Archive through February 12, 2003
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board: The "X" Files: OLD X2 FOLDER: X2 photons: Archive through February 12, 2003
By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 05:14 pm: Edit

I imagine that X2 will be able to load and move easier than a DN.

You could fast load standards or normal load a 20 point for the same power. Or you could really sink in the power and fast load 16s.

**sigh** I guess it makes little difference 20 or 24. I think 24 will be less fun in the long run. Close, blast and hose will be the Fed. tactic. Something no one else will be able to do.

The Fed. has always been on the edge of being able to pull that off(C+B+H) but the X2 with 24 point OLs can do it with little fear (unless he tries to narrow salvo). If only one hits along with Ph-V fire he will have dealt serious damage (same with 20 pointers) but if two or three hit the enemy is screwed. That extra twelve (over the 20 point OL) will make all the difference. Even with as SIF that twelve will be all meat hits. Those meat hits would come with work anyway but these are basically free at this point, all in the first Alpha strike.

I want the photon to get tougher but I think 24 is too much. 20 is a hard punch, but there are other options that will deal out more damage over time. Twenty point max OL will make you think about your intentions and make the Feds more interesting. I would be OK even with keeping the Fast load maximum at 12. That would really make you think, and make it harder to track the Fed EA.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 06:36 pm: Edit

In the X0 period, 4x16 plus a decent phaser strike will kill most cruisers in the game. Very few races can match that kind of crunch.

In X2, shields will be thicker, batteries will be improved, phasers will be stonger, ships maneuver better. But if 4 X2 photons and a decent phaser strike hit an X2 cruiser, that cruiser should still be trashed. If 3 photons hit, the enemy will be in bad shape, but still able to fight.

So the first question is: Is 4x16 + a phaser strike from medium OL torpedo range still enough to trash an enemy ship?
If not, then neither will 3x24, so going up to 24 won't be a problem.

Second: What will X2 disruptors look like?

If


Then the Fed vs. Klink look a lot more like a mirror match, since both sides have 1 turn weapons.

If
Then the Feds could dance with the Klingons as they can in X1, but also can fight X0 style and pull out for a turn and come back next turn.

If
Then we have the same dynamic as X0 (disruptors fire two shots for every photon), but we have a faster tempo to the battle, except for the phasers. Traditionally, two OL disruptor shots are the equivalent to an OL photon.

If we raise standards to 10 or 12, then we need some increase in the disruptor (either accuracy or damage) to keep the balance between the Klinks and the Feds.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 07:52 pm: Edit

That's why I kinda want the photon to be a definite cut above the disruptor in terms of damage.

X1 kinda blurred the lines a little

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 08:06 pm: Edit

Quote:

Okay, how about this. Leave the number of photons the same, i.e., four on a cruiser. Bump the damage base from 8 to 10, with a max of 15 point, fast load overloads. However, you can have the option of 20 point 2=turn overloads if you want them. Use 1X hit charts. That gives a modest damage incrase overall, a better fast-load damage maximum than 1X, but still retains the photon "flavor" of needing 2 turns to fully overload it.



I don't think a 4/3 increase in damage is enough to make people even consider going to two turn armimg. Now 3/2 might so if we limit the Photon to 14 points in Fastload ( still and improvement over X1 ) and have said, 20 point limit, then we may have a go-er...I'ld still like to have overload Proxies to copensate for the EW rich enviroments.

Quote:

Note: with the 20 point OL a rule should be added the restricts the maximum one turn power INput to 6 energy. This is so that on an off turn we don't see players putting in 8 power the racing in with only 2 in each photon ready to fire 20 point OLs.



Hard to justify because the 16 point fastload took 8 points of power in the first turn...If we put in a 6.5 Warp Power or more creates an "unholdable" warhead then that'ld be okay, so you couldn't build a 20 pointers as 8+2 but you could as 2+8 ( even though you can't hold it, but a Photon of 6+4 would be 20 points and could be held)...I wonder if that would be good for the game!?!

Quote:

24 point OLs give the Fed a crunch power that will defeat any GW or X1 on the attack turn. How can that not break the game (given SVCs guide lines).


To get four 24 point Photons to hit you really need to be at R1...and you'll do this magic 96 points of damage.
If you take a Kzinti CS amd move to R1, you can dish-out 96 points of drone damage with your disruptors and having a 25/36 chancce of deal an additional 20.
Nobody says the Kzinti CS is broken...and the CS pays less power to do it.

Quote:

24-point overloads will devestate one ship, true, but the damage is equivalent to what's dealt by a Fed DN and DN's do not break the game.

SVC's guideline was that equal BPVs of X2,X1,GW could fight as equals, not that X2 not be able to fry a hull with one shot.

If we can give a 24-pt OL photon ship a BPV that plays nice with X1 and GW and that BPV is not excessive, we're good.


That's my thinking too.

Quote:

20 is a hard punch, but there are other options that will deal out more damage over time. Twenty point max OL will make you think about your intentions and make the Feds more interesting. I would be OK even with keeping the Fast load maximum at 12. That would really make you think, and make it harder to track the Fed EA.


Sounds like my first Proposal, 12 on the first, 20 on the second and 24 on the third.

Quote:

In the X0 period, 4x16 plus a decent phaser strike will kill most cruisers in the game. Very few races can match that kind of crunch.


Not really.
In an R1 oblque you'll deal up 64 points of damage with the photons and another 22 with the Phasers...If the enemy has say ( weak cruiser sheild #2 ) 22 points of shield and 3 BTTYs ( guess I must be using a D6 ) and say 1 allocated S.S.Reo, then it'll only take 60 points of internal damage BUT it has 72 boxes insided the outline ( and will undoublty take a few hits to tracks outside of the outline ).
That's only 5/6 of the SSD boxes ( inside the outline ) gone and we are taking about one of the weakest cruisers, the D6.
Fried YES, Killed NO.

Since Sheilds will be 33-100% stronger than MY sheilds and the Sheild 7 due to the ASIF, shall be 80+% more than a MY CA, we won't actually be making vessels KILLED through giving the Photons a 50% increase in damage.

Quote:

So the first question is: Is 4x16 + a phaser strike from medium OL torpedo range still enough to trash an enemy ship?
If not, then neither will 3x24, so going up to 24 won't be a problem.


Okay, I assumed that we'll either get Caps-to-SSReo and 50 box sheilds on a cruiser or 60 Box sheilds on a cruiser and either a cruiser shall have four 5 point BTTYs or five 4 Point BTTYs.
Since Caps can hold 36 power ( 12 tripple caps ) and we'ld like to fire 8 of them at the enemy ) we can say we avoided 24 damage and we skipp another 20 with the BTTYs and take the rest on the sheild for 20 points of actual sheild damage against our 50 box sheild.
If we have the 60 box sheild then we take 44 points of actual sheild damage against our 60 box sheild ( leaving us with 16 ).
Even if these ships had 40 box sheilds (like an X1), they could take the full blast of the four 16 point photons.
If we move to three 24 point hits then we'ld take a further 12 points of damage to our sheilds, which in both projected designs would still fail to breach the Sheilding.
24 Pointers are not going to smash X2s, and X1 and GW really should be smashed by X2, and a BB should stand pu to four 24 pointers quite well.
A CVA group will stand up to 24 pointers very well.

Quote:

Second: What will X2 disruptors look like?

If

•X2 disruptors fire once a turn,
•1-turn photons do 16 ,
•2-turn OL stay at 16

6 UIM O/L Disruptor Shots at R8 will generate 30 points of damage every turn on average.
Four 16 point R8 overloads will generate 32 points of damage every turn.
What you're really saying is that the two turn becomes redundant, and thus we get bad turn mode, all Ph-5 Klingons.

Then the Fed vs. Klink look a lot more like a mirror match, since both sides have 1 turn weapons.


If
•X2 disruptors fire once a turn, (including a capacitor that allows 2 standards or 1 OL)
•1-turn photons do 12,
•2 turn photons do 24
6UIM R8 Diruptor Overloads will be 30 points of damage ( 4 will be 23.33' ) and the Photons will be 24 points every turn or 48 points every other round...which isn't such a bad situation because the ammount they are falling short by is about the same amount as they over shoot by when switching to two turns.

A Pair of Disruptor shots at range should be consider to do 3 points of damage ( 50-50 to hit and 2 shots, and about 3 damage ) so we'ld get 3 damage by the Klingon on the off turn ( likely on a different sheild ) and 6 damage 5/6 of the time on the one turn.
I'm still not sure if the 24 point photon is that much ahead, it depends on if we claw back to 4 or stay at 6 Diruptors.

Then the Feds could dance with the Klingons as they can in X1, but also can fight X0 style and pull out for a turn and come back next turn.


If
•X2 disruptors fire two OLs a turn, (with or without a capacitor) Or for that matter a double damage Disruptor HyperOverload.
•1 turn photons do 16,
•2 turn photons do 16

Then we have the same dynamic as X0 (disruptors fire two shots for every photon), but we have a faster tempo to the battle, except for the phasers. Traditionally, two OL disruptor shots are the equivalent to an OL photon.
Four 16 pointers at R8 will do 32 points of damage, 6 UIM Overloaded Double shot Disruptors will do 60 points of damage ( 40 if you drop back to 4 Disruptors).
We'ld be putting the disruptor at quite an advantage, unless 1) we make it damned near impossible to get both Disrutor shots to fire, and we drop back to 4 disruptors...4 standard disruptor shots at R15 plus 4 O/L UIM Disruptors @ R8 should inflict 28 points of damage which comes out nicely against the 32 of the Feds, but the feds are cruicified if the Klingons have 6 Disruptors.


Not really. See in quotes.

We need to figure out how many Disruptors the Klingon Cruiser will have before we make a call about how powerful the Photon will be....perhaps the YIS205s will have 4 and the YIS225s will have 6.

Quote:

If we raise standards to 10 or 12, then we need some increase in the disruptor (either accuracy or damage) to keep the balance between the Klinks and the Feds.


Advanced UIM and Advanced Defracs. +2 to the die roll for each, that should make the Disruptors counter the dreaded High end Proxi.
We could even say the AUIM works in overload range but has one of the following problems.
• A 32 Impulse burn out, no fire period.
• No ability to Fire greater than 1-5 ( although it'll counter-act EW effects to still apply the +2 bonus so as to stay at 1-5.
• Suicide Fusion beam, like destruction of the disruptor(s) depending on what playtest says about killing one or more of the disruptors.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 08:10 pm: Edit

Quote:

That's why I kinda want the photon to be a definite cut above the disruptor in terms of damage.

X1 kinda blurred the lines a little



Yeah, 30 points every turn ( for at least 3 turns ) Vs 24 points every turn, at R8.

The Klingons actually become the real heavy hitters of the galaxcy.

By Shannon Nichols (Scoot) on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 08:10 pm: Edit

Go to a 1 or 2 turn arming cycle.
The 1 turn cycle would generate 2pts damage per point of arming energy. Be limited to a max 6pts of arming energy a turn. Have a max range of 15 hexes, and a overload range of 8 hexes.
The 2 turn cycle would generate 3pts damage per point of arming energy. Be limited to a max of 4pts of added arming energy a turn. Have a max range of 40 hexes, and a 10-12 hex overload range.
When starting to arm a torpedo it must be assigned as either a 1 or 2 cycle arming torpedo, this can not be changed later.
Any 2 cycle torpedo adding more than 2pts of energy a turn would be a overloaded torpedo.
1 or 2 cycle torpedo can have a max arming energy of 8pts.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 08:26 pm: Edit

Shannon,

What we're kicking around right now is a 16/X

Where 16 is the max fastload damage and either 20 or 24 is the max 2-turn.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 08:36 pm: Edit

24 is too much, IMHO. Yes, a 0X DN can dish that out, too, but it has to work harder at it, and can't follow it up with another 64 points the following round.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 08:38 pm: Edit

J.T.:


No we're not.

You might be trying to justify a 16 point Fastload through the sujestion of the Power Disruptors.

The rest of us are kicking around X2 Photon Designs.


.


A 3:1 damage to power ratio will generate ( over 2 turns ) a 24 point warhead and won't break the bank to do it.
It'ld also generate 12 point standards, which would by default generate a 6 point Proxies, but these would take two turns to arm.


I'm, okay with the 3:1 ratio for a two turn-er so long as we don't need to stipulate the arming cycle during EA.
I think it'ld be kinda neat if standard Fed practise was to flood 6 points into fastloads ( for 12 pointers ) and if a firing opportunity didn't present it'self, to then simply top them off with 2 points ( of warp ) and have ready the 24 point warheads that'll really smash things.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 09:04 pm: Edit

MJC,

The photon was always meant to be a serious crunch weapon. Perhaps a 20-point photon preserves that.

A 24-pt photon is worth consideration whether using a 2:1 or 3:1 damage:energy ratio.

The 3:1 is a separate thought and also worth consideration, but I'm not arcturan megaleech-grade attached to either.

Either way, photon damage (16 vs. 20 vs. 24) is the topic of discussion.

By Shannon Nichols (Scoot) on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 09:16 pm: Edit

24point overloads give you the same one turn fire power as a DN or BCHj. Now is that to much when you have ships that have shield strengths of general war dreadnoughts and battleships.
Also people talk about how the game is won or lost in the EA phase. This makes the feds have to think.
Also it is being assummed that shields of 2x ships will be similar to x1, maybe maybe not.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 09:30 pm: Edit

When we look at the defenses over an X1.

The same or possibly 4 or 5 point BTTYs.
Better or the Same sheilding.
An ASIF to make the same or larger sheild 7 of the vessel, 80+% bigger.
Possibly Caps-to-SSReo.

Since the R8 effect of the CX was 24 points every turn and the DX was 30 ( a 25% increase ), it seems to me that 50% increase in the offensive power of the Photon would indeed set the things to right and even a 100% increase wouldn't be that much of a game breaker.
33-66% increase in sheilds.
A completely new ability.
A 33-66% increase in BTTY
A 80+% increase in sheild 7

I think a 50% increase in damage output will be of little effect.

Quote:

Also people talk about how the game is won or lost in the EA phase. This makes the feds have to think.


Well choosing between a 16 point Fastload now or arming a 12 point fastload now but holding in reserve the ability to convert that with 2 points of warp next turn into a 24 point warhead; now that requires thinking during E.A.!

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 10:57 pm: Edit

What is SSReo?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 11:33 pm: Edit

Specific Shield Reinforcement.

The reinforcing steel inside reinforced concrete is generally refered to as Reo, so hence S.S.Reo or SSReo.

By Shannon Nichols (Scoot) on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 11:50 pm: Edit

I think there is a misunstanding about the arming cycles in my post. If you fast load a torpedo on a turn and hold it to a later turn. Your able to up load it to 8pts of power. But you will only get 16pts of damage. If you fast load as a 8pt warhead and dont overloaded you get a 15 hex range torpedo when you do fire it, no matter now long its been held.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 02:31 am: Edit

No misunderstanding.

By Aaron Gimblet (Marcus) on Wednesday, February 12, 2003 - 03:43 am: Edit

Is there a KISS solution available? Id like to see Feds use their two turn Photon.. maybe leave the hotloads as they were in X1, and have fed research have gone into improving the potential of the Photon as the two-turn, one-shot shipwrecker that it was in Y140... Since the X1 improvement for the photon was the fairly impressive semi-OL fastload, how about R10 OLs (since were discussing that for all heavies) X1 Fastloads, and a snazzy 20 pt OL. If we limit them to X1 Fastloads, then a 20 point 2-turn OL will still be a tempting use, at least for the first shot.

Then again, maybe we just take away the fastloads as a failed development (say the navies never could get them reliable enough, and in the 'peacetime' enviorment, without the throw-it-all-at-them mentality of an ongoing major war, they stop enginnering in such a dangerous capability) and give them fairly 12 point normals and 24 point OLs...

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, February 12, 2003 - 08:02 am: Edit

Almost all the Photon solutions stay under the KISS dictum, it's getting ones that everyone is willing to hold with that's the problem.

Personnaly I'ld rather keep fast loads at 12 and then have the Fully overloaded Torp got to 24, so as to make the Photon a two turn weapon again.
And then solve the EW problem / ECM drone problem with Proxi Overloads.

But a lot of people think that's to powerful...I wonder how they'll feel about focusing the entire damage of a hellbore onto one sheild!?!

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, February 12, 2003 - 03:40 pm: Edit

Too powerful also, but that's off-topic here. :)

I have no problem with 12/24 photons. I tend to like 16/24 but that's nothing I'm attached to.

the one change I might make is allow the 12-point overloads to be held over rather than use/lose as is the case with X1.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, February 12, 2003 - 04:54 pm: Edit

If that's the group concensus, I can live with it, though personally I'd rather see 16 point fast loads that can be held, and max 20 point overloads that MUST be done over two turns.

By Aaron Gimblet (Marcus) on Wednesday, February 12, 2003 - 04:58 pm: Edit

Mike, the question is 'would people bother to plan and play a two-turn fed' if the increase in yeild is only 4 points per torp. No doubt tactics would exist, and it would occur on occasion.. but given access to 16 point loads every turn, I dont see myself using 20 point loads every other turn very often.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, February 12, 2003 - 06:03 pm: Edit

I can see that; I'm just leary of 24 point photons, and would prefer a cap of 20. Maybe 12 points in one turn (can be held) and 20 over two turns might induce players to use two turn arming.

By Aaron Gimblet (Marcus) on Wednesday, February 12, 2003 - 06:48 pm: Edit

Nice thing about a 12/20 Photon is then we dont have to jazz everyone elses weapons very much...

down side of a 12/20 Photon is we dont get to jazz everyone elses weapons very much. ~G~

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, February 12, 2003 - 07:34 pm: Edit

Quote:

the one change I might make is allow the 12-point overloads to be held over rather than use/lose as is the case with X1.


That's odd?
You are talking about XE4.5?
I wonder how a 12 point Photon can be finished off as a 16 point two turner if it can not be held?


Quote:

If that's the group concensus, I can live with it, though personally I'd rather see 16 point fast loads that can be held, and max 20 point overloads that MUST be done over two turns.


And why exactly would you want that?

I could see, 12 point fastloads that can be held coupled with 16 point fastloads that can't and 24 point two turn shots...
BUT allowing 16 point rapid overloads that can be held and 20 point overloads is tantamount to saying here, have 16 point fastload. Here have a one turn weapon.
You need a reason to go from one turn to two turns and since a Ph-5 will do 3.5 points of damage at R8 and you have more Ph-5s than your Phot-torps, then you come out measurably better off making R8 shots every turn with 16 point fastloads than you do by spending every other turn out of range and re-arming.

16 point fastloads with a 20 point two turn arming basically is a nice little Disruoptor holding rule which basically means you can fire the overloaded disruptor for 2 points of power.
The new Photon rule means that you can just build 16 point fastloads and hold it with 2 points of power that happens to be warp and get a nice little bonus of firing for 2 warp per tube ( Bargain) plus a little bonus of 4 points of damage per turbe extra.

Now ask yourself, how often does the X1 Klingon Hold his Disruptors!?!


Quote:

Mike, the question is 'would people bother to plan and play a two-turn fed' if the increase in yeild is only 4 points per torp. No doubt tactics would exist, and it would occur on occasion.. but given access to 16 point loads every turn, I dont see myself using 20 point loads every other turn very often.


Yup, see above.


Quote:

I can see that; I'm just leary of 24 point photons, and would prefer a cap of 20. Maybe 12 points in one turn (can be held) and 20 over two turns might induce players to use two turn arming.


Also very do-able.
Personnally I don't see the 24 point Phot-torp as being a problem.
A 20 point warhead in a single hit is it's own 18 point mizia.
A 24 point warhead in a single hit is it's own 18 point mizia.
So there's not much difference there.
4 photons of 20 points is an 80 point hit and 4 of 24 points is a 96 point hit. The difference is minimal, 16 points more internal damage on top of the alpha strike is not going to make a difference to the loses of weapons...not against another X2 or a DNX.

It really depends on what happens with other heavies, it they go up dramatically ( like inflicting all the damage of a hellbore onto one shield ) then the Photon should probably go up dramtically aswell but if the other heavy weapon increases are mild, then the Photon should only go up to 20, but then the fastload should stay at 12.


Quote:

Nice thing about a 12/20 Photon is then we dont have to jazz everyone elses weapons very much...

down side of a 12/20 Photon is we dont get to jazz everyone elses weapons very much. ~G~


Preach it brother!

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, February 12, 2003 - 07:46 pm: Edit

Any combintion or 12-16/20-24 works for me, but my least-favorite option would be 16/20

And MJC, yes, you can't hold an overloaded fastload in X1. It's the tradeoff for getting rid of the missfire table.

You can hold a 8-point fast-standard load however.

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