Straight siege will be tricky. The Hydrans have enough phasers to zap a full set of range 15 EPT's without using the Ph-IV.

If you're prepared for a LONG fight, won't end early due to stalemate, have a passive opponent and are more concerned with winning this fight than ever getting to play your opponent again attrition may be an option - close to 19, bolt at fighters for two 1/6 chances of a kill, pull back out, repair your shield damage, repeat until launched torps can get hits. Keep your fighters onboard until ready to assault since Hellbores are better at popping fighters than plasma bolts are.

You're outgunned bolting from range 10 - you'll have one R, two S and an F for about 30 average damage; he won't be able to fire until after you do (otherwise you can get closer once he's empty) but the fusions alone outgun you almost 2:1 at that range.

It's a hard fight. You have similar force but a bad racial matchup. To win you'll need to take advantage of your mobility and timing - if you can get him to fire early in a turn and then run in for a closer launch you have a chance. In a full on campaign where I got to use the ships again I'd likely withdraw to try another day.

By Douglas Jordan (Djordan) on Thursday, February 25, 2010 - 10:47 am: Edit

Well as the scenarios haven't been finalized yet, it looks like I may have to rearrange my forces. The more I look at it and hypothesize what defending ships may be there, the more I realize I'm going to need a bigger force. Thanks for the help.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Thursday, February 25, 2010 - 04:10 pm: Edit

Do you have the option to repick your forces? I wouldn't emphasise either plasma fighters or stock drones against Hydrans.

If just redeploying, the general principle of assaulting hard points applies - either bring enough to do the job or don't go.

By Kerry E Mullan (Nomad17) on Thursday, February 25, 2010 - 04:19 pm: Edit

I mean if going just rommie a pair of firehawk K's with a WE backer do pretty well. Enough p1's to get an OK R15 shot on the ftrs as well launching envelopers can make it pretty hard to avoid the R15 incoming torps, especially if you can get sabots you can launch from range 13 and get the torp to hit with R10 warhead str.

A Batt only has so many weasels and from R13 it'll take 2-3 turns to get through a shield.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, February 25, 2010 - 04:30 pm: Edit

Then bring a kicker to cover possible defneding ships. Another WE or two would be recommended.

You don't kill bases, you overkill them if you have the ability.

By Douglas Jordan (Djordan) on Thursday, February 25, 2010 - 04:35 pm: Edit

I am going to post over in the Klingon Post as it seems more appropriate. Thanks all so far.

By Roch Chartrand (Rochc) on Monday, June 13, 2011 - 09:38 pm: Edit

Hi,

I am currently setting up a battle in Y162 that will involve the following units:
My fleet is composed of:
Kzinty 1 CC, 3 DD and 1 FH, drone load out is a mix of T-II-ECM, T-II and T-V.

Against:
Klingon 1 C6, 1 LD5 and 2 E3.

BPV wise the two fleet are fairly equal, but I am a medium/marginal player and tend to get beat more often that I win against this perticular opponent. Would I need to be doing fancy flying and put out outstanding rules trick to get a victory? Because I have the option of redeploying my CC and 1 DD into and other scenario where I could overwelm is force.

Thanks for commenting.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - 02:37 pm: Edit

This is a campaign, yes? If so, then your question is a strategic question, not a tactical one. Your decision should fit within a larger strategic situation and your plan for dealing with it.

You actually have three choices:

1. Move the CC and DD

2. Stay and fight: Play for all the marbles

3. Stay and fight: Attrition (fight expecting to eventually concede the battle to him but try to kill a unit or two of his while denying him the chance to kill any of yours)

If you play this for all the marbles, you WILL need to take a bite out of that DN ASAP. You must expect to take losses too. Give the skill difference between you two, this is probably a mistake unless his fleet has some kind of identifiable and exploitable weakeness. I don't see one.

The attrition option would boil down to killing an E3 or two then trying to withdraw with all your forces in a repairable state of damage. Only do this if you can afford to let him win.

The transfer essentially gives you the option to turn two battles that are in varying degrees of doubt to two easy wins: one for you and one for him.

How likely are you to win that other battle as-is?

Will he be able to capitalize on his win better than you can capitalize on yours?

If he gets too much benefit out of his win, it might be worth fighting out even if you expect to lose. The attrition option might work out as the best strategic choice here. I don't know enough to really say with authority.

Who produces more ships? You can lose battles and win a war of attrition if you can produce units faster than he can kill them and he *can't* produce units faster than you are killing his, even if he's killing more than you.

By Roch Chartrand (Rochc) on Wednesday, June 15, 2011 - 02:07 pm: Edit

John,

Thanks for the comments. Option 2 is unlikely to append. For option 3 kind of scare me a bit because I never was able/manage the leave a combat zone against this opponent before! Definitly we do capitalize on our victory, more Bpv you make in this year set determine the quantity of new ship added for the next year set.

Strategicly speaking is etheir I lose 2 DD & FH to is C6 in this zone or 2 CL to 2 of is D6 in and other zone. I think moving my CC & DD will will insure a better change of victory in an other zone.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Friday, August 05, 2011 - 05:07 am: Edit

Ok.
Y150, Kzinti FF vs Klingon E4.

Use The Duel scenario as setup.

How do you beat the Klink?

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, May 18, 2013 - 11:28 am: Edit

So over in the F+E discussion forum, folks are hashing out the F+E stats for the Kzinti CS during the Four Powers War/Middle Years era (say, y159). A question of whether or not the CS should have the same stats as the D6 (which I totally maintain is a sound decision) came up, and in the name of defending that, I figured I'd post here.

To compare the ships:
Kzinti CS:

Shields 24-22-22-22 (134 total)
33 power, +5 batteries
2xDISR (R30), 2xP1, 10xP3, 4xA rack
97 total internals
About 122 BPV including speed 12 drones.

D6:
Shields 30-22-15-13 (117 total)
37 power +3 batteries
4x DISR (R22), 7xP2, 2xF racks
86 total internals
About 116 BPV including speed 12 drones.

Like most match ups in SFB, how things go depend completely on the context of the battle--i.e. if they are on an open map and the D6 can just stay at long range and snipe with 4 disruptors indefinitely (although the Kzinti can fire from longer range with its 2 Range 30's...), the D6 has an advantage. But on a closed map, or in a fight where there is an actual fixed objective (convoy/base/planet/whatever), the CS is eventually going to catch up to the D6 and savage it.

If the CS can catch and tractor the D6 (which isn't certain, no, but certainly a viable possibility even with the significant power differential), the D6 can't possibly deal with 4 drones on the map, followed by 3 or 4 heavy drones followed by a possible SP launch. Again, not at all a certain thing, but under favorable situations, the CS is actually quite effective against a D6 in that time frame (i.e. the era of the Four Powers War/Middle Years).

By David Zimdars (Zimdarsdavid) on Saturday, May 18, 2013 - 02:28 pm: Edit

The CS is a profoundly less capable ship than the D6.

It has very important weaknesses:

The DISR and P1 are LF+L, and RF+R NOT FA.

It only has 27 warp. It can only go 28!

But compare the R8 direct fire power in pure oblique.

D6 = 4 old disr + 5p2 can easily get 24-30 pts which cracks the CS shields. If the D6 saber dances slower, things get more gruesome. And 8 and 12 speed drones are not that hard to drive around for the D6. Seriously.

CS = 1 old disc, 1 p1 and 6p3. What is that, like 9 points? Seriously.

What the D6 has to remember, is that it has a huge firepower advantage outside of R3, even if it doesn't fire all 4 disr each turn. Its OK to fire 2.

And remember, these are A racks. 4 drones! If the D6 can stretch things just a little bit, 4 drones wont matter anymore.

I think you are looking at the CS through rose colored glasses.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Saturday, May 18, 2013 - 03:00 pm: Edit

The CS won't be launching drones like it would in a tournament game because they're slow and have only 2 rounds endurance, so it probably won't run out quickly. It has enough batteries to play anchor games or snipe with disruptors if it's not going to get an anchor. The Klingon has only 2 shuttles and F racks so it's rather constrained in a knife fight.

To do 24-30 outside R3 the Klingon has to get a bit ucky and put 16 power into OLs. This leaves him going slowly (max 17 moves), so the Kzinti has a pretty good chance of an overrun and tractor, as well as leaving the Klink with only 2 P2s for drone defence. Sure, the Klinok might crack a shield, but this is a Kzinti so it can take a beating and still kill you very dead.

It really comes down to the map: open=Klingon win, closed=Kzinti advantage.

By David Zimdars (Zimdarsdavid) on Saturday, May 18, 2013 - 03:09 pm: Edit

>The CS won't be launching drones like it would in a tournament >game because they're slow and have only 2 rounds endurance, >so it probably won't run out quickly. It has enough batteries to >play anchor games or snipe with disruptors if it's not going to >get an anchor. The Klingon has only 2 shuttles and F racks so >t's rather constrained in a knife fight.

If the CS doesn't launch any drones, and it might not, it in no way constrains the movement of the D6. The D6 can pick the range.

>To do 24-30 outside R3 the Klingon has to get a bit ucky and >put 16 power into OLs. This leaves him going slowly (max 17 >moves), so the Kzinti has a pretty good chance of an overrun >and tractor, as well as leaving the Klink with only 2 P2s for >drone defence. Sure, the Klinok might crack a shield, but this is >a Kzinti so it can take a beating and still kill you very dead.

The Klingon can look for a hack and slash; amongst other tactics, which utilize his superior DF but minimize the chance of going too slow to escape.

>It really comes down to the map: open=Klingon win, >closed=Kzinti advantage.

I'm really not seeing the Kzinti having any advantage just because a D6 is restricted to the typical tournament size map.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, May 18, 2013 - 03:50 pm: Edit

David wrote:
>>The CS is a profoundly less capable ship than the D6.>>

It really isn't that much.

>>It has very important weaknesses:

The DISR and P1 are LF+L, and RF+R NOT FA.>>

Which doesn't really matter so much at either long range or range 1.

>>It only has 27 warp. It can only go 28!>>

Sure?

>>But compare the R8 direct fire power in pure oblique. >>

Ok.

>>D6 = 4 old disr + 5p2 can easily get 24-30 pts which cracks the CS shields.>>

Sure. And the ship is slow at that point. And the Kzinti loses a shield and catches up.

>> If the D6 saber dances slower, things get more gruesome. And 8 and 12 speed drones are not that hard to drive around for the D6. Seriously.>>

If it saber dances slowly, the Kzinti catches up.

>>CS = 1 old disc, 1 p1 and 6p3. What is that, like 9 points? Seriously.>>

The Kzinti isn't firing at long range (well, a disruptor or two at range 15+ isn't out of the realm of reason). It is going fast and catching the Klingon.

>>What the D6 has to remember, is that it has a huge firepower advantage outside of R3, even if it doesn't fire all 4 disr each turn. Its OK to fire 2. >>

Sure. And then it is getting caught as it turns off.

>>And remember, these are A racks. 4 drones! If the D6 can stretch things just a little bit, 4 drones wont matter anymore.>>

You launch 4 on impulse 25 at the end of a turn where it looks like you might catch him. Then launch 4 more after you are at R1 and it is in tractor.

>>I think you are looking at the CS through rose colored glasses.>>

Sure.

If the map is closed (i.e. there is an actual objective that limits the ability to just run around at long range), the Kzinti is not unlikely to catch the D6, tractor it, and kill it. That's how these things work. Will it *always* work? No. but that is the basic theory.

On a closed map, (with, say, EW), the Kzinti can move, say, 24 hexes and have some EW up (24 moves, 4 for the ship, 5 EW). It goes forward on the first turn. The D6 is unlikely to get that good of a shot, and probably at a negative shift. The next turn, the Kzinti can corner the D6. That's a game.

>>The Klingon can look for a hack and slash; amongst other tactics, which utilize his superior DF but minimize the chance of going too slow to escape. >>

The D6 "hack and slash" consists of 3xP2 in most arcs. At range 3. That puts it in serious danger of getting caught.

>>I'm really not seeing the Kzinti having any advantage just because a D6 is restricted to the typical tournament size map.>>

The Kzinti plays like a seeking weapon. It goes fast. It has more batteries for tractors. At R1 with a tractor, launching 4 armored heavy drones is a death sentence for the D6. Will this always happen? Of course not. But it isn't remotely impossible. And is a winning play.

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar2) on Saturday, May 18, 2013 - 06:56 pm: Edit

in which case, putting both at 7-8 isn't stretching things as it depends on who makes the larger mistake in a one-on-onoe duel...

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, May 18, 2013 - 07:19 pm: Edit

Exactly. The CS as a 7-8/4 in F+E (i.e. the same as a D6) seems completely reasonable.

Is the CS going to win all the time? Of course not. But in fights where there is an objective other than "fly around in open space until someone dies", the CS is going to do just fine vs a D6. Is there a planet to attack/defend? A convoy? A base? Something? Then the CS is a viable and reasonable opponent vs the D6.

By Ed Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Saturday, May 18, 2013 - 07:33 pm: Edit

Another thing to remember in this match up is position, everytime the Klingon turns away he presents his rear shields to the Kzin disrs. At 13 the Kzin over a period of time does not need 4 like the Klingon does.

By Mike Kenyon (Mikek) on Monday, May 20, 2013 - 12:51 pm: Edit

Disruptor. To point, you get one assuming your maintaining direction. You have the option to get the second at the cost (likely) of range as you need to turn to bring it to bear.

From memory, the CS has a slightly better battery situation then the D6 and wins the labs battle. Minor points, but helpful in trying to even out a situation I'd otherwise give the Klingon's way most days.

By Chris Upson (Misanthropope) on Monday, May 20, 2013 - 11:42 pm: Edit

the D6 is two wretched phaser 2s away from having 8 attack factors. so the CS can be somewhat weaker without forfeiting a claim on having 7 AF itself.

the head-to-head engagement is a treacherous way to measure the CS because 1) ships don't act the same way in duels as in squadron or fleet engagements and 2) obviously a duel is determined as much by defensive as offensive capability.

By David Zimdars (Zimdarsdavid) on Tuesday, May 21, 2013 - 10:13 am: Edit

A squadron of 3D6 which reaches range 8 to a squadron of 3CS can reasonably expect to dish out 62+ with taking about 18 in return. At R4 the ratio is 84+/28+ or so. Now if the D6s get in close and keep fighting, then if the Kzin anchor one D6, and maybe if they don't but, certainly if they do, that D6 is probably dead.

ECM will have a huge impact. If the Kzin can turtle and use a lot of ECM an reinforcement, it might be kind of nasty for the Klingons to dig them out. On the other hand, the CS does not have a lot of power, and turtling will give away the chase and the anchor if the Klingons don't get in close.

There are a lot of variables here: for example, are the Kzin attacking the Klingons or vice versa, can the Kzin somehow corner the Klingons (and is a fixed map a realistic limitation).

I still think, on the balance of most kind of fights the D6 has it over the CS.

By Josh Driscol (Gfb) on Tuesday, May 21, 2013 - 01:21 pm: Edit

I would be happy to take the 3CS squadron and give your Klingon forehead a JJ Abrams style Klingon makeover (flattened and varnished).

I think the 3CS's are going to be competitive with the D6's in SFB. If a D6 does get anchored its more than likely dead meat. The Kzinti CS's can launch up to 24 drones over a turn break, many more if you consider scatter packs and the potential for MRS shuttles and ATG guidance to control extra drones.

I bet the average damage figures your using are based on there being no shift for either side. If the D6's are arming all there disruptors there should be a shift in favor of the Kzinti.

A 1 shift lowers the disruptor to hit down to 50 percent, and on average a point of power fired as a phaser 2 will do 1.17 damage per shot with a 1 shift, if the shift goes to 2 it drops to 0.67 damage per power at range 5-8. So the disruptor overloads would do an average of 36 at range 5-8 and 15 phaser 2's would probably add 17-18 more for 53-54 total with a 1 shift. On any side or rear shield that's 31-32 internal damage before reinforcement. That wont knock a CS out of the fight but it will leave a nice big dent and drop its speed or EW on future turns.

Anything over a 1 shift and the Kzinti can wade through all the Klingon squadron can dish out at about 2x the speed of the Klingons, all they need to do is not arm any disruptors max ECM and a point of warp in contingent EM or maybe tractor but to guarantee a 2 shift you need EM.

That leaves the CS's with 22 energy for movement. With the 2 shift the D6's overloads would on average hit for 24 from range 5-8 and the phaser 2's add only 10 more. So depending on how its flown the CS may not have the big power problems everyone says it does. Its speed is limited but that shouldn't make as big a difference fighting Klingons as it would fighting a plasma empire.

The D6 squadron would have to pay for 4 overloads each, and I'm assuming the Klingons go with max ECCM that leaves only 11 energy for movement which is not enough to avoid the overrun.

And with max ECM and moving erratically I think the shift will be at least 2. Without a scout the only way to increase the Klingons ECCM further is an MRS shuttle or legendary officer.

The Klingon D6 doesn't seem to be able to overload all 4 disruptors and power ECCM and still be able to get away from the speed 12 drones. Its probably better off at r15 with 4 standards, but even then its only capable of speed 19 and the Kzinti CS's will be able to close in even if its just a few hexes a turn.

So I think to have them valued equally in F&E combat power is reasonable, duels and squadron battles between CS's and D6's should be competitive.

The Kzinti just needs to remember that his heavy weapons are the drones and that if he charges disruptors too early he probably wont have the speed to catch the Klingons or EW to survive there disruptor fire.

By Mike Kenyon (Mikek) on Tuesday, May 21, 2013 - 01:52 pm: Edit

All of what follows presumes an floating map.

First of all, regardless of your launch rate, you cannot actually control that many drones. In 165, you have 80% speed 12 drones at best. You're not getting to the point where ATG (50% max) is going to make a hill's beans worth of difference. So, you might have 3 spaces of speed 20 drones per ship and 8 spaces of ATG drones. If the Klingon never gets within 8 hexes of you, the ATG is irrelevant.

If the Klingon put 12 disruptors into a CS per turn from R22, using UIM, 3D6 Klingon gets 16 points of damage per turn, on average the Kzinti is going to get 3, while maintaining speed 25 and using their drones offensively on a following Kzinti. Far more effective if the Klingon retrograds, but you can do a sweep in the 15-22 range bracket and never have the CS have a chance to catch up.

If the Klingons drop powering 3 of their 12 disruptors, they can fire everything while going the Kzinti's max speed.

At that range, ATG, drones in general, etc, just do not matter. The Klingon will take out the Kzinti.

On a fixed map, the Kzinti will eventually drive you into a corner and mug you. WWs, etc. will give the Klingon a better than even shot at those ranges, however.

By Josh Driscol (Gfb) on Tuesday, May 21, 2013 - 02:04 pm: Edit

The original question was regarding an earlier time when there was no UIM refit.

What the ATG would do is let you use EM and still have seeking weapons, but yeah its almost pointless to launch at long range when your moving double the speed of your drones.

By Mike Kenyon (Mikek) on Tuesday, May 21, 2013 - 03:11 pm: Edit

Fair, I had it at 165 for some reason in my head ... but that just reduces the 1-4 hit to 1-3 and the Klinks are still doing 12 to the Zin 3 (avg.) while the Zin drones (now all 12s at best) fall behind and the Klingon are running downhill.

If the Zin does EM, they're slowing down ... considerably. What they put into EM, the Klingon puts into ECCM and they're now at the same speed with no shift. If they put up EM and max ECCM, they're down to speed 15 (at best) and while the Klingon will have a 1 shift on the Zin, they're never catching up the it's impeding any return or defensive fire from the Zin.