Thomas Mathews:

Sure, but as noted the spare shuttles are either accounted for in the set up or they are not. The original Order of Battle I proposed assumed that the ship had one heavy fighter remaining (having lost the others in the fighting which had crippled its escorts), that resupply/replacement fighters had not yet reached it (although the copious Kzinti drone supply system had replaced its used drones), and it had broken out the two in storage, thus giving it three available.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Sunday, November 18, 2012 - 09:43 pm: Edit

It might be simpler to state that the Decimation is raiding something specific (say 200 hexes that way) and the Rapier has to stop it. It solves the running away problem and adds some other fluff. The target might be something fairly petty like a relay station or ground base. The Rapier is accompanied by something like an APT or FCR to help with the evacuation.
Then the VCs come from the successful defence / evacuation whether or not the CV survives.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, November 19, 2012 - 12:02 pm: Edit

Jim Davies:

It is Y185 in a region in which the tides of war have washed back and forth. What, in such a region, is going to be worth attacking that would not also be defended heavily enough that a single ship would be able to attack and worth spending a CVS(H) to defend?

You are the sector commander, tell me what you would spend a CVS(H) without escorts and a restricted fighter group to defend?

You are the Klingon commander, tell me what you would assign as the target for a BCH that would be worth risking that ship in a duel with another BCH?

Remember, guys, a Kzinti CVS is pretty much (without being called such) the first "Heavy Battlecruiser." It has the same number of drone racks and disruptors as the C7, but only half as many phaser-1s (attempting to counter the C7's five extra phaser-1s on the C7 with nine extra phaser-3s). The C7 is a pure combat ship, which gives it edges in shields (14 boxes total), power (7 points of generation and two points of reserve), an extra shuttle, and a superior turn mode (C versus E). The Kzinti has a slight edge in internal damage points (126 versus 117). Both ships have deep drone stock piles for the scenario as I intend (the C7 has its normal loads, plus the load of a MRS shuttle, and the reloads for the PFs), while the C7S has the reloads for its drone racks, plus the full reloads for an embarked fighter group which is not available).

As set right now (without messing with the fighter group as proposed) it would be a bloody duel [the C7 and its two PFs against the CVS(H) and three fast heavy mega fighters). And as noted other than the ships themselves, it is just a duel.

Setting the fight 200 hexes from some fixed location so the Kzinti can spend six turns loading drones on fighters does not seem like an interesting scenario to me (sorry). All I see is that the Kzinti runs at Speed 31 while the Klingon chases him at Speed 31 (but not right behind in order to not run over a T-bomb). At the end of six turns the Kzinti turns to fight 14 or so hexes from the planet/moon/asteroid/small base.

What was the point? You may as well set up the battle 14 or so hexes from the base and tell the Kzinti player that he has six turns of arming to do on his size-1 fighters in the size-2 bays, i.e., he has eight fighters that have four drones loaded and four more fighters that he can start loading drones on (or he can launch four fighters and continue loading drones on four fighters and start loading drones on four fighters), or however he wants to divide the work.

But spending six turns doing energy allocation for running ships before the fighting really starts seems pretty boring to me.

And, again, what kind of target could there be in this region of space that would be endangered by a single ship, be worth sending a single ship to attack, but be worth deploying with no defenses against a raid by a single ship, and so important that when it is raided you are willing to risk a poorly equiped CVS(H) to defend it?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, November 19, 2012 - 02:03 pm: Edit

Jim Davies:

Note that what I am saying is that at the start of the General War, when the Klingons were first rolling across the Kzinti frontier, there were a lot of Kzinti targets to attack and defend and limited resources. After more than 15 years of war which saw the Kzintis driven back to their core planets, and then advance back out to their original borders, and the Alliance launch a major offensive from Kzinti space against the Klingon Northern Starbase, there is just not going to be very many "soft" targets remaining in that regions of Kzinti space.

So you have to define something that would reasonably be there (which was why I went for the Kzintis trying to create a false image of strength, and the Klingons being fooled, but nor reacting quite the way the Kzintis had hoped). It also has to reasonably be so ill-defended that a single ship could raid it, and be reasonably so valuable that the Kzintis would risk an unsupported and underequipped CVS(H) to defend it.

Now, a retiring DN might fit the bill, but that runs into the problem that once the Klingon C7 encounters the CVS(H), the "raid" is over (a C7 by itself is not going to be able to tangle with a CVS(H) and then be able to go on and attack a withdrawing DN).

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, November 19, 2012 - 02:29 pm: Edit

Thomas Mathews suggested terrain that was "slightly more disadvantageous to the Kzintis than the Klingons." As both empires are disruptor/drone armed, I am not sure what such a terrain feature would be. Something that affected fighters would be a big (rather than a slight) disadvantage, and I am not sure there is anything else due to the similar technologies.

By Andrew J. Koch (Droid) on Monday, November 19, 2012 - 04:14 pm: Edit

Probably due to the reliance on seeking weapons by the Kzintis.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, November 19, 2012 - 04:36 pm: Edit

Andrew J. Koch:

I am not sure what you are referring to. The Kzinti CVS(H) is no more reliant on seeking weapons than the Klingon C7. Both have four disruptors, both have one ADD rack, and both have four drone racks (Klingon 4xtype-B, Kzinti 2xtype-C and 2xtype-B), both have supporting assets (in my original proposed Order of Battle) that bring disruptors (2xRange-10 disruptors that can fire every turn and be overloaded on the Klingon G1s, 6xRange-10 disruptors that can fire three times each on the Kzinti fast heavy mega fighters), and drones 4xtype-A drone racks on the Klingon G1s, rails for six single space and four half space drones on the Kzinti fighters). The Kzinti has an edge in short term drone throw-weight [the fighters can launch six drones a turn (two each) and the type-C drone racks can launch twice in a turn], but the Klingon has more staying power (four drones a turn for six turns from the four type-B drone racks). Both have scatter-packs available, and roughly equal drone control capabilities (each ship can control 12 seeking weapons, the two G1s can each control 6 and an MRS shuttle can control six, while each Kzinti fighter can control six unless also carrying a drone control pod).

So I do not see the Kzinti more reliant on seeking weapons than the Klingon in the initial proposed OoB, and if the Kzintis have trouble rearming fighters as proposed by Jason Schaff (if I recall correctly), the Klingon will be the one more reliant on drone attack (to distract Kzinti weapons and reduce the damage his ship takes).

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Monday, November 19, 2012 - 09:11 pm: Edit

I think the survival (or capture or whatever) of the target has to be what decides victory, this being a raid. So it has to be on the map. As SPP suggests, it can't be anything big or fixed, implying a convoy.

Suppose the Kzintis have a convoy of captured Klingons, one of whom is important (a spy, the admiral's daughter, etc). The Klinks would expend extra effort to recover him/her, but presumably can't spare more than one ship. They might have sent the rest of the local squadron off on a feint, hoping that a single cruiser might be able to sneak through.

Meanwhile the hard-pressed Kzintis have run out of CM engine spares so the CVS's escorts are stuck at the local FRD. The CVS is sent off alone to intercept a lone cruiser (it's just a D5, isn't it?) because, as noted, a CVS is a BCH with fighters. Easy.

So add a small convoy, say F-L, F-S, F-AS. One has the admiral's daughter aboard. The Kzinti doesn't appreciate her significance so doesn't know where she is. Put 3 counters in a cup - one is the daughter.

The C7 must perform a successful H&R on one of the freighter's control spaces (no guards allowed) to check the prisoner roster for that ship. Pull a counter out of the cup. 32 impulses later, she can be rescued by transporter.

The other prisoners are of no significance.

If the Kzintis keep her, she can later be traded in a prisoner exchange, so both sides have the same victory conditions.

You'll probably need to add a rule to prevent the F-AS from running away immediately.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Monday, November 19, 2012 - 09:59 pm: Edit

What if the target was something that wasn't absolutely "vital", but needed, like a Federation Commercial convoy.

A recent Lyran raider pulled away the only ready reserve (maybe fast-ship), leaving the Rapier (who was waiting for replenishment&replacement escorts), but was called into the foray.

Then something tragic happened in the engagement, like pushed into a planet, HET breakdown and tumble, chain-reaction in the shuttle bay by a hit-and-run attack against a reloading LFS, warp engine breakdown.

Maybe the warp engine was wearing out, and each turn the Rapier exceeds speed 20, it adds 1d6 to a running total. When it reaches 30, the warp engine ceases to provide movement power (but still provides power for weapons, etc).

By Dal Downing (3deez) on Tuesday, November 20, 2012 - 12:49 am: Edit

Okay how about the map is open it is what is around the Rapier that adds a twist. As a defacto BCH the Kzinti left the Rapier in the middle of a band of Ion Storms as a picket figuring that even without fighters she should be able to handle any pickets that wandered into her or failing that she could make a good run for it. Since her Escorts were crippled and her Fighter Squadron shattered the escorts transfered all the spare drones to the Rapier and headed back to the barn.

A Fast Carrier Resupply Ship was sent with what spare fighters there were but suffered a warp engine malfunction at the resupply point that rendered it inoperable.

The Klingons knew something happened but not what and figured they had a chance to either take out a bothersome CVS or a FCR sent the Decimator to take a look. The Klingons would not be denied thier prize and the Kzinti were just tired of running. Since historically both ships probably survive the victory conditions are set by the FCR.

By Shawn Hantke (Shantke) on Tuesday, November 20, 2012 - 11:35 am: Edit

Armchair General's 100 Most Decisive Battles


1. Battle of Salamis 480BC

2. Battle of Saratoga 1777

3. Battle of Midway 1942

4. Siege of Constantinople 1453

5. Armada Campaign 1588

6. Battle of Trafalgar 1805

7. Battle of Actium 31 BC

8. Siege of Jerusalem 1099

9. Siege of Vienna 1683

10. Battle of Hastings 1066

11. Battle of Stalingrad 1942-1943

12. Siege of Constantinople 717-718

13. Battle of the Teutoburg Forest 9 AD

14. Battle of the Marne 1914

15. Battle of Marathon 490 BC

16. Battle of Granada 1492

17. Battle of Britain 1940

18. Operation Overlord 1944

19. Battle of Crécy 1346

20. Battle of Tsushima 1905

21. Battle of Cannae 216 BC

22. Siege of Tenochtitlan 1521

23. Battle of Tours 732

24. Battle of the Plains of Abraham 1759

25. Battle of Gettysburg 1863

26. Battle of Gaugamela 331 BC

27. Battle of Yarmouk 636

28. Battle of Lepanto 1571

29. Battle of Adrianople 378 AD

30. Battle of Poltava 1709

31. Battle of Tannenberg 1410

32. Battle of Megiddo 1475 BC

33. Six-Day War 1967

34. Attack on Pearl Harbor 1941

35. Battle of Dien Bien Phu 1954

36. Tet Offensive 1968

37. Battle of Borodino 1812

38. Battle of Lutzen 1632

39. Battle of Austerlitz 1805

40. Yom Kippur War 1973

41. Siege of Constantinople 1204

42. Battle of Lake Peipus 1242

43. Battle of San Jacinto 1836

44. Battle of the Metaurus 207 BC

45. The Inchon Landing 1950

46. Battle of Pharsalus 48 BC

47. Battle of Ipsus 301 BC

48. Siege of Paris 1870-1871

49. The Night Attack 1462

50. Battle of Hattin 1187

51. Battle of Jutland 1916

52. Battle of Aegospotami 405 BC

53. Battle of Valmy 1792

54. Battle of the Boyne 1690

55. Battle of Nineveh 612 BC

56. Battle of Las Navas de Tolosa 1212

57. Battle of Lake Poyang 1363

58. Battle of Leuthen 1757

59. Raid on the Medway 1667

60. Battle of Ain Jalut 1260

61. Battle of Chrysopolis 324

62. Battle of Naseby 1645

63. Battle of Mohacs 1526

64. Battle of Nancy 1477

65. Battle of Bach Dang 1288

66. Battle of Shanhai Pass 1644

67. Battle of Sekigahara 1600

68. Siege of Alkmaar 1573

69. Battle of Koniggratz 1866

70. Battle of Mylae 260 BC

71. Battle of Panipat 1526

72. Battle of Patay 1429

73. Battle of Leuctra 371 BC

74. Battle of Sacheon 1592

75. Battle of Malplaquet 1709

76. Battle of Solferino 1859

77. Battle of Beneventum 275 BC

78. Battle of Fehrbellin 1675

79. Battle of Castillon 1453

80. Battle of Julu 207 BC

81. Battle on the Marchfeld 1278

82. Battle of Chaeronea 338 BC

83. Battle of Taraori 1192

84. Battle of Thymbra 547 BC

85. Battle of Carchemish 605 BC

86. Battle of Muye 1046 BC

87. Battle of Magnesia 190 BC

88. Battle of Agnadello 1509

89. Battle of Tricamarum 533 AD

90. Battle of Boyaca 1819

91. Battle on the Lechfeld 955

92. Battle of Sempach 1386

93. Battle of Chalons 451 AD

94. Battle of Navarino 1827

95. Battle of Isandlwana 1879

96. Battle of Sentinum 295 BC

97. Battle of Nihawand 642 AD

98. Battle of Colenso 1899

99. Battle of Amphipolis 422 BC

100. Battle of Kleidon 1014

Retrieved 20 Nov 2012, from http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92468

I suppose like all lists there would be disagreement on which battles belong here and which ones are in each order. My thought is thus, if we assume that this list is the 100 most decisive, how many of these battles have scenarios in SFB already and how many of them would make for a good scenario in SFB.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, November 20, 2012 - 02:03 pm: Edit

Jim Davies:

The problem with your idea (from my standpoint) is that you have established why it is important for the Klingons to send a ship on the raid, a case could be made that a C7 might be the ship to risk. You have not established why the Kzintis would risk a CVS(H) to defend such a target. The convoy is relatively unimportant (yes, there are Kzinti lives at stake in the ships' crews, but the ships themselves are unimportant, as is what they are carrying. The C7 might rescue some of the Klingon prisoners, but could not rescue them all or ferry such slow ships back to Klingon space before other Kzinti ships could be gathered to intercept and recapture the convoy.

Scott Tenhoff:

Uhm . . . as noted several times, the year is Y185. The Lyrans are basically back in their own space. The Kzintis have reestablished their borders, so you have this thing called "The WYN Star Cluster" which keeps Klingon and Lyran ships from cooperating in engagements with Kzinti ships (as it did before the war). And Federation Commercial Convoys are kind of on the other side of Kzinti space from Lyran space, so I do not see how a Lyran can be involved in this at all (except as an exchange officer on a Klingon ship or running an Orion pirate ship).

Beyond that, running into a planet is "fatal," not something that the ship survives to limp home.

After that, I am somewhat confused by what precisely you are proposing. Is the Rapier somehow damaged and thus easier for the Decimation to destroy? How are you balancing the damage to the Rapier against an intact Decimation? Obviously you have some victory condition in mind?

Dal Downing:

Uh, no, the whole point of this particular scenario is that the background specifically states that the Rapier did not survive this battle.

To All:

Please remember that this is one set up, one proposal. I am NOT married to it. As I have said a duel between the Decimation and the Rapier is just "The Cutlass Episode" (SH10.0) writ somewhat larger. You can propose a completely different take that has the Decimation (for example) leading some kind of task force (C7, D5K, F5W, possibly up to 6xG1 on casual Mech-links) and the Rapier having its entire completement, e.g., CVS(H) [6xLFS(M?)], MAC, DWA (possibly 6xNeedle on mech-links). But again what makes the battle interesting? Maybe one side has a small scout (DWS/FWS)?

Historically, the Rapier dies, and Decimation is assumed to survive (since the background does not say that both Decimation and Rapier went down). While a CVS(H) engaging in a single ship on ship duel in Y185 would be unusual, I am willing to explore that, but my principle concerns is a valid historic background and an interesting scenario where both sides have some chance to win. After all, maybe Rapier was caught by overwhelming force and wins by simply not being destroyed before the end of Turn #x and the Klingons win by destroying it before Turn #x. But both sides have to have a chance to win, and should be able to see the scenario as interesting.

"The Mighty Hood Goes Down" is a pretty hopeless scenario for the Feds, but I will admit to some satisfaction in figuring out how to survive it and escape (even if I did not do any damage to the Klingon ships) way back when in the mid-1980s.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, November 20, 2012 - 03:54 pm: Edit

To be clear, the only things "set in stone" about a battle between the Decimation and the Rapier are what the background says:

1.) The battle was in Y185 a week before the ceasefire (so Spring Y185 in the Federation & Empire time line).

2.) The Decimation was the principle ship involved on the Klingon side.

3.) The Rapier was then operating as a CVS(H) (i.e., it was operating, or at least equipped to operate, a squadron of six heavy fighters).

4.) The Rapier was destroyed.

In creating a scenario what "I" want are a background (scenario introduction) that makes sense given the strategic situation, and a set up that makes for an interesting scenario to play.

Jim Davies proposes there is some kind of critical convoy that Rapier must defend without its escorts. Maybe that can be made to work by the "confusion of war." The Convoy is not what the Klingons think, and is carrying something that is important to the Kzintis. So the Klingons are, in essence, raiding the wrong convoy (the Kzintis cannot be defending the wrong convoy, if Rapier is here, there is something about this convoy that is important to them). The problem become what is important about this convoy to the Kzintis? This is in the border region between the Klingons and Kzintis and into Kzinti space. The Klingons have ravaged this area for a decade, what is here that a Kzinti convoy will have picked up that is so vital to the Hegemony that Rapier has been sent to defend it? Klingon prisoners (which might be a reason for Decimation to raid if they were aware of some truly critical person being among the prisoners) is not a valid reason to risk Rapier in a depleted state. In an undepleted state, yes, the value of killing the Decimation would make it worthwhile, i.e., sending the entire Rapier group to kill the Decimation.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Tuesday, November 20, 2012 - 08:43 pm: Edit

The Rapier could be defending the convoy because it's part of the convoy. A bunch of ships (including the damaged CVS and her crippled escort) are at A and want to retreat to B along with the freighters.

There's an assumption here that the Kzintis think they're taking a risk. After all, would the Klingons really send a C7 - a flagship - out on its own to beat up a convoy when most of their DNs are dead and their economy in ruins? That's what D5s and D5Ws are for. At any range over FORTY hexes (tacintel C, absent a scout) the Kzintis can only tell that it's an MC1 SC3 Klingon. Could be a D3 for all they know. And at 40 hexes, the Klingon is in disruptor range. Bit late to make plans.

Conversely, the Klingons don't know that the convoy of freighters has been joined by a CVS group. It's just some more MC1 and MC1/2 Kzinti ships going rather slowly. Clearly a tug (prime target! yay!) and a large freighter, not a CVS and DWA.

Fog of war and all that.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, November 21, 2012 - 12:05 pm: Edit

Jim Davies:

As noted in the previous background (again, I am not married to it) C7s (and BCHs in general) tended to be treated somewhat in the same manner as heavy cruisers. So a C7 being sent on a raid is no more odd to the Kzintis than it would be to the Klingons if the Kzintis sent a BCH to raid them. The raid is obviously "operational" rather than "Strategic" (the ship has neither fast warp or advanced technology engines), so it is not a deep raid.

My background had the raid as "information gathering," i.e., no real objective, just trying to provoke a reaction by the Kzintis, and then get back out of dodge.

Now, this does not mean that such a raid could not hit a convoy (as part of provoking that reaction), but you have to remember that it is a raid, so the raider does not want to engage anything where it might get hurt, and a convoy with a CVS(H) would fit that perscription (i.e., the convoy has enough firepower that the C7 is likely to be hurt badly and not be able to outrun pursuit by normal warships, much less advanced technology ships).

So, for your purpose, this is not a raid of some kind, but some kind of intercept. Still in the "operational zone," but for some reason this Kzinti force is moving laterally to the front rather than deeper into Kzinti space. (The combination of a convoy and a crippled ship says that this is not a Kzinti force returning from Klingon space. This force had to originate already in Kzinti space and with the crippled CVS(H) should be heading deeper into Kzinti space, not along the front.)

Okay, so what is your balance of forces? How shot up are the Kzinti CVS(H) and DWA so that the Klingon C7 has a chance of winning against those ships and the rest of whatever is in the convoy? A reasonable chance since (as has been noted) historically the CVS(H) is supposed to be destroyed and the Decimation somehow survive?

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Wednesday, November 21, 2012 - 06:52 pm: Edit

SPP:

I don't think the ship have to be alone. Here is the ship histories from CL.

C7 #9: DECIMATION (Battle Control Ship)
Another Battle Control Ship, Decimation entered service only six weeks before the ceasefire, but racked up an impressive combat record against the Kzintis. Losing six escorts in six weeks (three destroyed, three crippled), the Decimation lived up to her name, ravaging the Kzinti carrier strike forces and destroying the strike carrier Rapier, the last Kzinti carrier destroyed during the General War. Decimation served with distinction against the Andromedans (without losing any escorts, at least none were destroyed) and took part in Operation Unity. She retired in Y207 and became the honor guard ship for the Dunkar home planet.

RAPIER CV-4 Rapier fought during the entire General War, was converted to carry heavy fighters in Y179, and was destroyed by the Klingon C7 Decimation only a week before the ceasefire.


So a BCS with escorts vs. CVS(H) with escorts.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Wednesday, November 21, 2012 - 09:35 pm: Edit

Question on the background (if anyone's thought this through) of the ceasefire of the General War.

Just how widely known was it that the Klingons were going to go along with it? I assume the main players were Feds and Klingons.

So would the Klingon Northern Fleet know of ongoing negotiations that the homeworld was conducting? Or how close/not close the agreement was?

Would the Northern Fleet of continued to plan offensive operations on the Kzinti because they were kept in the dark of what was happening at Klinshai? Maybe the Northern Fleet command was planning a renewed offensive and this battle was in preparation to that offensive.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, November 22, 2012 - 06:55 pm: Edit

1.) Decimation: Hmph, my error obviously. I looked up the ship's name and in the data I had it was just a C7, not a C7S. That obviously changes things.

2.) Scott Tenhoff: From the above obviously I am not perfect (and I have never claimed to be, and neither have you), but if you are going to participate could you at least read the topic?
=======================================
By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Wednesday, November 14, 2012 - 10:09 pm: Edit

(Last pargaph retained, previous paragraphs deleted):

Question: Does either ship captain know about the upcoming ceasefire? I don't believe so. I also don't believe that the commodore or admiral in charge of the sector that the Rapier is in knows about the upcoming ceasefire either. So thus the see the see C7 as a key unit to be destroyed if possible to enhance the Kzinti position. The Klingons see the destruction of the Rapier in the same light.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, November 15, 2012 - 11:28 am: Edit

Thomas Mathews:

Frankly I would imagine both are aware of the ceasefire talks.

Just as they are both aware there have been talks before which broke down (Ceasefire Collapse, Lone Gray Wolf, Wreck of the Rex).

The only valid reason to suspend combat operations would be if a date certain for the cessation of hostilities had been announced, the Klingon commander would probably not have initiated the raid unless he had pretty strong evidence that the raid was necessary.

(Last Paragraph deleted)
=============================
I do not need to be explaining the same thing repeatedly.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, November 23, 2012 - 06:16 pm: Edit

Okay, based on the Decimation being a C7S (sorry, as noted it is my fault for not catching that, I checked the ship name registry and Decimation is just listed as a C7, the name was apparently reassigned to the C7S series which had no names in my copy of the registry and I obviously just forgot that had happened).

If we go for a standard group a group, with both sides being at full strength, the Decimation should be able to clobber the Rapier on BPV points (it is close to two-to-one in total BPV).

So, if we assume:

Decimation (C7S) with 6xZ-YC embarked and a standard Flotilla of G1 PFs (G1L, 4xG1, G1S) all with shield refits (as appropriate, i.e., the G1L does not have one), escorted by an AD5, and an FWE, we get about 963 BPV.

If we assume the Rapier [CVS(H)] has a squadron of six LKFMs (Heavy Fast Superiority Fighters with Mega Packs), escorted by a MAC and a DWA, and all three Kzinti ships have the mech-link refit and are carrying two Needles (all with shield refits, but obviously no leader or scout) we get a BPV of 978 points.

In both cases I am assuming all drone rails and drone racks are filled with type-IF drones (except that type-VI rails have type-VI drones), all ADD racks just have ADDs (you can make changes with Commander's Options of course). Players might choose to have ADDs, or even type-VI drones in the type-G drone racks (or on the drone rails of their fighters), or spend Commander's Option points to put type-VI drones in their ADD racks.

Putting Megapacks on the Z-YCs would boost the Klingons to 1,011 BPV (after also accounting for drone speed upgrades on the added drone rails) for an edge of 33 BPV over the Kzintis. Adding Mechlinks to the Klingon escorts would allow additional G1s (amaximum of four), this could also be done for balance.

One variation might be to allow each side to select variant PFs (more drones and less direct-firepower, fewer drones and more direct firepower, maybe a "drone defense" variant with type-E drone racks).

Alternatively, you could add some kind of Kzinti convoy and then give the Klingons the extra G1s (again up to four) to balance the added firepower of the convoy and an assumed police ship escort in the set up. Jim Davies's idea that the Klingons are trying to rescue someone important might be employed (keeps the Klingons from just blowing the convoy and leaving).

And another alternative is instead of adding Needles on mech-links to the Kzintis, some "reduction" could be done to the C7S group [missing fighter(s), damaged or missing G1s, damage to the ships, or one entire escort missing, some or all of these, plus some reduction in stores]. Some damage could be done to both groups of course, and this could be done either with or without the convoy set up.

At nearly a 1,000 BPV each this is a realtively large scenario, with a lot of seeking weapons to track and a lot of EAFs (up to nine on each side counting PF energy allocation), not to mention fighters and shuttles (and if we decide on it, a possible convoy).

Comments?

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Friday, November 23, 2012 - 08:58 pm: Edit

Carrier group battles, especially with drones, take forever. So it would be nice to be able to trim it a bit. Given the state of the Klingon & Kzinti economies, they may well not have the escorts they'd like.

If the Klingons have 3 ships, searching a convoy becomes substantially easier. It would have to be bigger (more EAFs) and/or tougher (more complex EAFs). Alternatively, the Klingons would need to capture the freighter rather than just H&R it.

Other than a convoy, the Klingons might be raiding:
a) a tug towing a captured D5X rear hull (far-fetched but worth recovering / killing)
b) a planet in space that will be Kzinti. There was a Klingon R&D station there. Retrieve or destroy the goodies. This saves on EA and similar complication.
c) other

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Friday, November 23, 2012 - 09:35 pm: Edit

Just an observation, with the above group vs. group, the Klingons have a G1S verses no scout.

While tiny and singular, it still has 2 channels to break lockons, while the Kzintis have nothing. So it does give them an advantage.

Could the Klingons possibly have snuck in another PF to their group as a casual PF.(either G1S or G1Q, I know the G1Q is a rare unit, but if this was a purposeful mission to kill the Rapier, then it could be justified to help overwhelm the CVS(H)). This will give them even a larger EW advantage.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Friday, November 23, 2012 - 11:58 pm: Edit

While the convoy would tie the Rapier to it, it does complicate the scenario. Perhaps to simplify the above, the convoy could replace one or both of the Rapier's Escorts.

The Klingons win by destroying the Rapier, and 50% + or - of the Convoy. The Kzintis win by the convoy disenganging by leaving the may on the opposite side it started from. Assume the Kzintis start on the low number columns and must exit on the high number column, any other direction counts as victory points for the Klingons.

By Dal Downing (3deez) on Saturday, November 24, 2012 - 02:37 am: Edit

Alright just spinning another ideal. What if we kept it a Battle Control Ship - CVS(H) duel. Say we stay with the Escorts are off being repaired.

What if the Decemation was configured to conduct a lone deep strike Ground Raid replacing her ZYs with GASs and Heavy GASs? She could even have replaced some or all of her G1s with Ground Assault versions or flip it she kept her fighters but replaced all G1s with Specialty variants.

The Kzinti are tied to a planet thus they didn't run. And as a bonus you could write a SFM ground scenerio to play during the battle.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, November 24, 2012 - 02:13 pm: Edit

As proposed, the Klingons have 72 flexible seeking weapon control channels (12 on the C7S, 12 on the AD5, 12 on the FWE, and all six PFs can control 6), another 12 restricted control channels (the fighters can each control two drones that they launch, but cannot take control of drones launched by other units, not even other fighters of the squadron), can gain six more flexible channels with a scout channel on the G1S, might gain 10 more semi-restricted channels by putting drone control pods on one of the fighters (such pods if two were used would increase the drone control rating of that fighter from two to 12 and allow it to take control of other drones launched by the squadron, but it could not control drones launched by other units), and might purchase an MRS shuttle for six more unrestricted channels for a total of 106 control channels.

The Kzintis have 30 control channels on ships [CVS(H) has 12, MAC has 12, DWA has 6], 36 on the heavy fighters (adding drone control pods to one of the heavy fighters would increase that to 42), another 36 on the casual PF flotilla, plus possibly six more from an MRS shuttle for a total of 114 control channels, all unrestricted.

The Klingons have a single turn drone throw-weight of 4B (+1) [+4/3] + 4G [+2] + 3G [+2] + 12 + 11A + (+5) [+1] = 34 (+6) [+9/+8].

Explanation of Terms:

4B means 4xtype-B drone racks.
2B (used by the Kzintis below) means 2xtype-B drone racks.
2C (used by the Kzintis below) means 2xtype-C drone racks.
4G means 4xtype-G drone racks.
3G means 3xtype-G drone racks.
11A means 11xtype-A drone racks.
A +# in Paranthesis means an ADD rack launching a type-VI drone.
A +# in brackets means the ship has that many shuttles for potential scatter-packs.
The +#/+# accounts for one shuttle being an MRS and possibly not used as a scatter-pack but for its own drone control capability.

The Klingons can launch 35 type-I drones a turn for two turns (assumes an MRS armed with two type-I drones and no scatter-packs), continue to launch 34 type-I drones a turn for another two turns (MRS is out of the equation), and are then restricted to four type-I drones for one-to-two turns (if you spend one turn or two turns reloading the type-G drone racks on the AD5 and FWE and simply finish emptying the B racks on the C7S). They can confuse things by launching 6-7 type-VI drones from ADD racks (seven if there is an MRS with its own ADD rack so armed). At WS-III there might be as many as seven scatter-packs ready to go (two on each Klingon ship, and one on the G1L), but if so then the MRS, if there is one, would not be ready to go.

The Kzintis have a single turn drone throw-weight of 2B + 2C (+1) [+3/+2], +4G (+2) [+2], +4G (+1) [+2] + 12 + 11A = 37 (+4) [+7/+6].

The Kzintis can maintain a drone throw-weight of 38 for two turns (assumes an MRS loaded with two type-I drones), at the end of two turns the type-C drone racks are empty (as are the MRS drone rails) and the Kzinti drone throw-weight drops to 33 for another two turns (alternatively, the could keep it at 35 for four turns by only launching one drone a turn from the type-C drone racks), then drops to 2 for two turns (emptying the type-B drone racks). They can have six scatter-packs ready to go assuming there is no MRS shuttle ready to go, this reduces to five if there is an MRS shuttle ready to go.

So, yes, it can get intense for a few turns with drones flying. Use of type-IV frames would empty the racks faster, of course.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, November 24, 2012 - 04:55 pm: Edit

Jim Davies:

The Klingons have 20 boarding parties on the C7S, 8 boarding parties on the AD5, 12 boarding parties on the FWE, and one offensive boarding party on the G1L for a total of 41 boarding parties. The three ships all have enough Commander's Option Points to purchase the maximum number of additional boarding parties (10 extra boarding parties, two commando squads, and two engineer squads) for an additional 32 boarding parties, or 73 total.

However, transporters are something of a problem. The C7S has six, the AD5 has three, the FWE has two, and the G1L has one, for a total of 12.

The Kzintis have 20 boarding parties on the CVS(H), 12 boarding parties on the MAC, and eight on the DWA, for 40 total boarding parties. Like the Klingons their three ships can purchase the maximum number of extra boarding parties, so they can have a total of 72 defending boarding parties.

However, they also have fewer transporters, with the CVS(H) having five, the MAC three, and the DWA 2 for a total of 10.

If you add a convoy, the convoy would bring with it additional commander's option points (more defending boarding parties), transporters (more flexibility in moving the boarding parties). Capturing a Kzinti freighter under such conditions is unlikely.

Same thing if you dispensed with the convoy and just used a tug hauling a D5X rear hull (which would grossly change the dynamic in any case as the Klingons would focus on destroying the tug and D5X making destruction of Rapier unlikely).

Similar problem with the planet, the planet is likely to have its own defending boarding parties and the balance of boarding parties would then favor the defender pretty much meaning mission failure before the Klingon C7S group is sent on the mission (i.e., once the Rapier group shows up the Decimation may as well leave).

Scott Tenhoff:

The rules already say that G1S (or anyone's PF scout) cannot appear as a "casual PF," they show up as part of a flotilla or they do not show up. I do not think the C7S is being sent specifically to kill the Rapier. If it was, the Rapier would just leave. Jim Davies is correct that there has to be a reason to fight, something each side was trying to accomplish, and as has been noted, without significant augmentation (adding a casual PF flotilla) Rapier is too outmatched by Decimation to make a stand (in a group a group setting). So Decimation is not out to assassinate Rapier, and Rapier is not presenting itself to be assassinated, something else was going on that resulted in the clash. One or the other group was defending something that one or the other group was attacking. The fact that one was defending and one was attacking could be entirely coincidental. Decimation could be looking for a single prisoner from a convoy, or to recover some data log from a wrecked station on a planet. Rapier might be defending a convoy not because there are Klingon prisoners, but because one of the freighters is carrying something the Kzintis consider very important (some piece of alien technology recently discovered?) but that the Klingons are unaware of. Or perhaps the Kzintis found something on the planet that they consider to be important. When Decimation arrives it is surprised to find Rapier defending the convoy (or the planet) and the fight is on, both have separate and unintended reasons to fight, both could "win" (the Klingons rescue the prisoner, the Kzintis get away with the freighter carrying the bit of alien technology) even though the Rapier itself is destroyed.

But Rapier is already in a hole that required a casual PF flotilla to balance as is, adding an additional PFS or Survey PF to give the Klingons more of an EW edge is not necessary, if the Klingons need more of an edge just delete one or more of the casual PFs from the Rapier group.

Thomas Mathews:

Divert enough Klingon firepower to trying to wreck freighters and the Rapier will likely survive. Concentrate on trying to take out Rapier and the convoy will likely cross the map. A small freighter moves a maximum of 13 hexes a turn if it uses its battery (can do this once), but typically moves about Speed 10-12 if not doing anything else. It will cross the map in four turns.