I think the thread that was talking about a ship construction manual is gone, here is the link to two manuals (mine and David's) so you can look them over and see what you think. I beleive a SCM would be an incredible seller for ADB, even if it was not official (Stellar Shadows perhaps?). What do you think?

http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/sdoty/

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 03:26 am: Edit

Scott,

The topic is still there. It's s sub-topic under "other proposals."

By Scott Doty (Kody) on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 10:25 am: Edit

John: Thanks, I forgot where it went. Maybe by brining it "up" a little more people will see it.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 06:04 am: Edit

I'm still around, ready for comments. I kinda stopped worrying abougt it for a while because no-one gave me any feedback.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 06:53 am: Edit

one thing to do to evaluate any SCM is to see if it will handle the CL anarkist conversions properly

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 07:39 am: Edit

My SCM is not really designed to handle that. Look at it, and you will see what I mean. Scott's may be OK. The two take radically different approaches.

Scott's is to some extent a BPV calculator with some extra gizmos thrown in. As far as I can see, it does not really attempt to stop potential abuse like adding unrealistic amounts of a single system (exception-weapons and warp are limited). It relies on people wanting to create realistic ships rather than maxed-out ships. Scott may want to comment on this further...

My SCM is more campaign based, and you can design better ships as your tech improves. It also more or less stops abuse in any form - e.g. if you want lots of APR, you find it gets increasingly more expensive. However, it is inevitably complex and I can't see any way to simplify it significantly without allowing people loopholes. Conversions from other's race's ships is currently beyond its capabilities, as a number of rules would have to be introduced to define how technologies mesh - e.g. can race Y maintain shields on a captured race Z ship when Z's shield technology is far superior? Or are shield's reduced? Does race Y get a shield tech bonus for capturing said ship? Suppose I get 10 space from removing the captured ship's heavy weapons, but my replacement heavy weapons take up only 5 space. Can I put more heavy weapons/phasers on, more hull, or am I forbidden to do any more? There are a whole can of worms there.

Scott's system will simply say.... Right - remove the DSRs/Drones and replace with my race's Fusions/HBs/APR and recalculate the BPV! In some ways, you could use Scott's system to calculate the BPV of the ships that come out of my system, although of course, Scott's is a design system in its own right.

By Scott Doty (Kody) on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 08:41 pm: Edit

David:
Your system is excellent for a campaign, but it is quite complex and time consuming to use. I am sure it gets easier with use and familiarity, but for right now it takes time to construct a unit.
My system has one major built-in abuse stopper, BPV! If you want a ship with TRs, shields, PA's, dis dev's, p-gs and plasmas, feel free, but it will cost A LOT! I played around with system once and came up with a "hockey puck", basically an Andro with lots of various weapons and shields. It worked well, but it was a CL for around 500 BPV! It died (quickly) when a few internals started to roll in. Although I am sure someone will find a loophole (and please do, I would love to patch it up), the system makes fairly balanced ships for X BPV. Make a 140 point CA and see what you can do, then match it up to an existing 140 CA and see for yourself.
The end result is with a shipcon system you CAN make your own units and get a "ballpark" BPV, which for many of us is good enough. The addition of an official shipcon system would allow all players to have core rules to go by, facilitating campaigns and being more fun for all.

By Les LeBlanc (Lessss) on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 11:58 pm: Edit

/humour{Grin, isn't kludge working on this?} /end humour

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 07:06 am: Edit

NO!!! Definetly Not!!!

I was crazy enough to take on the V3 Manual. But I ain't this nuts,

I have no intentiopn of getting into this mess. And if I do. Someone call the men with the white suits and big butterfly nets. Cause I've gone completely insane

Even so. I may even try to do my own design system charts. (Left over from Commanders.) on my Website If I ever get it put up.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 08:40 am: Edit

Ok Scott. What do you think of this based on you design system?

FF package base (35BPV, 30 spaces used of max 48)

6 hull
1 lab
1 shtl
1 trac
1 tran
1 probe
1 bridge
1 aux
1 emer
1+1 = 2 btty (+1 BPV)
1+3+2 = 6 APR (+6 BPV) (2 bonus APR for 4 DSR).
2 imp
12 warp

(total 20 power - plenty for a 1/3 MC ship)

shields +30 boxes (+5BPV)
= 26/24/22/22/22/24

Weapons
4 DSR-22 (+16BPV, FH arc)
4 Phas-2 (all FH, 7.5 BPV)
4 Phas-3 (2LS,2RS, + 3.75 BPV)
2 DRN-A (+2BPV) (fast drones, + 8 BPV)

AA turn mode, Breakdown 6 (standard for FF pack)

This is Ok for shock and space limits.

Total BPV 84

Now I have 4 medium range DSR on this ship. OK, it doesn't have the UIM, but that's an option for +5BPV. I can power and fire those DSR while keeping up a good speed (30 with no EW), and thier FH arc and my turn mode makes evasion easy. To boot, I have already paid my BPV for fast drones in the racks.
My shields are excellent for a frigate, and I have plenty of phasers for point defence and short-range knife fighting. If I slow down to overload (still speed 12 if I use BTTY), I can pack a tremendous punch at short range.

Do you think this is too low a BPV for these capabilities? Have I got my sums right?

Oh - and this can take ca.19 internals and be pretty much still dangerous (6 hull, 2APR, 2BTTY, 2WRP, 3 Phasers, control, DSR, Drone, lab) - leaves it with 16 power, 3 phas-2, 3 DSR, 2 Phas-3, and a drone -plenty to fight with.

By Scott Doty (Kody) on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 12:34 pm: Edit

David:
You have esentially made a WYN unit, not a very good one, but a WYN unit nonetheless.
Your power curve is stil awfull for 4 disr, to overload you would need 16/20 units, you would not be doing much else. Not a bad ship, but not the best, there are WYN units that are better. If you really want to look at some optimized ships check out the WYN pocket battleship and other conversions, those are really powerful for their BPV.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 04:36 pm: Edit

The point is - the ship doesn't overload its DSR, and rarely intends to close. It can go 30, fire 4 DSR at R15, doing ca. 8dam, and run away.

I think you may need to revisit the shock rules. Currently, one can have 4HB on a frigate (intending to fire 2/turn so no shock). While this is riduculosly overgunned (for overloading), you make them RF/R and LF/L for a 40% discount overall (20% arcs, 20% overgunned). Given that each HB comes with 1.5 APR free (3BPV), and the reduced price is 4.8BPV, you are effectively paying 1.8BPV/hellbore.
Think of it as a version of the fed DD, coming at lower BPV (I think with some phas-1 RX&FA - note 32.5% discount on RX phasers -50% rear arcs -20% overgunned +37,5% 240 deg), it came out around 74BPV).
Note that fusions, with dble overloads for 7, will generally overgun a frigate with just 2 fusions (assuming there are phasers on the frigate), giving a nice 20% discount to all weapons (but I may have misinterpreted).

You can put enough multi-turn weapons on the ship to make it a shock ship, but never intend to fire them all in one turn, so never shock. There doesn't seem to be any other penalty.

PS I'm still thinking. currently seeing how the frigates pan out. Ought to do some SFB ones, and thought it would be nice to generate some discussion.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 10:26 pm: Edit

20 power with 4 DISR and 2 Drone with only movement cost of 1/3 puts that ship in the same category as the Commander's Edition version of Fed FFB. That ship can arm all 4 DISR and maintain speed 28. The D5 with 31 power can make the same speed arming 4 standards.

That ship breaks a lot of the normal BPV evaluation criteria with thick shields but few internals. I would expect the BPV to be close to 100 with the loadout you have given the frigate (or about 20% more than what you estimate).

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 05:53 am: Edit

BTW scott, a spin with your system *has* given me ideas, particularly over the "size-class pack" concept. I'm beginning to think I could use it to considerably simplify my system.

By Scott Doty (Kody) on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 05:35 pm: Edit

David:
Good point, although I really intended the shock rules to not just be limits that give shock, but in campaign games to provide rules for "standard" units that simply can not be build that have enough weapons to cause shock and maybe only 10% of a fleet can have ships that are "shock" units. The only problem with any limitation is simply that your creativity is stiffled, which is a problem in any "construction" type manual. The little "Fed DD" Hydran is great, but very limited in its capabilites even holding its hellbores, much like a Fed DD, and note a Fed DD has 6 forward firing P-1's, which it CAN use. It is good to test the limits and please keep doing so.
The size class pack concept is useful, if you do use it I would like to see it and maybe post it on the site.

By Scott Doty (Kody) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 09:54 am: Edit

David:
Keep in mind that with my system you really need to make units that do not have shock to keep them as reasonable as possible.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 10:50 am: Edit

Yes, I realised later that effectively you had only put the shock rules in to allow people to do it, and hadn't really attempted to make them abuse-proof at all. I'll admit to avioding the problem with my system by simply not allowing it yet.

I'm not sure packages are workable for my system without a table for each size class of ship. It would work by having a basic pack for each size class, stripped down somewhat (esp in warp) compared to your packs. Buying mass/ hull/ APR/ Warp/ battery/ shields etc. technology then modifies the basic pack, both by EPV/BPV and by the systems contained in the pack.

You would then add on the weapons and extra systems up to your maximum allowable mass.

Problems this has...

1) no incremental increase in cost as you overload your ship with power (most people will try this unless the system stops them).
2) It puts my way of using hull to handle turn modes, breakdown, hull and warp distribution out the window.

I have a number of ideas where my system can be clarified. The Fighter section also needs some modifications in order to be able to make any SFB fighter - currently it can't put a Phas-G on the smae figheter as a heavy weapon (fusions). There are some other semantics as well on drone loadings.

By Scott Doty (Kody) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 07:40 pm: Edit

David:
I do not see a problem with the power additions,they take up space and cost BPV. I did limit warp increases in my system, but that was somewhat arbitrary.
The turn mode thing may or may not be a problem depending on how attached you are to the current system.
Fighters with P-G are a pain as they tend to be very powerful, but if they cost too much are useless. It is a thin line to walk.
You could have a table for each technology level for each basic hull type. It would be easy to read and the "hull packs" would be simple to use.
I do not really care all that much about abuse, people who really want to abuse a system will find a way no matter what, but I still try to make my system as playable as possible. I like the idea of infinite diversity and a good shipcon would allow that for SFB.

By Mark James Hugh Norman (Mnorman) on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 05:26 am: Edit

David:
For may attempt at a fighter system, the Ph-G took the same space as 2 Ph-3s, instead of the Heavy weapons slots. A PH-2, of course took heavy weapons slots (unless on a heavy fighter).
I have begun to come up with a system, which uses a range of packs of various types and then allows a small amount of box adding and box swapping, to produce the final ship. Less flexibility of course, but more likely to produce a balanced ship

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Monday, February 10, 2003 - 10:57 am: Edit

Well, I don't yet have my revised sytem on the computer, but it is pretty much online on my notes.

Improvements include

1) Simplification of turn modes, breakdowns, hull, centre warp, and hull distribution problems.
2) Phaser arcs and heavy weapon hardpoints more fully charaterised.
3) Fighter techs are sorted out, partly using Mark's suggestion.
4) No limit to phasers - the system is now self-limiting (*you* try putting 12 P-1 on your CA!).

Some designs to follow, mainly they can be considered ca ~Y130 ships.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Monday, February 10, 2003 - 11:06 am: Edit

Zin - like DDV (but earlier)

Race technology required = 375

M/C = 1/2, shields 15 all round
Warp-15, Impulse-2, APR-1, Btty-1
5 left, 5 centre, 5 right warp.

Lab-2, Bridge-2, Aux-1, Emer-1
Tran-2, Trac-1, Shtl-2, Exdam-4
Probe-1, Fighter bay-8 (3 shuttle bays total)

Hull- 8 forward and 3 aft.

2 Phas-1, 2 Phas-2, 2 Phas-3,
Drone-F (medium speed, no reloads)
Phaser Arc points -31
(I havn't yet made final decisions over how many arc points are used for each phaser arc).

Damcon 4220, Sensor 6530, Scanner 0149
Breakdown 3-6, Turn mode B
8 marines, 8 deck cres, 14 normal crew.
50 spaces for drones.

costs 143 Economic points

Fighters
2 times phaser-2 FA, speed 12, size 10, DFR 1
6 times phaser-3 FA, speed 12, size 10, 2 drone-I,
DFR 2

phas-2 fighters cost 11 economy, drone fighters 10.
I have not included the cost of drones.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Monday, February 10, 2003 - 11:12 am: Edit

Fed-like police ship

Race technology required = 365

M/C = 1/4, shields 13/11/10/10/10/11
Warp-8, Impulse-1, APR-2, Btty-2
4 left, 4 right warp.

Lab-1, Bridge-1, Aux-1, Emer-1
Tran-1, Trac-1, Shtl-1, Exdam-2
Probe(5)-1,

Hull- 2 forward and 4 aft.

1 Photon-FA, 1 Phas-1, 3 Phas-3,
Phaser Arc points -16

Damcon 220, Sensor 640, Scanner 049
Breakdown 5-6, Turn mode AA
4 marines, 8 normal crew.

costs 70 Economic points

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Monday, February 10, 2003 - 11:16 am: Edit

Klingon-like FF (with no drones)

Race technology required = 320

M/C = 1/3, shields 14/12/11/11/11/12
Warp-10, Impulse-2, APR-3, Btty-2
5 left, 5 right warp.

Lab-2, Bridge-1, Aux-1, Emer-1
Tran-2, Trac-1, Shtl-2, Exdam-3
Probe(5)-1,

Hull- 1 forward and 4 aft.

2 DSR-15-FA, 2 Phas-2, 2 Phas-3,
Phaser Arc points -15

Damcon 2220, Sensor 6420, Scanner 0369
Breakdown 5-6, Turn mode A
4 marines, 8 normal crew.

costs 89.5 Economic points

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Monday, February 10, 2003 - 11:25 am: Edit

hydran - like CVE

Race technology required = 345

M/C = 1/3, shields 16/13/10/8/10/13
Warp-10, Impulse-1, APR-2, Btty-2
10 centre warp.

Lab-1, Bridge-1, Aux-1, Emer-1
Tran-2, Trac-2, Shtl-1, Exdam-3
Probe(5)-1, Fighter bay-6 (2 shuttle bays total)

Hull- 4 forward and 4 aft.

1 Phas-2, 2 Phas-3, 2 Fusion-FA
Phaser Arc points - 12

Damcon 2220, Sensor 6420, Scanner 0369
Breakdown 5-6, Turn mode A
4 marines, 6 deck cres, 11 normal crew.

costs 101 Economic points

Fighters
5 times 2*2charge fusion-FA, 2Phas-3 FA,
speed 12, size 11, DFR 1, cost 15
1 times EW pods, 2Phas-3 FA,
speed 12, size 11, DFR 0, cost 16

Total cost of fighters - 91 Economic points.

(PS this ship *really* grinds to a halt if it has to recharge fighter fusions....).

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Monday, February 10, 2003 - 11:32 am: Edit

Comments welcome. Note that economic points are NOT BPV estimates, although I would like your opinions on ballparking these ship's BPVs.

Note that all but the first race do not have sufficient warp technology to build a ship bigger than an FF that can go speed 31 without paying warp surcharges. The first race had to get the technology in order to have medium-speed drones. It does not, however, have much fancy-drone stuff - only types 1,2,4,5, racks F and A, drone control = sensor max along with the medium speed. No armoured, ECM, etc. etc. drones.