Shawn, it would have to be 8 DN's but it is somewhat plausible otherwise.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, November 14, 2012 - 01:17 pm: Edit

Shawn Hantke:

While not the Federation, I tend to think "Titan and the Unicorn" already covers "Pearl Harbor" quite well for Star Fleet Battles.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, November 14, 2012 - 01:22 pm: Edit

Background to the Winged Revenge Scenario:

(Y177) by Ryan Opel, ???

The Winged Revenge was a Pegasus-Class hull completed as a carrier in Y175. It was quickly committed to the battles along the "firewall" (the chain of bases the Coalition attempted to complete to contain the Hydrans). As part of the repeated attacks by the Hydran navy, the Winged Revenge would slip behind Coalition lines and take up a position behind the main battle area. A scout (whatever was available, sometimes even a police flagship was used) would accompany the Winged Revenge. On orders from fleet command, the scout would activate its special sensors and sweep for Coalition ships withdrawing from the battle zone. The scout would then, still scanning heavily, itself withdraw back to Hydran held space.
The scout’s strong sensor sweeps acted as a beacon, drawing any Coalition ships nearby towards it in an attempt to catch the Hydran "task force." The scout would then link up with Hydran forces and, sometimes under pressure by Coalition forces, complete its withdraw back into Hydran held space.
Meanwhile the Winged Revenge would use the information gained by the scout’s sweeps to position itself to launch its fighters on a strike against an isolated crippled Coalition warship, small convoy, or even a small base or other logistics asset. Once it recovered its fighters, the Winged Revenge would escape from Coalition space, again using the data from the scout’s sensor sweeps showing what Coalition forces had moved out of place in an attempt to intercept the scout, leaving a gap for the Winged Revenge to escape.
The operation was successfully conducted numerous times over a period of two years. Not every incursion led to a raid by the Winged Revenge’s fighters, as sometimes the scout’s sweeps would not uncover any suitable targets. The Winged Revenge was, of course, not the only raider being dispatched behind Coalition lines as part of the Hydran fleet’s offensive moves. Fast raiders, other carriers, and even standard warships were also conducting raids as part of any offensive thrust in an effort to keep the Coalition both off balance and unable to complete their "firewall."
The Winged Revenge, however, fell victim to a failure of operations security. The commander of a squadron of Klingon D5s had analyzed the pattern of its raids. He had been fooled by the Hydran tactic several times before, but this time when the Hydran scout initiated its scans and began moving back towards Hydran space, he deployed his ships and instead sweeped back into Coalition held space. The scout detected this movement and warned the Winged Revenge, but by then it was too late to avoid a clash.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, November 14, 2012 - 04:44 pm: Edit

Keep in mind that the fight between the Kzinti CV Rapier and the Klingon D7 Decimator occurred in Y185, i.e., ". . . only a week before the ceasefire."

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, November 14, 2012 - 06:14 pm: Edit

Following up on Frazier Concept;

Basically a duel.

C7 Decimation with 2xG1+

versus

CVS Rapier, 3xLKFM

General Concept: Decimation is beginning a raid. Rapier is in the process of refitting after combat, its escorts are crippled and both are in an FRD undergoing major repairs. The Rapier has been resupplied, but its fighter group is still depleted and it is waiting both for additional replacement fighters, and for its escorts to be repaired and resupplied.

The Rapier was the only ship available to block the Decimation.

Kzintis win if the Decimation is crippled, as it must disengage if this happens (cannot go on a raid if your are crippled).

Klingons win if the Rapier is destroyed and the Decimation is not crippled.

Scenario lasts ten turns.

The Decimation can have an MRS, the Rapier cannot (reflects Rapier still waiting on resupply and the Decimation having been loaded up in anticipation of its raid).

As noted, right now this is just a "duel," there are no real special rules involved other than neither ship can attempt to disengage unless it is crippled (historically, the Rapier does not make it).

Other thoughts?

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Wednesday, November 14, 2012 - 06:25 pm: Edit

Background to the Winged Revenge Scenario:

(Y177) by Ryan Opel, USS Florida

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Wednesday, November 14, 2012 - 10:09 pm: Edit

Rapier doesn't have T-bombs, again awaiting resupply. Drone and reloads for fighters not an issue as the CVS carriers 150 spaces of drones. Say 50 spaces left to select drones from. Most of those 50 spaces are used to fill the actual drone racks and reloads of the carrier and "remaining" fighters.

Decimation does have T-bombs as it is on the beginning of a raid. The Decimation has full drone racks and reloads in accordance with existing drone rules.

Question: Does either ship captain know about the upcoming ceasefire? I don't believe so. I also don't believe that the commodore or admiral in charge of the sector that the Rapier is in knows about the upcoming ceasefire either. So thus the see the see C7 as a key unit to be destroyed if possible to enhance the Kzinti position. The Klingons see the destruction of the Rapier in the same light.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, November 15, 2012 - 11:28 am: Edit

Thomas Mathews:

Frankly I would imagine both are aware of the ceasefire talks.

Just as they are both aware there have been talks before which broke down (Ceasefire Collapse, Lone Gray Wolf, Wreck of the Rex).

The only valid reason to suspend combat operations would be if a date certain for the cessation of hostilities had been announced, the Klingon commander would probably not have initiated the raid unless he had pretty strong evidence that the raid was necessary.

The fact that hostilities did cease a week after this action is a trajedy, not just for the crew of the Rapier but those Klingon subjects who also died in the action. It is also, in the case of the Klingons, meaningless. For the Kzintis, the historical outcome might note that the Rapier would in all likelihood have supported the Usurper's Heir in the "WYN War of Return." Its loss may have been one of the tipping points that altered the balance in his campaign and resulted in the stalemate in that war that was resolved by a personal duel (albeit in Space Contol Ships) between the Usurper's Heir and the Crown Prince.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, November 15, 2012 - 01:35 pm: Edit

The point, however, remains: is there something we can do with this (Rapier versue Decimation) that makes is something other than an (SG1.0) duel? Oh, sure, the Rapier is a CVS (but even at that, it is basically a BCH) with three fast heavy mega fighters, and the Decimation is a C7 with a pair of G1s, but it is still basically a duel between two BCHs.

What would make this battle interesting in its own right? Is there some special rule besides "fight to the death" that will cause you as players to want to play the battle between these two ships?

Adding more ships (say a MAC and DWA to Rapier, perhaps with a DWS, and a D5W and F5W with a FWS to the Klingons, perhaps both with PFs on mech links and more megafighters on the Rapier) would just make it a "Fleet Action" (SG2.0), albeit one with a Klingon task force engaging a Kzinti Carrier Group.

So, what would make the duel between the Rapier and Decimation a scenario that would be interesting to play?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, November 15, 2012 - 05:48 pm: Edit

Proposed background to the Decimation (C7) versus Rapier (CVSH) scenario.

(Y185) by Ryan Opel, Florida

Heavy battlecruisers were constructed as "dreadnought substitutes," that is to provide the command facilities of a dreadnought to coordinate operations and at least a moderate upgrade in firepower and toughness compared to the heavy command cruisers which had begun superceding the prewar command cruisers in Y175. To that end, while basically intended to operate as command ships they, like the cruisers they were descended from, were often used on independent missions rather than as the centerpiece of a battlegroup or fleet. Even though they were "heavy battlecruisers," they remained cruisers and as such were far more expendable than the dreadnoughts they were intended to substitute for, and better able to survive the riskier missions that cruisers were asked to perform.
In Y185 the Klingon heavy battlecruiser Decimation headed into Kzinti space on a raid. There was no set target for the raid; its purpose was to test the Kzinti response. The previous months had seen a series of Kzinti attacks on the Klingon Northern Fleet’s defenses, none of which had accomplished anything of significance, but Northern Fleet’s intelligence sections interpreted the attacks as probing for a weakness for a major assault. The sudden cessation of the attacks was seen as the final calm before the storm. The Decimation’s raid was designed to draw a response from the Kzintis; the strength of that response and the direction from which it came would indicate where the Kzintis were probably marshalling their forces for the main assault. This knowledge would allow Northern Fleet to best position its slender reserve forces to counter the attack.
What the Northern Fleet analysts were unaware of was that the just completed series of Kzinti attacks were actually a feint intended to accomplish one goal: convince the Northern Fleet that the Kzintis were too strong to be attacked. It was a case of, as happens so often in war, the other side not getting the right message.
As the Decimation advanced, the Kzinti Duke’s Fleet scrambled to find something from its depleted forces to stop it. The Rapier carrier group was closest, but the group had been badly shot up in the earlier fighting. Rapier itself (the least damaged ship in its group) had been restored to operational capability, but its fighter group losses had not been made good and its escorts were still crippled. Nothing else was available to intercept Decimation before it penetrated deeply enough to learn how weak the Duke’s Fleet was in the sector into which it was intruding.
In violation of long established doctrine, dating back to the similar battle between the Cutlass and the Annihilation in Y166, the Rapier sallied alone to parry the thrust of the Decimation.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, November 15, 2012 - 06:00 pm: Edit

Note: That last paragraph of the introduction says plainly what I have said before, as it stands right now the scenario is just a replay of (SH10.0) The Cutlass Episode, replacing the C7 with a D7B and the CVSH with a CV. You could use the same scenario (allowing for the technology changes, refits, and etc.) set up as it stands right now.

So, other than the changed ships and different background, what would make this battle different from (SH10.0) that would make you want to play it? What special rule if any should be added?

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar2) on Thursday, November 15, 2012 - 07:48 pm: Edit

The only thing that comes to mind is unusual terrain (nebula maybe?) and/or damage (C7 ran into an unexpected picket or is returning from its raid), say 20-30 internals [18+2D6] on both ships...

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Thursday, November 15, 2012 - 09:35 pm: Edit

Just an observation, to make it different.

Make the Kzinti's have a CVS, and lets say 4xLFSs (instead of 3), that are an independent squadron, so the Rapier can't reload the fighters disruptors. Then the Rapier doesn't have heavy fighter readyracks, so the kzinti weightlifting rule has to be used to reload them.

Then Klingons have 2xG1s (as suggested above).

Maybe the "objective" is to rescue a crippled APT crew (that is carrying spies or commandoes to be picked up). Maybe landed on a planet or moon (ala the Fed Hood).

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, November 16, 2012 - 01:09 pm: Edit

Scott Tenhoff:

You did, perhaps, read the background, right? The background very specifically states that the ship was converted to use heavy fighters:

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Thursday, April 12, 2012 - 09:00 pm: Edit

RAPIER CV-4 ". . . Rapier fought during the entire General War, was converted to carry heavy fighters in Y179,"

Proposing that we ignore the history to create a historical scenario is . . . words are failing me, I just cannot think of the right word (no disparagement meant here, I really am having trouble trying to think of the word I wanted).

We might change the fighters to non-Mega types (and give the ship a fourth fighter, having them all equiped with warp booster packs instead) as the background does not define them as mega fighters, but I thought to use that rule for some difference and to make the three Kzinti fighters more of a problem for the Klingons.

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Friday, November 16, 2012 - 04:34 pm: Edit

What about the reverse of Scott's suggestion? The Rapisr was configured to carry heavy fighters, per history, but was unable to obtain replacement for losses from a recent battle. Instead, it went into combat carrying a few ad hoc regular fighters that asupply officer was able to scrounge up in a hurry.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, November 16, 2012 - 04:44 pm: Edit

Jason E. Schaff:

Does this make the scenario a duel that you want to play? Does it add enough interest to make it different enough from (SH10.0) to stand on its own?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, November 16, 2012 - 06:59 pm: Edit

Jason E. Schaff:

I am not trying to be harsh or mean, I am just asking if you think the arrangement you are proposing would make for an interesting scenario.

It means changing the background as, to have any "real" effect, the Rapier would have to be at a lower weapon status so that it had to actually use the "weight-lifting team" rule to arm the fighters. It is unlikely to need to do so if it begins at WS-III (fighters already loaded because it knows it is going into a fight as the background says now), or for that to be a factor. The fighters will either have been destroyed or the Klingons driven off before it mattered if they start armed.

I am not saying that changing the background is grounds for not doing it, just that if this is done, the background would need to be changed to account for the Rapier being at a low weapon status and thus having to use the weight lifting team rule.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Friday, November 16, 2012 - 07:05 pm: Edit

The Rapier might have 2 spare heavy fighters to break out of storage. It is also possible that those spare fighters could have been broken out and lost before this last battle. So the Rapier could have 3 or 4 heavy fighters available to balance the G1s. The fight does need to be even or it won't be fun to play. However I think it might need to be in some terrain feature that is slightly more disadvantageous to the Kzintis than the Klingons.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 01:29 am: Edit

So if you are writing a story you'd like some ideas?

How about a COMBAT story about the smaller squadrons on the "Day of the Eagle"/ "Day One"

So you'd have (say) a tiny squadron of a couple/ three second line ships (say a RD4, Pol, plus a Snipe G dueling with some teensy base defenders then going in for the Marine Landing.

So you could have the scenario PLUS the Marine Attack scenario too.

I think there probably were a LOT more of these tiny little actions than the big Cruiser battles we've seen so far.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 08:22 am: Edit

Plus it would be a cool addition to the SPP classic explanantions of how colony defenses develop.

Personally, I think the smaller ships are more interesting from a RPG & fiction perspective.

Hmm.

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 11:56 am: Edit

SPP
One way to make the "weigtlifting team rule" still be significant would be to specify that the Rapier had just reached WS3 immediately prior to the start of the scenario. That gives a number pf turns of deck crew actiona sufficient to arm the normal complement of fighters, which wouldn't be enough to fully load up the ad-hoc force.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 04:59 pm: Edit

Thomas Mathews:

Without an outstanding crew, you are not breaking any shuttle (or fighter) out of storage during a scenario. The original "background" I posted above assumes that any spare fighters have already been broken out, which is why the ship only has three of its authorized six heavy fighters (see the draft order of battle for the scenario I posted in the message prior to the draft scenario background above).

As to balance, by BPV the Rapier with its Y175 refit, drone speed upgrades, and three heavy fighters is within a few BPV points of the Decimation with two G1+ gunboats after accounting for drone speed upgrades (both sides are between 300 and 308 BPV). There is going to be some variation (swapping type-I frames for type-IV frames will result in reduction in the BPV spent for drone speed upgrades), but it is reasonably close for a duel.

Michael C. Grafton:

You might check what the topic is about, it is not about fiction (short of the stuff that goes into a "scenario introduction"), it is about taking scenario hooks (tidbits of background information buried in ship descriptions, historical notes, and etc. about ships lost or that had supposedly notable battles) and turning them into actual scenarios. In the particular case under discussion it is the fight between the Decimation (Klingon C7) and the Rapier [Kzinti CVS(H)] in which the Rapier was destroyed.

Jason E. Shaff:

A Kzinti CVS normally has a dozen deck crews. Two deck crews can work on one fighter. With two deck crews working on eight TADSCM in a heavy fighter bay it would take 15 turns to fully arm the fighter.

Example: Turn #1, two deck crews begin loading a type-I drone [normally takes one deck crew one turn to load a drone (J4.821), however this is tripled by the weightlifting team rule because they are working in a box of the wrong size for the fighter (J4.899), but we have two deck crews working in tandem to load the drone (J4.8172)].

Turn #2 the two deck crews finish loading the first drone and start loading a second.

Turn #3 the two deck crews finish loading the second drone.

Turn #4 the two deck crews begin loading a third drone.

Turn #5 the two deck crews finish loading the third drone and start on the fourth drone.

Turn #6 the two deck crews finish loading the fourth drone.

Turn #7 the two deck crews begin loading the fifth drone.

Turn #8 the two deck crews finish loading the fifth drone and start loading the sixth drone.

Turn #9 the two deck crews finish loading the sixth drone.

Turn #10 the two deck crews start loading the seventh drone (might be a type-III, but of course they could have started with the special rails as the first drone they loaded, or at any time).

Turn #11 the two deck crew finish loading the seventh drone and start loading the eighth drone (which at this juncture might be the second type-III allowed, but you can always put a standard type-I on special rail).

Turn #12 the two deck crews finish loading the eighth drone.

Turn #13 the two deck crews begin loading a fighter pod.

Turn #14 the two deck crews finish loading the first fighter pod and begin loading the second fighter pod.

Turn #15 the two deck crews finish loading the second fighter pod.

Turn #16 the Fighter is fully armed and ready for launch on Impulse #1.

If the ship purchased its four allowed extra deck crews under the Commander's Options, it could have eight fully armed TADSCM fighters ready on Impulse #1 of Turn #16, but it would take another 15 turns to finish arming the other four fighters (assuming it had a full squadron of 12 and none was an EW version). Of couse time can be saved by launching the fighters with fewer drones. (Whether they are simply earlier fighters with fewer rails to start with, or you just do not load the rails.) Or you could load some of the rails with type-VI drones or RALADS (which would only take 3/4ths of a turn each to load with two deck crews).

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 06:23 pm: Edit

Jason E. Schaff:

Note, the above is not saying no, it is just making sure you know what the rules say in that situation.

So, how do you want to define it?

The current background (that I wrote, and again I am not saying "No you must do what I wrote, I am not changing it," I am saying "If we change the at start situation, it will require modifying the background to correspond with the actual scenario) assumes the Rapier knew it was heading into an interception of the Decimation, and had already made all preparations to engage the Decimation. Changing the arming level of any fighters carried by definition means the Rapier did not know it was going to encounter the Decimation, but picked up the approaching Decimation on its scanners and began arming at that point. Surprise (as in we did not know we were going to fight today), but not complete surprise (as in we did not see him coming until we were already being shot at).

You also get into what special rules/scenario set up you will need to keep the Rapier from running from the Decimation for 30 turns (assuming a full squadron of 12 TADSCM fighters in the heavy fighter bay) in order to fully arm its fighters before it turns to fight. (The commander of the ship would need a pretty compelling reason not to just run until the fighters were fully armed as he would gain an edge in combat at that point, even if reloading the fighters would be problematical.)

So, what rules are you proposing for the arming status of the fighters? Do you want to allow the Kzinti Captain four turns, eight turns, or what in terms of deck crew actions to arm the fighters (he can make his own choices about what drones to load and whether or not to use pods)? Are you going to give him a full squadron of TASDCM fighters, or some reduced number (compensating for the fact that they will not be fully armed)? Or some lesser fighters? Or some mix of fighters?

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 06:46 pm: Edit

A thought;

Perhaps the Rapier has X number of it's own fighters that it can reload, and it carried X number of single space fighters that were waiting for a different ship to arrive to pick them up.

Now the dynamic becomes, how much do I arm the extras, at the risk of loosing the ones I can easily rearm?

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 06:51 pm: Edit

SPP, I apologize for not being more clear in my statements about the spare shuttles. I meant that the crew had broken out the spare shuttles much earlier than in the final battle and may have lost them to another Klingon raid or pirate attack before the final battle itself.