19.221) only applies to self-guiding seeking weapons. Even if you could, per (J19.21), it would void your weasel.

By Matthew Potter (Neonpico) on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 04:23 pm: Edit

Andy means to say (D19.21) Passive Fire Control etc..

By David Zimdars (Zimdarsdavid) on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 04:25 pm: Edit

So (G7.333) is a specific exception to the principle of secret and simultaneous? In that it specifically allows a me-to activity?

By Brendan Lally (Brendan_Lally) on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 09:46 pm: Edit

It also seems as though the Control channel issue is at cross purposes when it comes to plasma launch as well.

If i have 6 drones in flight in my modified AUX Box can I launch 2 F-torps from a range greater than five (like a passive launch) with out having control channels? As I read it I don't have active control channels under weasel protection , yet I can launch at R>4.

By Josh Driscol (Gfb) on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 11:07 pm: Edit

Is it enough to have the control channel for the plasma up to the shuttle launch step where the weasel is launched? Or do you need to maintain control of the plasma into the next impulse?

F3.32 says that if at any point the ship cant control the seeking weapons or release them they will go inert. And F3.531 says that, ". . . so a
self-guiding seeking weapon would use a control channel during its first impulse."

Plasmas as self guiding seeking weapons would need a control channel the first impulse, and F3.32 says that loss of qualifications can happen at any point in the impulse.

Weaseling is loss of qualifications for maintaining control, and the shuttle launch step would have to be the point the weapons get released to self guidance or go inert.

So what happens to the Gorns F torp in our example where on the impulse of launch the Gorn weasels? Is he allowed to do an involuntary release because when he fired the plasma he did have a lock on and a control channel?

By Josh Driscol (Gfb) on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 11:58 pm: Edit

Im not sure why it was so confusing, the chuck and duck has now been added to my list of nasty tricks.

So consider my questions answered.

Thanks

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Monday, May 07, 2012 - 12:43 am: Edit

Brendan Lally asked on May 06, 2012:

If I have 6 drones in flight in my modified AUX Box can I launch 2 F-torps from a range greater than five (like a passive launch) with out having control channels?

ANSWER: No, by (D19.224).

By David Zimdars (Zimdarsdavid) on Monday, May 07, 2012 - 05:14 am: Edit

Josh, I have always thought you could launch a plasma, either by active or passive (depending on your fire control status on that impulse) on the same impulse you also launch a wild weasel. If the WW is launched, it creates an involuntary release point for those weapons under active guidance. A WW also drops your own tractors, even those you attached the same impulse.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, May 07, 2012 - 12:49 pm: Edit

David wrote:
>>I have always thought you could launch a plasma, either by active or passive (depending on your fire control status on that impulse) on the same impulse you also launch a wild weasel.>>

You can. The issue at hand was that Josh was (as far as I can tell) thinking that you had to voluntarily drop AFC during the voluntary drop of AFC step in IA (which is before plasma launch) to launch a weasel. But you don't, as when you launch a weasel, you involuntarily drop AFC in the same step (which is after plasma launch). Which was, apparently, the point of confusion.

By Matthew Potter (Neonpico) on Monday, May 07, 2012 - 01:08 pm: Edit

It's possible the "Gorn Nasty Trick" was to drop AFC voluntarily, then launch the plasmas passively, then launch the weasel. It's not something the Aux-Box is gonna do with 6 drones on the board, though.

By Josh Driscol (Gfb) on Monday, May 07, 2012 - 01:55 pm: Edit

No he didnt do that, but he did launch on passive earlier at r5 with a weasel out, voided it nicely.

What he did was raise FC while my Fed TCC closed in at speed 4 under its own weasel protection, and when I ran out of weasels and explosion period he shot off an F but not directly at me it circled around my no 1 to find the down shield. But all that was totally legal, I was in FA of the torps when he launched and he's not required to het them so they just circled around for the kill. The impulse he launched was the impulse I reached range 1, and I thought I would get a decent photon shot finally but with the 2 shift they both whiffed badly 5, 5 was the roll and it was game over.

I was just confused on plasmas ability to be involuntarily released the first impulse of launch, the rules for this are spread from D6, to D19 to F3, and J3. But im glad I was so confused without this discussion I never would have learned about G7.333. Which wasnt an issue in our game, but who knew you could me too launch weasels when the tractor goes away.

When I say Gorn Nasty Trick what I really meant was great game ending play on TA's part. Its always memorable for me when I think Im in control of the situation and in just a few impulses im reduced to a weaponless hulk.

It was a good game and the confusion for me on the involuntary release issue is cleared up, now I know a little more of whats possible.

By Jonathan Biggar (Jonb) on Monday, May 07, 2012 - 02:31 pm: Edit

Any player can get caught by a trick like that once. Above average players don't get caught twice.