Also, for a GW ship to be able to catch an X2 ship, while throwing up 6 ECCM, will be difficult.

How about max 10 EW, but no more than 8 into either ECM or ECCM.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 02:22 am: Edit

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Quote:

GW ship puts up 6 ECCM - fights through a 2-shift
GW ship puts up 2 ECCM - still a 2-shift.

That 4 points of power can be put to better uses, like speed.

And if the points are even, that means the GW ships will be fighting 2-on-1 or 3-on-1. Somebody's got to get into range to take the shot.

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Quote:

Also, for a GW ship to be able to catch an X2 ship, while throwing up 6 ECCM, will be difficult.

How about max 10 EW, but no more than 8 into either ECM or ECCM.

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By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 09:12 am: Edit

Allow EW to have no limit, it has a rapidly diminishing return. Limit the available power and most of our problems go away. X2 power should be close to X1 power.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 09:33 pm: Edit

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Allow EW to have no limit, it has a rapidly diminishing return. Limit the available power and most of our problems go away. X2 power should be close to X1 power.

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By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 09:50 pm: Edit

For once, I agree with MJC.

(Hey, that kinda rhymes...)

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 11:14 pm: Edit

D6? An X1 ship can generate 8 points of ECM. To gain a two shift an X2 would need to generate 12 points. A three shift is only 17 ECM. If you've got yourself up the creak and looking at a nasty hack&slash then putting up 17 ECM might make sense. In just about every other circumstance I'd rather use the power for something useful.

Take an X2 light cruiser. It should have 40 power or less. Its not going to be easy to spare 17 of that on EW. If you do then you are either not moving or not firing back so the playing field is still level.

But you want to talk about a D6. Since we are not sure what a D6(XP) looks like exactly I'll just assume we are referring to the good old D6K for 130 BPV. I'll be generous and say its trying to defend itself from a FF(X2) at range 8. The D6K has 37 power. The FF(X2) would have about 20 (the Fed FFX(X1) has 20 power and cost 112 leaving only 18 BPV difference between X1 and X2 which will be easy to account for in its non-weapon systems). Of the 20 power you are using 4 to hold torps, 2.5 for HK, 9.33 for movement, 1 special shuttle; this leaves 3 power for EW. If that same FF is actually arming weapons or phasers or bats then it would have 0 EW and be moving considerably slower. In an even BPV duel an X0 ship can match the 'unlimited' EW an X2 ship could generate.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 11:40 pm: Edit

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Quote:

If you've got yourself up the creak and looking at a nasty hack&slash then putting up 17 ECM might make sense. In just about every other circumstance I'd rather use the power for something useful.

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But you want to talk about a D6.

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By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 01:04 am: Edit

First, a D6 is way too old to get any kind of X-tech installed on it.

Second, why is the 2X FF going to have the same amount of power as a 1X FF?

I would think it would have 20 warp, 4 Impulse, 2 AWR.

Tos, unlimited EW is a very bad idea. Unlimited anything is a very bad idea.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 09:24 am: Edit

I think you are all overstating the problem.

"why is the 2X FF going to have the same amount of power as a 1X FF?"
For the purpose of comparison vs. a D6K at 130 BPV I chose a ship that would have similar BPV. If the FF(2X) had more power and more weapons and more abilities and more batteries then the FF(1X) then the BPV would have been closer to 180 and no longer a valid comparison to a D6K.

If you are in the camp that X2 is a significant step above X1 then the only thing a D6K could engage would be a police ship; I find that preposterous and bad for the game. And a police ship would have even less power to use for EW.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 11:11 am: Edit

But the D6 is like the Fed CL. Getting on in years. An likely to be scrapped after the GW is over.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 12:09 pm: Edit

I would think a 2X FF (smallest thing next to a police ship) would be able to handily whip a D6K half the time. IIRC, a maxed-out D6 (K, Y175, B and UIM refits) is about 135. A 1X Fed FFX is 112. A 2X FF ought to be pretty darned close to a D6K in BPV...say 130-150 at the most. That's a guess, of course, but it feels right. I'm not sure that having unlimited EW for 2X ships is a totally bad idea that should be immediately written off, though. It depends on how much disposable power said 2X ships will have, and what improvements are made to their weapon suite.

If, for example, a 2X Fed CA has photons that hit no better than the currently do, and a power supply of 40 to 50 warp, unlimited EW might not be too bad. Now, if that same ship had more accurate photons and 50 warp, then unlimited EW would be bad. I think it's worth keeping in mind as a possiblity, though I do think in the end that I'd prefer better weapons to unlimited EW.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 02:06 pm: Edit

Mike,

Unlimited EW might NOT be bad, but it might. We would have to assume that X1 and GW ships engaging X2 ships would do so at a minimum of a -1 shift against them.

At least for those players who use EW.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 02:30 pm: Edit

I agree. I just don't think it should be totally written off at this point, that's all. It probably won't work, but you never know.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 02:32 pm: Edit

We are in Red definite red-flag territory and should keep that in mind.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 09:17 pm: Edit

TOS:

Okay, you win.

If we just allow all X2 ships to be exactly like X1 ships but with unlimited EW then we have ships that are seriously "a class above" X1s and GWs without going to all the bother of inventing new rules, tables, SSDs and such.


Simply IT WON'T BE FUN for the handful of people who play without or a limited form of; the EW rules.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 09:22 pm: Edit

I'll agree to the red flag. It certainly has the potential to be a problem, depending on disposable power. I'm happy to table the idea until we know what disposable power is.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 09:26 pm: Edit

If ships get unlimited EW then bases would. Good luck hitting a base from anywhere but point blank.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 09:28 pm: Edit

Cross posted with MJC.

Acknowledged, players in X1/X2 that do not use EW rules will have a different experience.

Look, I don't care right now what the final decision on EW is. My preference is to let X2 be 8. As there seems little difference between 10 and 100 it makes an interesting, but limited twist. Its just an idea to be considered once we get to that point.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 09:30 pm: Edit

Loren: I consider that a good thing, though plasmas would still remain effective weapons.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 09:53 pm: Edit

You could, jsut for grins, make the max EW of a X2 ship 10, which is dropped to 6 with the first sensor hit.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 10:13 pm: Edit

How 'bout just making it 2 times your current sensor rating? Max of 12? Or would that be too much?

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 10:42 pm: Edit

That's the problem. 12 is a 2 shift over X1/X0. There is little practical difference between 12 and infinite.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 11:15 pm: Edit

Agree Tos. 8 is good, being lower than 10. 10, being higher than 8, is acceptable. 12 is right out.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 01:37 am: Edit

heheh............

The Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch ......I do declare.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 12:18 am: Edit

Another thought bouncing around, but I don't know which thread it fits in.

X2 should not be about designing gizmos that solve tactical problems for the players.
It should be about ships that are still fun and challenging to play.

For example,

• All 360 degree weapons
• Ships with heavy weapons covering all the arcs, so that maneuvering becomes secondary
• Phasers that do so much damage outside range 8 that all you have to do is approach, blast, game over.
• Heavy weapons that hit in the 1-6 bracket outside range 4. Getting in close is a problem in itself. Getting autohits from a ship further away means you got drones/plasma through the defences