I know I've brought this up, but it bears repeating. If the major concern with photons is EW, just make it a 2 dice weapon, and keep the hit numbers about the same (e.g., 6 instead of 1-3). That should solve it nicely, with no breaking of the game.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 09:57 pm: Edit

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Can we declare that ECM drones are ineffective against X2 sensors?

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I know I've brought this up, but it bears repeating. If the major concern with photons is EW, just make it a 2 dice weapon, and keep the hit numbers about the same (e.g., 6 instead of 1-3). That should solve it nicely, with no breaking of the game.

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OK, we keep the prox as it is. Racial flavor.

Very vulnerable to EW
a lot of power to arm
miss quite often
very sweet when most hit.

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By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 10:33 pm: Edit

Not completely as it is, but keep the changes modest. Range 10 overloads, first turn up from 12 to 16, but not 2 dice or FH arcs. It's easier to roll 4 dice and see the hits.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 11:04 pm: Edit

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Such a change to the way Photons resolve will only serve to increase the damage spike at R4....do we want fussion beams or Photons.

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By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 11:54 pm: Edit

Proxi Overloads are the best way to deal with EW.

The players already know how to do both so combining them won't be that difficult to learn.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 11:59 pm: Edit

Actually being able to swap from Standard to Proxies with a 4 Impulse delay rather than a MUST BE DONE IN EA, would be a handy effect to have built in aswell.

It's not a must for Proxi-Overloads ( and I'm not putting it forward to make Proxi Overloads better) but rather in order to make Photons a better weapon.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 12:00 am: Edit

Prox overloads? At what range? 9-10? 9+?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 12:57 am: Edit

That depends on the Overload Max range if, R10 then 5-8 & 9-10, If R8 then just 5-8.

5-8 is where Prox overloads would have been ( I don't have stellar shadows but I thought it was in there as a Fed Fantasy Weapon ).
It's basically to offset UIM on the Disruptor, but it'll do well against ECM drone + high EW, enviroments.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 01:15 pm: Edit

Here's an alternate ides on an entirely different track.

We've touched on the problem before: The sheer power cost of photons. Right behind their at-time bad hit chances.

Suppose we did this: No changes to the X1 photon. None.

Except this: Each point of arming energy produces 3 points of damage, istead of 2. that's give you 12-point standards, 24 point overloads, and with the increase in power from X1->X2, the Feds would have more power to keep EW parity.

And for the record, Jeff is partly right. In X1, if you fast-load an overload photon, it's use it or lose it time.

A fast-loaded standard can be held over for the next turn. You can fastload up to the full 16-point overloads if you have the energy available.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 01:49 pm: Edit

I thinkthat produces much too big of a photon crunch. Even the B-10 isn't going to handle that and the X2 ships wont have as big of shields and cirtainly wont have that kind of internals.

Even an 18 point OL is a lot but wouldn't so much break the game. I think, 24 point OLs will.

Even though it's a lot of energy the X2 ships will have it for the time needed (one turn) to wipe out any ship. There would be a bit of recovery after but since the enemy is dead...

What if we allowed 10 point standards and 18 point OLs. That's pretty big. The 10 point standard is the bigger in that proximities become 5 points. Five points out to 30 (or 40) is really big. An X2 Fed could make an enemy ship tap out it's entire reserve on turn one.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 04:19 pm: Edit

I'm in the 10/5/16 camp. But you probably knew that.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 05:13 pm: Edit

I would be just fine with keeping the max at 16. A ten point standard would be interesting. So arm as 2+3 or 3+2.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 09:15 pm: Edit

Is anyone will to be in the 10/5/20 camp!?!

We could solve some of the EW problems by keeping X1 photons and then just upping the numbers that a cruiser carries to 6.
It'ld still make narrow volleys hell but there's very little we can do about that.


Personnaly;
•12 Fastload standards.
•12 point standards.
•6 poiont proxies.
•Overload Proxies.
•20 Point Overloads.
•4 Impulse switch from Proxi to non-Proxi and back again.
•R8 as the max overload range in order to give X1s and GWs a break.
•Acheived through a 3:1 ratio is playtesting indicats it's needed.


So put me in the 12/6/20 boat.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 09:34 pm: Edit

Would that be a 10 point standard and a 20 point overload?

If we give too many improvements, we won't be able to put them on the same board with an X0 ship.

Right now in X1 we have:

Max OL in one turn	12 damage
Max OL in two turns	16 damage
Max standard	8 damage
Max Prox	4 damage
Damage to Energy - OL	2:1
Damage to Energy - Std	2:1
Damage to Energy - Prox	1:1
Overload range	8
Prox range	9+
no OL with a prox fuse
Accuracy tables
Any others I left out?

If we change 1-3 of these, we might be in business. If we improve 5-6, we have a game-breaking super-torpedo.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 10:06 pm: Edit

Agreed. I personally think improving the accuracy is a better move than increasing the damage. The photon is already damaging enough...it's just hard to hit with. Adding more isn't necessary, IMHO, since you can now fire them every turn, effectively doubling your torpedo strength. A modest accuracy increase, with no change in damage is my preferred choice. If we DO increase the damage, then leave the accuracy alone. One is workable...both are not.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 01:16 am: Edit

Actually a X1 can fastload for 16.

We're not going to roll that back.

Increasing the damage of the photon seems a given. We're giving damage boosts to other weapons and the tradeoff for the photon has always been power for accuracy. If we increase the power of others, the photon loses that extreme-crunch edge. With the SIF, you can go 24 if the hit probs don't change.

If you hit a XCC with all 4 photons, you will trash it, but if you hit a CB,CC, CA with all four normal photons you'll trash IT too.

The way I look at it, every non-power improvement you make the the photon dials back its' max damage from a max of 24. I would NEVER want to go higher than 24.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 01:37 am: Edit

I believe the highest an X1 photon can do in a single turn is a 10 point overload. This was to balance the fact that the standard photon cannot fire at range 0-1.

So, in X2, and improvement to 16 pointer fast- loads seems enough. Give the ship enough power to use them, and it won't matter if the to-hit is better.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 01:58 am: Edit

CFant.

We were both wrong. In the CL 23 errata, (XE4.5) limits Photons to 12 point overload in a single turn.

So we're back where we were. A fastload-12 is where we are with X1.

But I agree with your conclusion. A 16-point fastload is plenty.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 02:54 am: Edit

6UIM OVERLOADED DISRUPTORS @ R8 is an expected 30 points of damage...every turn.

4 FASTLOADED 16 Point warheads @ R8 is an expected average damage of 32 points every turn.

Upping the Fastloads to 16 is okay from an output point of veiw ( `though not throughput; 32 power instead of 24 ) so long as the Disruptors don't get improved at all.

Personnaly I see a few improvements as being nessessary ( read Overload Proxies ) including but not limited to an increase in the output of photons.
If a ship can block, say 50 points of damage with sheilds and SSReo with 4 five point BTYYs ( or 5 four BTTYs ) plus Caps-top-SSReo, you can stop ( say 12 of your 36 points in the caps are held for fire ) some 94 points of damage, before internals are generated.
Compair that with an R8 Fed CA against a Fed CA and the 30 sheilds and 4 BTTY will stop 34 points of damage and will generate at R8 32 points of damage with her Photons.
Logically to have the same performance we would need to up the Photons to be doing 45 points of damage each ( or have 3 times as many ).
All the talk that 96 points of damage ( 4 torps with 24 point warheads ) is complete...what's the word...hogwash!
GW & MY ships will have far more dynamic combat offensive weapons than X2s so we can aford to have a slight increase in firepower.
20 and 24 point warheads will not kill the game.
Even 24 point Proxi Overloads at R8 are only going to inflict an expected 40 points of damage (Less effective than the simple 24 point overloads for 48 points of damage ) and that's supposedly beyond the expectations of everyone on the board barr me.

The Photon I sujest is 12 point Fastload and 24 Point Full load although we may not have the power to arm them.
That way the racial Flavour of the Fed and her two-turn arming cycle is restored.
Couple this with a more flexible Prox and a Proxi Overload and you should just reach the mark of being equal to the improvements that will undoubtedly be granted to the disruptor.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 03:38 am: Edit

well, ya gotta have an improvement over the X1. So, 16 point fast load, and then improve proxy damage to 6 rather than 4.

How about that?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 05:44 am: Edit

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well, ya gotta have an improvement over the X1. So, 16 point fast load, and then improve proxy damage to 6 rather than 4.

How about that?

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By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 09:21 am: Edit

I don't think so. You can't take a step back in ability when you design a new type of ship and new type of weapon.

That would be like arming a modern CVN with 5 lb. guns.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 09:54 am: Edit

Okay, how about this. Leave the number of photons the same, i.e., four on a cruiser. Bump the damage base from 8 to 10, with a max of 15 point, fast load overloads. However, you can have the option of 20 point 2=turn overloads if you want them. Use 1X hit charts. That gives a modest damage incrase overall, a better fast-load damage maximum than 1X, but still retains the photon "flavor" of needing 2 turns to fully overload it.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 11:54 am: Edit

Upping the Prox damage without upping the energy to arm wont work, IMO. If you up the standard the the prox goes up with it. That's a big thing. The ability to reach out from LONG range and hit with that kind of damage is big. Nothing else can come close to that sort of output at long range.

The photon has to work for all things. If we put out a photon that fights other X2 ships fine that one thing. But consider what a 24 point OL with 12 standard is going to do to bases, planets, and ships of past generations. We can design X2 to handle it. We can't redesign the others. (Except bases but they are still stationary objects and the Photon has an advantage against those.)

With but one minor nit I do like Mike's above proposal. That nit is the 15 point OL. 15 requires the use of fractional accounting. Yuk (if it can be avoided). Did you mean 16. THat makes more sense.

So:
Standard=10
Max Fast Load=16 (all fast loads=no hold)
Max OL (2 turn)=20 (total 10 warp energy)
Note: with the 20 point OL a rule should be added the restricts the maximum one turn power INput to 6 energy. This is so that on an off turn we don't see players putting in 8 power the racing in with only 2 in each photon ready to fire 20 point OLs. You should have to at least put 4 power on the second turn. This won't hurt the Feds. They can handle four but only having to put 2 in on the second turn makes them just too dangerous (even for another X2 let alone a GW or a base).


24 point OLs give the Fed a crunch power that will defeat any GW or X1 on the attack turn. How can that not break the game (given SVCs guide lines).

How about it. It's really just adding a bit of detail to Mike Rapers proposal.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 04:30 pm: Edit

Loren,

24-point overloads will devestate one ship, true, but the damage is equivalent to what's dealt by a Fed DN and DN's do not break the game.

SVC's guideline was that equal BPVs of X2,X1,GW could fight as equals, not that X2 not be able to fry a hull with one shot.

If we can give a 24-pt OL photon ship a BPV that plays nice with X1 and GW and that BPV is not excessive, we're good.