I dont think the older versions of the client are even working Sheap, your forced to use the new version.

The idea that people use SFBOL SSD's to play tabletop SFB to me seems insane. Does anyone really think that all you need to play the is the ship outline and boxes. Even if you copied the weapons charts you would still be missing the rules to use those ships.

And I totally agree that its never good policy to only have one person who's capable of making the key piece that makes the game work. Aaron was without a doubt fast at what he does, but there should be others able to make the ship files.

Im with SVC on activation codes, but there are many ways you could use them. What none of us want is to have to prove that we have each and every stinking module.

I too would like to know whats different about this new format of ship definition, which ship definition tool to use to make them and when we may see a better tutorial on that process.

It would be perfect if there was a way to import the old into the new format, but I really dont understand what the need is, there is no more library to download. Why wasnt that change enough?

By Shawn Hantke (Shantke) on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 02:02 pm: Edit

Aaron quit the SFU.

Paul Franz was going to post an example of the new format SFB Online SSD but hasn't yet. He was also going to make some how to videos for his new volunteers but not sure if they have been made yet.

Even though the library doesn't download any more you could still get the SSDs one by one from the client, so the agreed ADB solution was to have the SFB Online SSDs be different. If I understand correctly.

By Paul Scott (The_Rock) on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 02:16 pm: Edit

The whole thing is very frustrating. It is killing FCOL, since we can't get any new ships added and the library there is much, much smaller than the SFB library (whole empires are missing in some cases).

I have been willing to make FCOL ships for almost a year now, but have been unable to get the starting graphics and have been told that using graphics from things like communique is not permitted.

I will not pretend to understand the policy decisions going on that have put a road block up for new material for almost (over?) a year now.

I do know that I would have no interest in using what I understand (from an old talk shoe, iirc) to be the new format. But I have never seen the actual proposed format, so maybe my imagination of it is way off or maybe it has changed since first described. I am looking forward to seeing a new format sample SSD and don't understand why we can't at least see a non-functioning mock up.

/shrug

By Josh Driscol (Gfb) on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 02:30 pm: Edit

How is the new format SSD different, obviously to keep ADB happy you wouldnt be able to download them 1 by 1, is the new SSD tool built into the client already?

Is it possible for the old format and new to work at the same time. SFBOL has been around for many years now and converting the existing SSD's will take a very long time. I was just thinking if new products SSD's were in the new format they at least would be safe from download.

Im sure in the grand scheme of things we SFBOL only players are a small group of the communiy, I just wish the powers that be would understand that SFBOL has a positive impact on there sales.

I cant count how many times an old SFB'er has logged into the client in demo mode and liked the interface enough to want to get back into the game after 10 to 20 years away. Im often asked what do you need to get back into the game and I send them to the ADB shopping cart or e23 with a nice long list of products to buy.

I sure hope that Paul is willing to accept all the help with the conversion project that he can get, I know Matt and I alone could put a serious dent in the project if someone can just teach us how.

It seems like this would be a great topic for SFU oncall, I know I would tune in to that broadcast.

By Josh Driscol (Gfb) on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 02:45 pm: Edit

I havent heard anything about this proposed new format SSD, what were the issues with whats been proposed?

I think the lack of ship variety could be what seems to be making the FCOL player base grow so slowly.

We are in many ways lucky to have all the SFB SSD's that we do, but im not sure the powers that be know that quite a few of them are still works in progress.

The Iridani for instance havent got there fighters or even shuttles and POT/POS markers finished. Now we have an Iridani player in the Canis Minor campaign I hope the powers that be at least let somebody add the POT/POS counters and make what is already there functional to play online. We can make it work as is, I have found that SFBOL players are some of the most resourceful when it comes to finding work arounds for client issues.

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 03:57 pm: Edit

I volunteered for this many months ago, and it took Paul forever to get back with me, but he did. He sent me some Before and After SSDs, but with no instructions whatsoever. I asked for clarification, and never got a response back.

The issue is NOT a lack of volunteers.

By Josh Driscol (Gfb) on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 04:41 pm: Edit

Do you know how many volunteers there were back when you were looking to work on this project?

Even with dozens of volunteers we would each have hundreds of ships and fighters to convert.

Im sure if we keep bringing it up to Paul that we will get a response eventually.

I suggest that anyone who has already volunteered or wants to volunteer on the SSD conversion project come to this weeks talkshoe and we can ask about it there.

Nobody wants to be the first wheel to start squeeking, but its true what they say only the squeeky wheels get any grease at all. This conversion project is key to the future growth of SFBOL and FCOL.

I have seen the powers that be say that we online players are just a small group of the SFU community, and we may be only a small part of there customer base. But we are a part of that customer base and I hope that the powers that be someday recognize the importance of the work that Paul does and the positive impact it has on the community.

I never would have got back into SFB without SFBOL, and I had to buy alot of products to get back up to date in 2010 when I found SFBOL. My future gaming in the SFU depends on this projects success, I for one dont want to quit playing any time soon.

I also dont want to feel like new modules are just for those lucky guys who have local gaming groups but I already have a few modules that in the old days would have already been made available for online play and I cant keep buying new modules if there not going to be available on the client for years if ever.

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 05:13 pm: Edit

Eh. If I am VOLUNTEERING to do something, it makes precious little sense to me to have to continually hound the person to give me work to do.
I'll be perfectly honest. I have NO IDEA what the issues are, why this has to be done, and all that. Don't care, really. Just want to help get it done.
What needs to happen?

By Josh Driscol (Gfb) on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 05:33 pm: Edit

What needs to happen is we need instructions on how to convert to the new format, and I would guess Paul could assign each volunteer a list of ships and fighters to work on so that we dont duplicate each others work.

To put it another way we need better communication from Paul on what he needs from us.

Those of us who dont understand the SSD definition tool will probably need that video Paul was going to send you.

We all just want to get it done, I remember reading about this stuff back before CL 44 was printed. But after that that CL was published there was no renewed talk about this new SSD format or the project to convert the existing files.

The subject came up in another forum on the BBS but was better discussed here so by bringing it up again I am hoping we will start to see some real progress soon.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 05:49 pm: Edit

The old format could be used to play tabletop SFB and was used for that. More than that, players who only played SFBOL quit buying the products as they got them for free via SFBOL. That devastated the company and cost us tens of thousands of dollars. Nobody ever got ADB's permission to do those in the first place. Nobody told ADB it was being done.

The old format looked like an SSD.

The new format doesn't have 12 forward hull boxes, it has one box with the number 12 and as ou take hits the client counts that number down to zero.

I'm not the problem here. If work had moved ahead on the new conversions, you would have nothing to complain about. I don't know why it did not.

I told you guys the path out.

1. Get busy converting the SSDs you have.

2. New ones can be addeed in some proportion to old ones converted.

3. We're probably going to have to have some kind of deal that we need to see at least 50% of SFBOL members buy a copy of a new product before it goes on line.

By Gregg Dieckhaus (Gdieck) on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 06:02 pm: Edit

So this is like the original 1.0 verison of SFBOL where SSDs were a grid that was purely numbers based I guess.

By Matthew Potter (Neonpico) on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 06:07 pm: Edit

I would be very surprised to see "50% of SFBOL members buy a copy of" any given product. There's huge swaths of modules I won't buy because my local opponents and I aren't interested. But I'm asked to buy them so I can see my interests (e.g. SSDs) represented in SFBOL?

It sounds like you're shooting SFBOL in the foot, because I doubt you're going to see it drive your sales the way you just asked it to.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 06:17 pm: Edit

We'll talk, but when multiple SFBOL people BRAG about not having to buy new products because they're free on SFBOL, that means we don't need new products on SFBOL and maybe not at all.

But until the new format SSDs get moving, we don't really have any basis for discussion.

By Josh Driscol (Gfb) on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 06:19 pm: Edit

So we would have to buy modules we have no interest in to not be able to use the graphical SSD's in the ones we are interested in and have purchased.

SFBOL is for lack of a better word a virtual tabletop for playing SFB, if we do own the modules why wouldnt it be alright for us to use the SSD's in the form that there published in?

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 06:23 pm: Edit

I totally understand the problem, and have no problem in theory going to some other format. However, unless I can play SFBOL I basically can't play SFB at all due to my life circumstances. I'd be pretty bummed if this issue can't be resolved.

I do make a specific point of buying new products as they come out, because I want to support the company and not be a freeloader. However, maybe I'm the exception.

By Paul Scott (The_Rock) on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 06:26 pm: Edit

Steve,
None of us (that I know) have had a chance to see a mock up of the new SSD style. Do you have one and if so could you post it? If not, could I give you a short list (about 5) of question to answer about them.

That said, none of us can "get busy" because, to my knowledge (and I have volunteered, at least as to FCOL (and I am not sure if this new format applies to FCOL)) none of us have been given the tools necessary to get busy. As Randy noted, the issue is not a lack of volunteers.

I also complete agree with Will (sheap); the best way to do this is to write code to transform all the SSDs at once and then edit them as necessary, but we really can't answer if that is even possible without seeing a new SFBOL SSD.

Please help your able and willing group of volunteers move this project along.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 06:27 pm: Edit

SVC,

What do you think about SFBOL players paying an optional premium fee? If you pay the premium fee you get the SSD look (not just the new format you're discussing) and you also get access to SSDs for new products. ADB could collect a sizable portion of the premium fee - that way ADB gets to recoup any losses as a result of certain online players not buying products (and hopefully make even more money than that), but those of us with the means still get to play with the new products and to play with the better-looking SSDs online.

Personally, I'd be more than happy to pay a premium fee to have access to SFBOL, good-looking SSDs, and new products as they come out. I know of a few other players would absolutely do the same. Pretty much because that's the only way I'm going to get to play SFB nowadays.

By Josh Driscol (Gfb) on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 06:32 pm: Edit

I dont think you are the exception, the people who've got SVC so mad are not the norm and probably arent even still active players.

In 2 years ive made alot of purchases, some re buying old modules from the 90's because they were too dated to be usable.

In 2010 I bought the paper MRB in October only to have the eMRB come out that December, in place of complaining I bought it agian in electronic format.

I bought the first 19 Captains logs off of e23 even though I have about 17 of them in paper copies also.

I think there is a segment of the online community thats not just buying the products one time but multiple times, and still I cant help but feel were all demonized by the acts of a few really nasty people.

By Josh Driscol (Gfb) on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 06:36 pm: Edit

I would pay a premium to have the graphical SSD's that I am used to and get access to newer content thats published.

By Shawn Hantke (Shantke) on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 06:49 pm: Edit

I agree that the many are being punished by the actions of the few.
I am primarily a collector since I have no one to play with. The few games I have played have been on SFB online. SFB Online is my only option to play unless we move somewhere where there are players. (The plan is to move to Denver, though not sure when it will happen). I would play a premium to have the older style SSDs but the problem is that even at a premium price it would still be cheaper than probably buying all the modules and hence an open door for piracy.

Ad Astra Games have a 16 digit registration code on a sticker that is stuck to each rulebook. You go on to their site register the project and get free bonus content. I know the idea of codes is unpopular but if the R Modules had a code sticker that could be registered by one player once only and that would allow them to unlock the SSDs for that module on SFB Online. If you don't use or like those ships and didn't want them you wouldn't have to buy the module and the ships would not be usable by you in the client. The only problem would be all of the old modules, that would have to be grandfathered in somehow. Perhaps the for the older modules just the sticker and registration code could be sold for a few dollars each.

By Josh Driscol (Gfb) on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 06:52 pm: Edit

Also thank you to SVC for taking the time to explain ADB's position and listen to our concerns.

I hope that we can find a system for the SSD's that meets the players need for graphical SSD's, and your need to keep the company in the green selling products.

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 06:52 pm: Edit

I think there is a segment of the online community thats not just buying the products one time but multiple times, and still I cant help but feel were all demonized by the acts of a few really nasty people.

And if we know anything about internet piracy, no matter what clever method you dream up to beat the pirates, they will get you in the end.

I think it is a huge risk upsetting the vast majority of people who do the right thing, if the replacement stalls the pirates only temporarily, but reduces the appeal of the game.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 07:14 pm: Edit

I don't think the premium fee idea is workable. Somebody just pays it for one month, downloads every product, and the problem is right back.

From the one sample I was shown long ago, the new format is 100% as functional for SFBOL (even better in many regards) and there is no reason for anyone to prefer or need the current ones.

I think it would be really cool to have a system where only someone who bought a copy of Module E8 can play E8 on SFBOL but I'm not sure that's actually practicable. If it is, swell, but it will be the new format SSDs, which again, are superior to the current second generation ones.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 07:21 pm: Edit

Looking, I have found the one sample I was sent on 4 Nov 2011 but it's in a format I cannot upload and so far I cannot find any way to convert it. Still working on that, trying every graphics program I have. If I have to, I'll scream grab it, but that could be messy. Probably simpler to just go do one from scratch.

By Jean Sexton (Jsexton) on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 - 07:26 pm: Edit

Guys, I know for a fact that on at least one other BBS someone advocated joining SFBOL, downloading all the ships, and then dropping the subscription. If that happened in one place, I am sure it is happening elsewhere and as well as via email. We have also found the SFBOL library as a torrent. We don't like hurting our customers, but SVC, SPP, Leanna, Mike, and Joel need to eat. (And yes, I know that not every download would be a sale, but if an item has 300 downloads in a week and 10% would buy it if they didn't get it free and the item is $25, then you are seeing a loss of $750 to ADB from just ONE item and there were more )

That means we need to have some way of keeping the rest of the horses in the barn. We need to work together to determine what that is -- and first is that the SFBOL library needs to be updated. I've emailed Paul and I hope that he and I and SVC can work out some way to get that done. Then we can figure out how and when to get the new ships in there. Let's eat the elephant one bite at a time with the first bite being getting the SSDs updated to the new format.